Was Chris Kreski's run really that great?

[HarleyQuinn 0]

I was looking through the results and was surprised at some of the tripe that Kreski had written during that period. Everybody loves him for the Triple H/Kurt Angle/Stephanie love triangle but rarely seem to point out anything else.

 

The Negatives

- Continued the Chyna/Chris Jericho as co-IC Champions and developed it into a feud

- Basically relegated the Women's Title to gimmick matches like gravy bowl, pudding, etc. Generally treated the women like crap

- Featured Fabulous Moolah/Mae Young a ton. Including the Mark Henry/Mae Young angle

- Test disappeared from the main event scene and was settled into the Hardcore/European Title ranks

- The Kane/X-Pac feud with Tori in the middle. Also Kane & Undertaker feuding/teaming

- Tazz comes in and beats Angle at Royal Rumble, then virtually disappears as 2000 continues. Ends up feuding with Jerry Lawler while teaming with Raven.

- WrestleMania 2000 (Foley's retirement/return)

- DX "surviving" under X-Pac & Road Dogg

- Right To Censor stable

- Naked Mideon

 

The Positives

- The Triple H/Kurt Angle/Stephanie love triangle

- The Triple H/Cactus Jack Feud. Triple H in general during the year.

- The Tag Team Scene with NAO, Hardy Boys, Dudley Boys, Too Cool, Acolytes, and Edge/Christian

- The evolution of Kurt Angle. The Angle/Benoit/Jericho feud

- The introduction/integration of The Radicals

- Crash Holly as Hardcore Champion (Some could argue this belongs in the other category)

- Getting Steve Blackman over while pairing him with Al Snow

- Eddie Guerrero and Chyna

 

I had forgotten he was the mind behind Naked Mideon and Mark Henry/Mae Young. For the good he did, he had a lot of crap.

[Enigma 0]

A lot of the stuff you blame Kreski for he either wasn't involved in or had no control over.

 

The degrading T&A women's matches were started by Vince Russo, but they proved to be rating grabbers. So McMahon wanted them to continue.

 

Moolah & Mae started showing up while Russo was still in charge. They have always been favorites of McMahon, so when they showed up and helped people get over (Dudleys), they were constantly invited back. Likewise, Mae & Mark Henry was all Russo.

 

Test disappeared from the main event scene because he suffered a really bad broken nose and then tried to come back from it too early and re-broke it. It took a while for it to heal. When he came back, things had passed him by.

 

Tazz disappearing was because he suffered some sort of arm injury that required him to be out for a while. The fact of the matter is that Tazz was never going to get pushed seriously because McMahon has a wedgie about people with his height.

 

Right to Censor was 100% McMahon. He came up with that on his own as a way to villainize the Parents Television Council, who were doing everything they can to get sponsors to stop advertising on WWF.

 

Naked Mideon didn't start becoming an actual wrestler until Stephanie took over.

[HarleyQuinn 0]

Eh... it seems a little "easy" to say that he had no control over it when he was the head writer under McMahon. If you're gonna give him credit for the good, he needs to take some credit for the bad as well. The "blame" on Russo is laughable when look at the time line of events. Also keep in mind that Kreski learned from Russo and wrote for MTV... so some of the "Russo" ideas were really his.

 

October 5th, 1999: Vince Russo signs and leaves for WCW. That's 2 months before...

 

December 13th, 1999: The Mae Young/Mark Henry stuff really kicked off. Again, well after Russo was long gone and at WCW. This was all Kreski, regardless if McMahon had the final say or not.

 

Kreski could've changed the image of the Women's Title regardless of Vince. As bad as Stephanie is touted, she made the Women's Title matter starting in 2001.

 

Fair enough on Test and Tazz but Kreski still could've developed Tazz into something. Heck, they had a brief run of Tazz vs. Austin later so it's hard to say that McMahon is the sole reason he never would've done anything. Kreski was pushing Benoit & Jericho just fine during that period. Tazz is listed at 5'9" while Benoit was 5'11" so there wasn't a huge difference, height wise (looks obviously were different though).

 

As for the Right To Censor, it came from McMahon but Kreski still had to put it into action. Head writer and all.

