NYU

That might be difficult.....considering that Drek and Panther won't be fighting next Thursday. But there will be fallout! Oh, yes. Fallout, indeed. Awesome show tonight. More thoughts later. Just as a note to Patty: I really appreciate you putting Panther/Cappa on last. It gave the finals of the Round Robin tournament some real attention, and it set the stage nicely for next week. I wasn't expecting the Round Robin to have the final slot on the show, so I do appreciate that you did that. Thanks.

Round Robin fallout! Just what is going to happen between Drek Stone and Panther? Both men wound up tying for first place at the conclusion of the tournament - how is this issue going to be solved?! Who is going to get the Heavyweight Title shot in November?! Find out on HeldDown! And.....I'm sure there will be other stuff too.....probably something involving Hoff, I dunno.

Edwards tied his father studying in front of the television into the American Dream, and trying to bring the country back to the ideals it once had. Bush said this painting made him optimistic, and then he seemed to trail away from that during the rest of his closing statement. I certainly didn't think Edwards' closing statement was god-like, but you did an awesome job of putting words in my mouth. I did think it was a strong statement, but obviously, there were people here that didn't feel the same. Is it necessarily true from the Conservative Brigade here that Bush didn't fall into the same trap tonight? If so, why? I don't see how he tied his unnecessary beginning anecdote any better than Edwards did.

So, for all those who criticized John Edwards's closing statement: Why exactly do I want to know about a painting that Bush has? Why is it important to know that there's a picture of a mountain in the White House? Is there any relevance whatsoever that Bush's friend sat there and painted something for President Bush? Because lots of people had a problem with Edwards talking about his father studying in front of his television during his closing statement. Does Bush's closing statement get the same criticism? Because, truth be told, his closing statement didn't really accomplish anything. Many feel Edwards had the same problem.

Cute concept, but not nearly funny enough to justify making it 14 minutes long. The first two minutes were pretty good, but the film just seemed to drag terribly after that.

I'm not going to say it wasn't a partially stupid thing to say. The effectiveness of stem cells has not been proven yet, and the assumption that it would have automatically improved Reeve's condition is probably unfairly jumping the gun. With that being said, I don't really agree with the fact that Edwards was trying to exploit Reeve's death - Reeve has come out in recent months for Kerry/Edwards on this very issue - and if Reeve's family don't find the comment to be offensive, I don't really see why anyone else should have a problem. I also don't think that this one comment shows weaknesses Edwards has a Veep candidate. As we've noted time and time again, Bush has had quite a few flubs and insensitive remarks in his speeches and debates. Conservatives certainly don't think this highlights his weaknesses as the President, and shouldn't be reelected again as a result. Why does Edwards have a different standard to hold onto? Again, was this comment a dumb thing to say? Maybe. Does it deserve its own topic, followed by numerous posts talking about how horrible John's statement was and how it proves just how stupid and sleazy he is as a human being? I really don't think so.

This isn't an excuse. This is common sense. The Conservative outrage is completely unwarranted here. It would just be much easier and more sensical if everyone found something else to be terribly offended about.

There is no "if true" to it, it IS true, and it was said last night I do believe...AFTER Christopher Reeve had died. I heard it on the radio news earlier today, I heard the actual audio of Edwards saying it, and it sickened me to the core. I mean, I know I heard it but I still can't believe he said such a thing. Tad melodramatic, are we? Personally, I don't see why this quote got its own topic. Especially after the stuff that has flown out of Bush's mouth over the past four years. But then again, I guess that's why I'm not Mike. Now, it just seems to me that this quote has been taken out of context. This comment from Edwards deals moreso with the entire concept of stem cell research, rather than exploiting the death of Christopher Reeves. Under Kerry's administration, there will be research in the field of stem cells. This research COULD do a fair amount in helping those who are paralyzed, giving them an improved life that they may not have had otherwise. Yes, they might not have the ability to walk - but any progress in their paralysis would be good progress. Under the Bush administration, there is no hope in the field of stem cells because there just is no research being allowed. This was all John Edwards was saying with his quote. If he did use the exact term "Christopher Reeves would be able to walk," then sure, that's probably incredibly unrealistic. But I think it's easy to understand the main gist of his speech was that Christopher Reeves' life COULD have been improved under the Kerry administration because stem cell research COULD have helped. It's not a guarantee, but it certainly is a possibility. The message here is not all that difficult to understand, kids.

