Monday Night Raw Discussion

[Matt Young 0]

MVP defends his United States title against Matt Hardy; there's a Divas battle royal for a title shot, and Ric Flair appears! Huzzah!

 

I'll be watching on DVR delay since I'm watching a movie now.

[Diamonddust 0]

Flair is forgetting his history...

 

No World Title in the WWE has ever changed hands in a steel cage. I kind of wish someone would play up that stat a little bit more.

[Diamonddust 0]

John Cena just made one of my favorite movie lines of all time look completely obvious and sound unfunny.

[JPopStarKami 0]

Flair is forgetting his history...

 

No World Title in the WWE has ever changed hands in a steel cage. I kind of wish someone would play up that stat a little bit more.

 

Yes it has. Jericho vs. Batista.

[Diamonddust 0]

Flair is forgetting his history...

 

No World Title in the WWE has ever changed hands in a steel cage. I kind of wish someone would play up that stat a little bit more.

 

Yes it has. Jericho vs. Batista.

 

My mistake... forgot about that and remembered the stat going into that match.

[fisticuffs 0]

The Miz/Cena thing reminds me of Jericho/Goldberg from 1998.

[theone 0]

okay, I'm laughing pretty hard at this rap of Miz's

[Diamonddust 0]

The Miz has definitely taken this angle and ran with it.

 

Using Lawler as a "block" was a great cowardly heel move as well.

[fisticuffs 0]

Has anyone had more finishing moves than the Big Show? It seems like he's trying to get a new one over every few months.

[Thanks for the Fish 0]

Flair should have stayed retired. When the wwe should be making new stars, they have Flair come back and eat television time.

 

You don't get an epic send-off retirement and come back a year and a bit later.

 

Raw is virtually unwatchable these days outside of Miz and you know Miz will get jobbed out in 10 seconds to Cena eventually.

[Jingus 0]

Yes it has. Jericho vs. Batista.

My mistake... forgot about that and remembered the stat going into that match.

There's a few other examples which kinda sorta apply. Like, if the Elimination Chamber counts as a cage, there have been multiple title changes inside that. Edge's second MITB title win happened inside a cage. One of the three matches where HHH beat Shawn Michaels for the title at Armageddon '02 was a cage match. Jericho/Batista is the only time that the world championship has changed hands in a cage which was an ordinary match in a traditional cage under standard rules.

[Nitro 24/7 0]

Flair should have stayed retired. When the wwe should be making new stars, they have Flair come back and eat television time.

 

You don't get an epic send-off retirement and come back a year and a bit later.

 

Raw is virtually unwatchable these days outside of Miz and you know Miz will get jobbed out in 10 seconds to Cena eventually.

 

 

Why?

 

Ric LOVES the Wrestling Business. He said he still feels great, he looks pretty damn good for a 60 year old and he is a true Icon. That is something WWE really lacks these days, is Icons. Austin, Rock, Hogan, Bret, Macho, Warrior, Bruno, Piper, hell even Goldberg.. some of the biggest and most entertaining names ever in wrestling are not involved with WWE in any capacity for one reason or another. Flair is a legend, a hall of famer, a wrestling Icon...Anything he can bring and add to WWE TV should be a welcome addition. I watched Raw tonight specifically to see Flair on Raw and loved every minute of it. He sure as hell can still talk, hes still entertaining and Im pretty damn sure he can still put on a good match.

 

Sadly Ric Flair will be dead one day and at age 60, his chances of in ring physicality will not be an option in a few years, but if he is looking and feeling great and still wants to wrestle a little bit and or appear on WWE TV and entertain us by being "Naitch" then he should do that. Why not? We only get 1 life to live.

 

Alot of the greats in sports and entertainment say there gonna retire, but miss there former profession so much they make a comeback. Michael Jordan, Brett Farve, Evander Holyfield, and Terry Funk all come to mind. Sometimes a picture perfect ending to an amazing career like Jordans final jump shot against the Jazz in the NBA Finals, is such a great moment you want them to stay retired on top, but if they wanna come back...who cares? We benefit as fans and they get to do what they love.

 

I look at Rics HOF sendoff last year as Ric Flair being honored and celebrated for his 30+ year amazing wrestling career coming to an end on a full time basis. Which it probably has. I dont think were gonna see Ric booked on every house show or wrestling every week but hopefully if he re signs with WWE we get to see Ric wrestle once in a while and when not wrestling then at least be on TV in some kind of role. He mentioned Europe was offering him boat loads of cash to wrestle some matches there so who knows for sure if he will be back with WWE. I hope he is though.