 

Naked Mideon first appeared on September 12th, 2000 well during Kreski's run during a Heat taping. Naked Mideon wrestled on October 22nd, 2000 and was starting to make appearances prior to that. So it wasn't all Stephanie McMahon.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

Strong ratings and a product that holds up today, at least from a quality stand point? Yeah, I'd say that's at least a better than average run...

 

Eh... it seems a little "easy" to say that he had no control over it when he was the head writer under McMahon.

 

Key point; he was head writer under Vince, so anything Vince or the family were involved, they would have been in charge in. Not to mention the fact that Vince was the one to sign off on everything so ultimately, as it always is, the blame or credit goes to Vince.

 

December 13th, 1999: The Mae Young/Mark Henry stuff really kicked off. Again, well after Russo was long gone and at WCW. This was all Kreski, regardless if McMahon had the final say or not.

 

That one you probably can blame on Vince. Even if you disregard the fact that it's the type of humor he gets off on, they were trying to run Mark Henry off with that Mae Young stuff. It wasn't like the Henry/Young stuff was written with the idea it would make good TV or anything, even if Vince might have thought otherwise; it was written so as to get Henry to quit.

 

Fair enough on Test and Tazz but Kreski still could've developed Tazz into something. Heck, they had a brief run of Tazz vs. Austin later so it's hard to say that McMahon is the sole reason he never would've done anything. Kreski was pushing Benoit & Jericho just fine during that period. Tazz is listed at 5'9" while Benoit was 5'11" so there wasn't a huge difference, height wise (looks obviously were different though)

 

The problem with this is: they didn't want Tazz suplexing people on their heads, the top guys weren't going to take his suplexes anyway, and what they did with Tazz as the plucky underdog is the role Vince wanted him to play. Regardless of what they 'could' have done with Tazz, those three factors, the last one especially, made it unlikely that anything other than what ended up happening was going to happen. Benoit was only a few inches taller, that is true. But Benoit was also far superior to Tazz in the ring and had a great reputation in terms of ability, safety, etc. You can't really compare Benoit and Tazz, because in the minds of Vince and those would have to work with them, they could do more with Benoit and were willing to do more anyway.

 

As for the Right To Censor, it came from McMahon but Kreski still had to put it into action. Head writer and all.

 

It was Vince's pet project and he was hands on and was able to put it on air regardless of what anyone said. Company owner and all.

 

 

 

 

[Jingus 0]

Kreski was a soap opera type of writer, but more in terms of storyline than in raunch. You can probably blame Vince for most of the lingering Attitude angles, as he supposedly finds that stuff hilarious.

 

I wouldn't put the Chyna/Jericho thing under the negative column. Aside from the ugly and gratuitous finger-breaking angle, I thought the whole thing was a lot of fun. It didn't hurt Jericho's credibility at all, and dragged Chyna to some of the best matches she ever had.

 

Benoit was also far superior to Tazz in the ring and had a great reputation in terms of ability, safety, etc.

Safety? I've never understood that complaint about Taz. Who did he ever actually hurt? Considering the number of rough matches Taz worked with Sabu, it's ironic that Benoit was the one who broke Sabu's neck. His stuff just looks dangerous, and I imagine the Undertakers and HHHs of the world taking one look at his suplexes and going "fuck that, I ain't going up for that shit".

 

Also, why has Taz always been singled out for the height jokes? He was only two inches shorter than Benoit, and was the exact same height as Eddie Guerrero. Short by WWF standards, sure, but you don't hear nearly as many midget jokes about other guys the same size.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

Benoit was also far superior to Tazz in the ring and had a great reputation in terms of ability, safety, etc.

Safety? I've never understood that complaint about Taz. Who did he ever actually hurt? Considering the number of rough matches Taz worked with Sabu, it's ironic that Benoit was the one who broke Sabu's neck. His stuff just looks dangerous, and I imagine the Undertakers and HHHs of the world taking one look at his suplexes and going "fuck that, I ain't going up for that shit".

As you said, his stuff looks dangerous and that's all that really matters. Remember the scene from Beyond the Mat, when Mike Modest hits, ironically, Finlay's Celtic Cross, and Vince thinks he botched the move?

[Papacita 0]

I wouldn't put the Chyna/Jericho thing under the negative column. Aside from the ugly and gratuitous finger-breaking angle, I thought the whole thing was a lot of fun. It didn't hurt Jericho's credibility at all, and dragged Chyna to some of the best matches she ever had.

 

Saves me the trouble of arguing it. Thank you, Jingus.

 

Even though I've come to appreciate his stuff more since Steph took control, I didn't care for much of Kreski's stuff at the time. While he had more than a few enjoyable, entertaining things during his run, I absolutely hated his approach to TV, because shows really started to become overly-scripted and predictable (probably the most annoying trait of that era for me, and it's the one that seems to have had the most lasting effect). One of my least favorite periods in WWF history was from April to about June 00, with the McMahon-Helmsley 'Fact-gime' running wild and the constant booking of handicap matches, lumberjack matches and table matches (notice how they took what was a potentially money-drawing match around Royal Rumble time and had by April made it into something completely meaningless). While I enjoyed their PPV matches, I found much of the booking of the Rock/HHH feud to be boring and meaningless, with every other show ending with either HHH laying out the Rock or vice versa, with no real drama to it. It was especially striking in contrast to Russo's stuff, since for better or worse, most episodes of Raw tended to stand out individually whereas most of Kreski's stuff (though I give him a lot of credit for the Radicals/Foley retirement stuff and the one episode where Jericho won the belt) just seemed to run together for me.

 

He had more than his share of positives, as I enjoyed most PPVs during his run, and some fantastic comedy skits with Head Cheese and Crash (Though I get the feeling that Gewirtz had a lot more to do with these than he's given credit for), and he also did a good job of what I felt at the time was a bloated roster after the Radicals jump, but I never got what was so great about him that some people were begging for his return.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

Two words: storyline continuity.

 

Which reminds of the time they actually did bring in a continuity editor a year or two later, who promptly quit after a few weeks because there was such a total lack of continuity.

[Papacita 0]

Yeah, I'll give him that too, since that's been a pet peeve of mine since I was little. The highlight of his run for me was the HHH/Angle/Steph stuff, and a lot of it was because of the continuity. Even with that, I wouldn't put his run over Russo's circa 98 or even Heyman era Smackdown.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

Yeah, I'll give him that too, since that's been a pet peeve of mine since I was little. The highlight of his run for me was the HHH/Angle/Steph stuff, and a lot of it was because of the continuity. Even with that, I wouldn't put his run over Russo's circa 98 or even Heyman era Smackdown.

I think I'll vote for the guy whose stuff holds up today.

[Zack Malibu 0]

Test could be chalked up to not only being injury prone, but by being way too similar to Hunter for his liking, a la Jericho. It's been rumored that part of the reason Test became midcard fodder was partly for political reasons.

 

They didn't "run" with Austin and Tazz in 2001. It was almost like when the older Dudleys picked on Spike, until he finally stood his ground. The nerd told the bully where to shove it. I don't think it was setting up any type of serious Tazz run at all. I like the guy, but the powers that be didn't have faith in him as a top guy, and beating Angle at Rumble 2000 was not the same as beating Angle in say, 2003. He barely meant anything to them at that point.

[Papacita 0]

Yeah, I'll give him that too, since that's been a pet peeve of mine since I was little. The highlight of his run for me was the HHH/Angle/Steph stuff, and a lot of it was because of the continuity. Even with that, I wouldn't put his run over Russo's circa 98 or even Heyman era Smackdown.

I think I'll vote for the guy whose stuff holds up today.

You wouldn't say that storyline leading to the Rock's turn at Survivor Series 98 holds up today?

 

[HarleyQuinn 0]

I like the guy, but the powers that be didn't have faith in him as a top guy, and beating Angle at Rumble 2000 was not the same as beating Angle in say, 2003. He barely meant anything to them at that point.

 

Well, it was Angle's first loss on TV. A fairly big thing in it's own right given the relatively few "streaks" that occur for a wrestler making their debut in the WWE. Angle actually got taken out on a stretcher too... it's clear that they were trying to make Tazz debut with something of an impact.

 

Also Russo's 1998 was really strong. I'd argue it had more high end stuff than Kreski's run, while Kreski arguably had better in the mid-card and upper mid-card.

- You had Austin winning the WWF Title and rolling into Austin vs. McMahon at its peak

- Mankind reverting to Dude Love and managing to get that character over within the Austin/McMahon feud

- On the side, you had a strong DX vs. NOD feud with Triple H vs. The Rock and D'Lo vs. X-Pac being particular highlights. Rock gets built up to the point where he can turn heel at Survivor Series and starts a memorable feud with Mankind.