 

If he does re sign with WWE Im thinking we might actually see a Ric Flair heel turn some point soon with Ric joining Legacy.

 

Of all the big names I mentioned before, I dont think any single one of them truly loves the pro wrestling business like Ric Flair does. I watched his HOF speech again the other day and when the girls were walking him out on stage it looked like Ric was heading to the electric chair. He never wanted to retire. He says that all the time. He appreciated the sendoff and it was the greatest weekend of his pro life but he never wanted to retire. Any interview hes in, whether it was his Shoot interview, his dvd, radio interviews, etc He always ends up crying when he talks about not wrestling anymore. The man LOVES the business and doesnt want to leave it.

 

Also WWE is indeed making plenty of new stars. Most of the company is young newer guys. They definitely out number the older veterans like Taker and HBK. Nobody will probably reach the "new star" level attraction that The Rock and Stone Cold had but then again that was 10 years ago, the wrestling boom period is long gone, and "making a new star" is not as easy as making chocolate chip cookies. Having Ric Flair interact with the young new guys is great for the business as well. I love seeing legends in some type of ongoing role on WWE TV. The young guys can certainly learn a thing or two from them and Flair is one of probably only a very few big names who want anything to do with pro wrestling anymore.

 

Look at the WWE roster and name a time when the WWE roster was as young as it is right now. You wont be able to do it because the answer is never.

 

You have your current mega WWE Stars (like it or not)

 

John Cena

Undertaker

HHH

HBK

Jeff Hardy

Batista

Randy Orton

Edge

Chris Jericho

Rey Mysterio

Big Show

Matt Hardy

 

then you have a nice lineup of young great talent

 

Jack Swagger

John Morrison

The Miz

CM Punk

Kofi Kingston

Christian

MVP

Kennedy

Evan Bourne

Shelton Benjamin

Umaga

Mike Knox

Legacy (Cody and Ted)

HF2.0 (Natty, Tyson, DH)

 

The WWE Roster could very well be as talented as it ever has been but people might not see it because the talent is spread out among 3 exclusive shows.

 

The attitude era was alot of sleeze and promos with some decent matches here and there but I dont see Billy Gunn and Road Dogg being better inside the ring then John Morrison and Jack Swagger. Sure Austin, Rock and Foley were huge draws and merchandise sellers but the undercard was a complete shitfest until The Radicalz arrived. Look at a ppv like Judgement Day last night and tell me a ppv from the Attitude era of late 1997-2000 that had better talent and "wrestling" then last nights Judgement Day. Good luck going through Too Cool and Albert matches.

 

Matter of fact..I think I will save the rest for another post. Comparing and evaluating todays current WWE Roster to rosters of the past.

[sluggo 0]

Big Show also used the dragon sleeper for a while until Taker took it over.

[Jingus 0]

Look at the WWE roster and name a time when the WWE roster was as young as it is right now. You wont be able to do it because the answer is never.

Wrong. There's only one main eventer in the company who is under 30, Randy Orton, and he's 29. Unless you count a guy like CM Punk as a "main eventer", who did a clean job in his hometown in the opening match, or Jack Swagger, who didn't even defend his "world championship" on PPV half the time. The top echelon of main eventers have an older average age now than they did in the Attitude era or the early Hulkamania era, that's just fact.

[haws bah gawd 0]

Really though, how many finishers has he gone through? I may even be forgetting a couple.

 

The Showstopper - chokeslam

Missle Dropkick - used during 'Show's "slim days" in late 1999, most notably in his match against Viscera

The Final Cut - Eye of the Hurricane

The Alley Oop - Flapjack from a Powerbomb position

Dragonsleeper - used for a couple weeks, before Undertaker decided to start using it on his own and name it "Takin' Care of Business"

Spear (aka WWE generic big man finisher #42-B) - Used a couple times while teaming with Kane

Knockout Punch - because WWE can't decide from one week to the next whether Undertaker or 'Show is "the best pure striker in WWE"

Camel Clutch - since 'Show is now apparently a submission specialist because he's challenged John Cena to a "match he can't possibly win" at Extreme Rules

 

Sometimes I wonder if I watch RAW because I enjoy it, or out of habit. Wrestling has been a Monday Night tradition with me for the past 15 years, and since I'm not a football fan, there isn't much else on. Cena's promos are just painful to sit through anymore. I can't even remember what movie he was referencing last night, but after a couple seconds, I decided to flip over to the same Family Guy reruns that TBS always shows. The Santina stuff was funny for one night (OK 2 since he started using the Billy and Chuck theme the night after WM25), but now that he's dropped the Miss Wrestlemania crown to Vickie, hopefully that's over with.