- You had Kane being built up for months and finally had Undertaker vs. Kane at WM14

[bob_barron 0]

Yeah, I'll give him that too, since that's been a pet peeve of mine since I was little. The highlight of his run for me was the HHH/Angle/Steph stuff, and a lot of it was because of the continuity. Even with that, I wouldn't put his run over Russo's circa 98 or even Heyman era Smackdown.

I think I'll vote for the guy whose stuff holds up today.

 

The 1998 stuff holds up. 99....not so much

[MillenniumMan831 0]

Something about that horrible Rock Bottom ppv that sort of killed the fun-Russo era and started the convulted-notsofun-Russo era.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

Something about that horrible Rock Bottom ppv that sort of killed the fun-Russo era and started the convoluted-notsofun-Russo era.

Was it the beyond horrible screwjob in the Mankind/Rock title match? That finish killed the crowd so dead they were silent for Austin's match that followed, and an Austin match with no heat simply didn't happen then.

[MillenniumMan831 0]

Sounds about right. Plus, that entire card was just garbage. I don't remember any specifics offhand but yuck, nothing seemed to go right.

[Enigma 0]

Combine Debra in the ring stripping down to nothing but a g-string only be covered up by the Blue Blazer and the bullshit finish of Rock/Mankind, and you had a bad night as a fan.

[strummer 0]

I would say the post Survivor Series 98 RAW to Rock Bottom build is where the Russo era really started to get convoluted and stopped being as fun. The introduction of the Ministry of Darkness and the Sable heel turn are two angles in early 99 that come to mind that really started the sharp decline and the feeling that Russo was writing to entertain himself.

 

as much criticism as he gets pretty much all of 98 is gold and brought back a passion for wrestling that I hadn't had in nearly 10 years (although I continued watching during that time)

[Ed Wood Caulfield 0]

Something about that horrible Rock Bottom ppv that sort of killed the fun-Russo era and started the convoluted-notsofun-Russo era.

Was it the beyond horrible screwjob in the Mankind/Rock title match? That finish killed the crowd so dead they were silent for Austin's match that followed, and an Austin match with no heat simply didn't happen then.

 

That crowd was weird during the Rock/Mankind match. When he came out, EVERYONE in the arena went nuts and gave him a huge babyface pop, but then 5 minutes later, EVERYONE in the arena chanted "Rocky Sucks!" It wasn't like Cena where it's 50/50. Every fan in the arena couldn't make up their mind that night. It was like they were all schizophrenic.

[ivpvideos 0]

The thing that truly killed Tazz's push in the WWE was the signing of the Radicals. He was put over huge in his debut against Angle, and then a few weeks later WWE has four new guys to push hard and Tazz gets put on the backburner.

[Damaramu 0]

as much criticism as he gets pretty much all of 98 is gold and brought back a passion for wrestling that I hadn't had in nearly 10 years (although I continued watching during that time)

 

See maybe I'm weird. 98 was fun and kept me interested. But, after 96(where i was still a hardcore mark, but could tell some of the stuff i was watching was crappy) I think 97 is what really got me going strong. Something about the Hart Foundation/Everyone Else feud just grabbed me.

[Papacita 0]

Yeah, the Hart Foundation period is flat out my favorite period as a fan, so you're definitely not alone there. It was one of the rare times, for me anyway, that you actually felt like you were part of the show. Especially when they'd go to Canada one week and everyone would be Pro-Bret and anti-US, which would just motivate you to boo them extra hard the next time they did a show in the states. 97 and 98 are really close for me in terms of actual enjoyment.

 

The thing that truly killed Tazz's push in the WWE was the signing of the Radicals. He was put over huge in his debut against Angle, and then a few weeks later WWE has four new guys to push hard and Tazz gets put on the backburner.

 

I agree; they really did seem to want to push Tazz before they came in. Wasn't he even put in a match with the Rock in his first or second appearance on Raw?

[HarleyQuinn 0]

The thing that truly killed Tazz's push in the WWE was the signing of the Radicals. He was put over huge in his debut against Angle, and then a few weeks later WWE has four new guys to push hard and Tazz gets put on the backburner.

 

I agree; they really did seem to want to push Tazz before they came in. Wasn't he even put in a match with the Rock in his first or second appearance on Raw?

 

His first 5 matches

1: Royal Rumble - Tazz beat Kurt Angle

2: Tazz beat Rodney/Pete Gas on Smackdown

3: Rock b. Kurt Angle but Tazz ran in and clotheslined Rock by accident

4: Tazz was in a triple threat match with Rock and Kurt Angle (I think this is what you're thinking of Papacita)

 

The interesting thing is during this period, Tazz was semi-feuding with both Kurt Angle and Big Bossman/Albert. Unfortunately, what originally looked like a Tazz vs. Angle feud was transitioned into Angle feuding with Jericho (which later included Benoit).

[cabbageboy 0]

Here's the thing that makes it hard to judge Kreski's booking. Do we know exactly what he did and did not write for the shows? There isn't this textbook "Kreski style" of TV like there is with Russo. Some of the stuff that Kreski was credited with like the HHH/Steph/Angle storyline to me shows that the guy in the end didn't know what he was doing, since he apparently never thought of a decent ending to it. Austin was run down by the limo in Nov. 1999, when Kreski was first writing TV and you're telling me he couldn't think up something better than a Rikishi heel turn in the 9 months that Austin was out?

 

Kreski had the good fortune of having a ton of major names on the roster while he was writing TV. Hell, take a look at that WWF roster of 2000. It was unbelievably loaded. Any of us on this board could say take HHH and The Rock and have them wrestle for 4 straight PPVs, or let Jericho and Benoit hammer each other a bunch of times. Kreski basically was given the keys to a sports car and told not to wreck it. He changed the oil on time, did the maintenance, but by Oct. 2000 he got in a fender bender and Vince took the car away and let daddy's little girl drive.

[HarleyQuinn 0]

Here's the thing that makes it hard to judge Kreski's booking. Do we know exactly what he did and did not write for the shows? There isn't this textbook "Kreski style" of TV like there is with Russo.

 

Kreski had the good fortune of having a ton of major names on the roster while he was writing TV. Hell, take a look at that WWF roster of 2000. It was unbelievably loaded. Any of us on this board could say take HHH and The Rock and have them wrestle for 4 straight PPVs, or let Jericho and Benoit hammer each other a bunch of times.

 

This is an interesting post. Is there any proof that Kreski came up with most (all?) of the Love Triangle? Keep in mind that Triple H was already starting to get his say and Stephanie was involved too, eventually becoming head booker herself. Are there any quotes from that time period that give Kreski the credit or is it an assumption because it was a good angle that used continuity and he was the head booker?

 

Also as Cabbageboy said, Kreski had a boatload of talent and didn't really develop anybody new outside of Kurt Angle. He had the following at his disposal: Triple H, Undertaker, Mick Foley, Rock, Chris Benoit, Chris Jericho, Eddie Guerrero, Kurt Angle along with other upper midcard fixtures like Kane and Big Show. Even Austin returned during the end of his writing period.

 

Who did he build up? He made Kurt Angle into a superstar (despite the botched angle). He had a chance with Test but that never materialized. He got guys like Crash Holly and Steve Blackman over to low midcard levels at best. He had the chance to make Rikishi into a main event talent ala Angle early in 2000 but that never happened. The tag teams never really went further than the mid card level and largely resorted to gimmick matches (Tables, TLC) to keep the division hot.

 

For the most part, he ran with proven stars and had a "fresh" batch of guys who had already proven themselves at times in WCW. Keep in mind that when the Radicals jumped over, Benoit had just won the WCW World Title.

 

Russo's gift was his ability to take a proven guy like Mankind and throw him into a feud with an established WWF star like an Undertaker. Take a Steve Austin and slowly build him before throwing him against Bret Hart. Team Triple H up with Shawn Michaels and let him get a rub from Shawn and Bret, by virtue of the Hart Foundation.

 

He tried to do this in WCW at times as well: Kidman and Hogan, Bam Bam Bigelow and Goldberg, Booker T and Scott Steiner but all of his other lame gimmicks and ideas killed any chance of those helping turn WCW around.