 

 

[johnson316cane 0]

Really though, how many finishers has he gone through? I may even be forgetting a couple.

 

The Showstopper - chokeslam

Missle Dropkick - used during 'Show's "slim days" in late 1999, most notably in his match against Viscera

The Final Cut - Eye of the Hurricane

The Alley Oop - Flapjack from a Powerbomb position

Dragonsleeper - used for a couple weeks, before Undertaker decided to start using it on his own and name it "Takin' Care of Business"

Spear (aka WWE generic big man finisher #42-B) - Used a couple times while teaming with Kane

Knockout Punch - because WWE can't decide from one week to the next whether Undertaker or 'Show is "the best pure striker in WWE"

Camel Clutch - since 'Show is now apparently a submission specialist because he's challenged John Cena to a "match he can't possibly win" at Extreme Rules

 

Sometimes I wonder if I watch RAW because I enjoy it, or out of habit. Wrestling has been a Monday Night tradition with me for the past 15 years, and since I'm not a football fan, there isn't much else on. Cena's promos are just painful to sit through anymore. I can't even remember what movie he was referencing last night, but after a couple seconds, I decided to flip over to the same Family Guy reruns that TBS always shows. The Santina stuff was funny for one night (OK 2 since he started using the Billy and Chuck theme the night after WM25), but now that he's dropped the Miss Wrestlemania crown to Vickie, hopefully that's over with.

 

You forgot the Hoglog. It was basically like the Eye of the Hurricane but with a legdrop instead. Also, he used the Cobra Clutch and a Swinging Cobra Clutch Slam when he was in ECW.

[haws bah gawd 0]

Really though, how many finishers has he gone through? I may even be forgetting a couple.

 

The Showstopper - chokeslam

Missle Dropkick - used during 'Show's "slim days" in late 1999, most notably in his match against Viscera

The Final Cut - Eye of the Hurricane

The Alley Oop - Flapjack from a Powerbomb position

Dragonsleeper - used for a couple weeks, before Undertaker decided to start using it on his own and name it "Takin' Care of Business"

Spear (aka WWE generic big man finisher #42-B) - Used a couple times while teaming with Kane

Knockout Punch - because WWE can't decide from one week to the next whether Undertaker or 'Show is "the best pure striker in WWE"

Camel Clutch - since 'Show is now apparently a submission specialist because he's challenged John Cena to a "match he can't possibly win" at Extreme Rules

 

Sometimes I wonder if I watch RAW because I enjoy it, or out of habit. Wrestling has been a Monday Night tradition with me for the past 15 years, and since I'm not a football fan, there isn't much else on. Cena's promos are just painful to sit through anymore. I can't even remember what movie he was referencing last night, but after a couple seconds, I decided to flip over to the same Family Guy reruns that TBS always shows. The Santina stuff was funny for one night (OK 2 since he started using the Billy and Chuck theme the night after WM25), but now that he's dropped the Miss Wrestlemania crown to Vickie, hopefully that's over with.

 

You forgot the Hoglog. It was basically like the Eye of the Hurricane but with a legdrop instead. Also, he used the Cobra Clutch and a Swinging Cobra Clutch Slam when he was in ECW.

 

Damn, how could I forget those? Alright, now the list looks even more sad.

 

The Showstopper - standard Chokeslam

Missle Dropkick - used during 'Show's "slim days" in late 1999, most notably in his match against Viscera

The Final Cut - Eye of the Hurricane

The Alley Oop - Flapjack from a Powerbomb position

Dragonsleeper - used for a couple weeks, before Undertaker decided to start using it on his own and name it "Takin' Care of Business"

Spear (aka WWE generic big man finisher #42-B) - Used a couple times while teaming with Kane

Hog Log - The previously mentioned Final Cut, but using one of his legs rather than his arm to drop the opponent

Cobra Clutch Backbreaker - Sometimes this would simply be used as a submission. Other times though (and this definitely looked more devastating than the Showstopper, IMO), he would lift the opponent just prior to the submission, drop their back across his knee, then throw them off to the side, sometimes resulting in the opponent doing a full spin before hitting the ground.