[Zack Malibu 0]

Bam Bam Bigelow and Goldberg had nothing to do with Russo. Bam Bam debuted in the fall of 1998, a year before Russo was ever hired.

[Enigma 0]

Here's the thing that makes it hard to judge Kreski's booking. Do we know exactly what he did and did not write for the shows? There isn't this textbook "Kreski style" of TV like there is with Russo. Some of the stuff that Kreski was credited with like the HHH/Steph/Angle storyline to me shows that the guy in the end didn't know what he was doing, since he apparently never thought of a decent ending to it. Austin was run down by the limo in Nov. 1999, when Kreski was first writing TV and you're telling me he couldn't think up something better than a Rikishi heel turn in the 9 months that Austin was out?

 

Kreski had the good fortune of having a ton of major names on the roster while he was writing TV. Hell, take a look at that WWF roster of 2000. It was unbelievably loaded. Any of us on this board could say take HHH and The Rock and have them wrestle for 4 straight PPVs, or let Jericho and Benoit hammer each other a bunch of times. Kreski basically was given the keys to a sports car and told not to wreck it. He changed the oil on time, did the maintenance, but by Oct. 2000 he got in a fender bender and Vince took the car away and let daddy's little girl drive.

 

Um, no. Kreski left the company voluntarily because he got a lucaritive job offer from MTV in September 2000. Despite what the topic subtitle says, Stephanie was in charge by the time Unforgiven 2000 rolled around. Vince needed someone to replace him and he thought the time was now to start using Stephanie in an important position. She took control of her angle with HHH and Angle while it was still red hot and totally derailed it. As many said earlier, it was probably derailed with influence by HHH because he doesn't like being a babyface.

 

Kreski was nowhere near the company anymore when the love triangle abruptly ended. That was 100% Stephanie McMahon.

[Papacita 0]

Is there any proof that Kreski came up with most (all?) of the Love Triangle?

 

Now that you mention it, this was posted in the blog of one of WWE's creative members a while back.

 

As I understand it, Brian [Gewirtz] is the guy behind virtually all of The Rock's insanely awesome promos from 2000 or so on, which rocked the house. As pretty much the only person in the company with a background in Hollywood (now that David Lagana is no longer on the team), Brian's also an invaluable source for quality storytelling. He was the guy behind the HHH-Angle-Stephanie soap opera in 2000 that was absolutely awesome before it ended abruptly ...

 

http://weblogs.newsday.com/sports/speciale...brian.html#more

 

Dunno how true all that is, since, IIRC, he was on the team about 2 years or so after Kreski's run ended.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

Kreski provided great continuity and product of good-to-great quality that holds up today. Vince had to sign off on it all, but he did the same with every head writer yet the results are quite different. Russo got high ratings, but product quality wasn't all that great and a lot of his stuff doesn't age well at all. Stephanie hasn't shown either high ratings or consistent product quality. Of those three head writers, I'd take Kreski over Russo or Stephanie any day.

 

Yes, Kreski had a boatload of talented names to work with. So did Russo and Stephanie, with Russo having Austin at his peak and Stephanie having him for his big return. Kreski had Austin to work with for about a month before Austin was sidelined and Kreski was gone when Austin returned. Whose work holds up better? Whose work is of an overall higher standard?

 

You can question who Kreski built up, but WWE has, for some time, shown that they'll rarely build anyone up unless they have to. Even if you take the position that Kreski didn't build anyone up, WWE hasn't exactly been forward thinking in that department since he left, either. Cena's only around because Stephanie happened to catch his rap act on a tour bus. If not for that, Cena was set to be let go.

 

The tag teams never really went further than the mid card level and largely resorted to gimmick matches (Tables, TLC) to keep the division hot.

 

Vince has never seen tag teams as main event players, so you can't blame that one on Kreski.

 

Russo's gift was his ability to take a proven guy like Mankind and throw him into a feud with an established WWF star like an Undertaker.

 

Aren't you downplaying Kreski's contribution for doing exactly the same thing?

 

He (Russo) tried to do this in WCW at times as well: Kidman and Hogan, Bam Bam Bigelow and Goldberg, Booker T and Scott Steiner but all of his other lame gimmicks and ideas killed any chance of those helping turn WCW around.

 

What killed it is that Russo is strictly an ideas man; when having to actually book, he's consistently shown to be totally clueless.