Knockout Punch - because WWE can't decide from one week to the next whether Undertaker or 'Show is "the best pure striker in WWE"

Camel Clutch - since 'Show is now apparently a submission specialist because he's challenged John Cena to a "match he can't possibly win" at Extreme Rules

[Jericholic82 0]

Anyone else bored to tears by RAW last night? I watched it on DVR after the Yankees game was over so it was kinda late and was tired anyway, but the show did little to keep me awake. So we get the predictable Batista/Orton and Cena/Show rematches YAWN. Although Show lost clean at JD so he really doesn't have a gripe like Batista does. Extreme Rules seems like it may break the recent string of good PPVS (I guess outside of Mania since we didn't seem to get a consensus on that). With WWE going PG on us, it's kinda useless to have such a PPV, since there will be no blood and tamer fighting.

[johnson316cane 0]

Really though, how many finishers has he gone through? I may even be forgetting a couple.

 

The Showstopper - chokeslam

Missle Dropkick - used during 'Show's "slim days" in late 1999, most notably in his match against Viscera

The Final Cut - Eye of the Hurricane

The Alley Oop - Flapjack from a Powerbomb position

Dragonsleeper - used for a couple weeks, before Undertaker decided to start using it on his own and name it "Takin' Care of Business"

Spear (aka WWE generic big man finisher #42-B) - Used a couple times while teaming with Kane

Knockout Punch - because WWE can't decide from one week to the next whether Undertaker or 'Show is "the best pure striker in WWE"

Camel Clutch - since 'Show is now apparently a submission specialist because he's challenged John Cena to a "match he can't possibly win" at Extreme Rules

 

Sometimes I wonder if I watch RAW because I enjoy it, or out of habit. Wrestling has been a Monday Night tradition with me for the past 15 years, and since I'm not a football fan, there isn't much else on. Cena's promos are just painful to sit through anymore. I can't even remember what movie he was referencing last night, but after a couple seconds, I decided to flip over to the same Family Guy reruns that TBS always shows. The Santina stuff was funny for one night (OK 2 since he started using the Billy and Chuck theme the night after WM25), but now that he's dropped the Miss Wrestlemania crown to Vickie, hopefully that's over with.

 

You forgot the Hoglog. It was basically like the Eye of the Hurricane but with a legdrop instead. Also, he used the Cobra Clutch and a Swinging Cobra Clutch Slam when he was in ECW.

 

Damn, how could I forget those? Alright, now the list looks even more sad.

 

The Showstopper - standard Chokeslam

Missle Dropkick - used during 'Show's "slim days" in late 1999, most notably in his match against Viscera

The Final Cut - Eye of the Hurricane

The Alley Oop - Flapjack from a Powerbomb position

Dragonsleeper - used for a couple weeks, before Undertaker decided to start using it on his own and name it "Takin' Care of Business"

Spear (aka WWE generic big man finisher #42-B) - Used a couple times while teaming with Kane

Hog Log - The previously mentioned Final Cut, but using one of his legs rather than his arm to drop the opponent

Cobra Clutch Backbreaker - Sometimes this would simply be used as a submission. Other times though (and this definitely looked more devastating than the Showstopper, IMO), he would lift the opponent just prior to the submission, drop their back across his knee, then throw them off to the side, sometimes resulting in the opponent doing a full spin before hitting the ground.

Knockout Punch - because WWE can't decide from one week to the next whether Undertaker or 'Show is "the best pure striker in WWE"

Camel Clutch - since 'Show is now apparently a submission specialist because he's challenged John Cena to a "match he can't possibly win" at Extreme Rules

 

Do tag-team finishers count? If so, you got the double-chokeslam he used with Kane. I don’t remember if he and Undertaker or if he and Billy Gunn had double-team finishers though.

 

[Nitro 24/7 0]

Look at the WWE roster and name a time when the WWE roster was as young as it is right now. You wont be able to do it because the answer is never.

Wrong. There's only one main eventer in the company who is under 30, Randy Orton, and he's 29. Unless you count a guy like CM Punk as a "main eventer", who did a clean job in his hometown in the opening match, or Jack Swagger, who didn't even defend his "world championship" on PPV half the time. The top echelon of main eventers have an older average age now than they did in the Attitude era or the early Hulkamania era, that's just fact.

 

No theres nothing "wrong" about what I posted. I never said anything about any main eventers under 30. Although John Cena, Jeff Hardy and Randy Orton are younger then Austin, Foley and Undertaker were during the 90s boom, and are definitely younger then Hogan and Savage and Andre were during the 80s boom.

 

I said "Look at the WWE roster and name a time when the WWE roster was as young as it is right now. You wont be able to do it because the answer is never."

 

I never said anything about being under 30 or picking out certain groups of the roster and comparing it to rosters of yesteryear. Im saying the active roster in the entire company compared to years past.

 

The whole point of this is because someone said why is Flair eating up TV Time when wwe should be creating young new stars. They are, right here..

 

Jack Swagger

John Morrison

The Miz

CM Punk

Kofi Kingston

Christian

MVP

Kennedy

Evan Bourne

Shelton Benjamin

Umaga

Mike Knox

Legacy (Cody and Ted)

HF2.0 (Natty, Tyson, DH)

 

You can put quotes around "main eventer" and "world championship" all you want but I will take a Jack Swagger or CM Punk match over a Val Venis or Rikishi match any day of the week.

[Thanks for the Fish 0]

And my point was that the wwe could have plugged a up and comer into the feud alongside Batista and Cena rather than Flair. McMahon bellyaches, but they never seem to want and push a mid card guy unless it's against other midcard guys. What if MVP was tagging with Batista and Cena? It would elevate MVP AND Cody and Dibiase as they wouldn't seem so weak as to being in a 3-on-2 match and being the underdogs.

 

Whenever there is an injury angle, it's always a top guy taking out the injured top guy. Rather than gaining one mention of history in a future promo to sell a PPV you could mint a new upper carder. Rather than Batista getting taken out by Orton, why not have had Mike Knox take him out? Mike goes on an elevated run given the rub of taking out Batista and then there is a ready made Batista vs Knox program waiting when Batista returns.

 

If the wwe is trying to re-establish Big Show as a legitimate threat he simply should have went over Cena CLEAN at the ppv. But since Cena can't job unless it's to HHH, and eventhough the storyline is he's incredibly beat up, he still beats Big Show with his finisher. Why am I then supposed to care about Big SHow last night? Because he scared Miz out of the ring and beat up Lawler?

 

Raw is unwatchable because it's the same tired guys wrestling each other, giving the same interviews and having the same matches. And Ric Flair comes back and is inserted in a top angle and gets prime TV time that could have went to a kid looking for a break.

[Nitro 24/7 0]

And my point was that the wwe could have plugged a up and comer into the feud alongside Batista and Cena rather than Flair. McMahon bellyaches, but they never seem to want and push a mid card guy unless it's against other midcard guys. What if MVP was tagging with Batista and Cena? It would elevate MVP AND Cody and Dibiase as they wouldn't seem so weak as to being in a 3-on-2 match and being the underdogs.

 

Whenever there is an injury angle, it's always a top guy taking out the injured top guy. Rather than gaining one mention of history in a future promo to sell a PPV you could mint a new upper carder. Rather than Batista getting taken out by Orton, why not have had Mike Knox take him out? Mike goes on an elevated run given the rub of taking out Batista and then there is a ready made Batista vs Knox program waiting when Batista returns.

 

If the wwe is trying to re-establish Big Show as a legitimate threat he simply should have went over Cena CLEAN at the ppv. But since Cena can't job unless it's to HHH, and eventhough the storyline is he's incredibly beat up, he still beats Big Show with his finisher. Why am I then supposed to care about Big SHow last night? Because he scared Miz out of the ring and beat up Lawler?

 

Raw is unwatchable because it's the same tired guys wrestling each other, giving the same interviews and having the same matches. And Ric Flair comes back and is inserted in a top angle and gets prime TV time that could have went to a kid looking for a break.

 

Im all for up and comers getting there chance to shine in the Main Event, but I think there leading to something here with having Flair involved with the Legacy, Batista/Cena/HHH feud. I see Ric joining Legacy like the role he had with Evolution which would help out Cody and Ted even more.

 

Theres actually a ton of history in this Legacy Feud dating back to the Evolution days and it makes perfect sense to have Flair involved in it. If its done right hopefully we will see a Legacy (Orton, Flair, Dibiase, Rhodes) vs HHH, Batista, HBK fued. Tons of history with all those guys and it could make HHH and HBKs return real exciting to watch. Lots of possible tag matches and the Mic time in this feud would be fun.

 

I totally agree with you about Big Show beating Cena. That was just stupid to have Cena beat Show at JD, they should have at least waited until ER to have Cena beat Show.

 

And yes most of Raw is horrible to watch, I only watched to see Flair last night, and it opened my eyes to whole bunch of possibilities they can do with having him back.

 

Flair vs Steamboat at Summerslam or Mania 26!