FLAIR! "Randall, were you talking about me?! Were you talking about the NAITCHA-BOY?! I had to tear myself away from a beautiful virgin for this! Boy, have you ever smelled that fishy odor from a young woman's vagina?! And let me just say, the NAITCHA-BOY earned his red wings tonight! WOOOOOOOO! I mean, we're talking about BLOOD soaking through my fingers. QUITE.....A......SIGHT.....TO.....SEE! THE NAITCHA-BOY... *starts strutting at the top of the ramp* "BE POPPIN DELICIOUS CHERRIES AND EATIN FISH TACOS ALL OVER THE PLACE! WOOOOOOO!"

That's it... Ric Flair and Gene Snitsky as a tag team! DO THAT FOR ME WWE! "We're high-flyin', limosuine-ridin', wheelin dealin, pipe wiedlin, penthouse-livin', miscarriage givin' son of a guns!" I just want to see how much more offensive Flair's interviews can get as the weeks go on. ---------------------------------------------------- "KANE! It is NOT Gene Snitsky's fault. Oh no. If you're gonna blame anybody, blame the NAITCHA-BOY! Lita couldn't help but have her SUCCULENT vagina popping out babies after seeing Ric Flair! I get the ladies all hot and excited. All the time. That's why they call me SPACE MOUNTAIN! WOOOOOOO!" *drops ELBOWDROP on imaginary opponent* "We're talking LOTS of blood!" *drops KNEEDROP on the mat for no reason* "DEAD FETUS BODIES" *starts strutting in the center of the ring* AND PLENTY OF GOOEY PLACENTA TO GO AROUND! BLAME THE NAITCHA-BOY, KANE!"

Well, she WAS battling cancer. As far as I know, she had gotten completely rid of it and wasn't really suffering any ill effects because of it. If you're going to have a pre-written obituary for a celebrity, there just seems like there would be WAY more sensical people than Sharon Osbourne.

I know for a fact that some websites do prepare an obituary in advance for celebrities that look to be getting close to dying. With that being said, a pre-written obituary for Sharon Osbourne doesn't seem to make much sense. Still, I don't think she's dead.

Bret/Owen from WrestleMania X. Done BEFORE Rando posted! My prize? I wouldn't mind feedback on the Six-Man match. *Yeah......that's a hint* Anyway, to go on with the feedback: -Great way to start off the show with the Jingus/Black vs. Blanchard/Spiderpoet match. There was some good action in this one - specifically, the double German Suplex spot. Crazy. I also liked how the end of the match really managed to keep up the tension between all of these teams. Once again, the Tag Division just continues to thrive. -Loved the backstage segment with Krista and Tiffany. Looking for clouds indoors? Finding an imaginary cloud in the shape of Wichita? Awesome. I'm actually very interested to see what happens with Krista and Logan. -Really interesting segment with Thrillogy discussing the Hoff/Crystal match. I liked how Calvin was trying to play the father-type role here, attempting to use his experience to calm Hoff before the match starts. But Zack, once again, lets his selfishness get in the way. Could we be seeing Hoff getting kicked out of Thrillogy......? Nah. Well, maybe. Hopefully, Hoff doesn't sit on Calvin's shoulders anytime soon. -Spectacular match between Sly/Yuji. The action here was just awesome, and I loved the rapid pace of the match. It really felt like these two guys were fighting as hard as they could for the HIYAH Jr. Heavyweight Title. I'm really looking forward to seeing where this entire HIYAH-angle goes next. But it looks like we're going to be seeing a new wrestler soon in Yuji Chusaki, and I'm sure that's going to be a good thing. -Funny segment with Alix and the Producer. This Costume idea sounds like it could be pretty fun - although I'm sure I'm going to turn out to be way off when it comes to determining where the idea's atually going. -Intense interview with Zack Malibu and Axel. There just really seems to be an incredible amount of tension and hatred between Zack and Axel, and I think that's what makes their storyline work out so well. You get the feeling that they would cripple the other person if they had the opportunity to, and I think that's proof of just how well this feud has been built up. Zack/Axel looks like it should be awesome next week. -Enjoyed the backstage segment with Holly and Alix. I seriously wonder what Alix is going to do with the Saints at this point. It becomes a matter of whether she will do what's best for their careers and give them up, or keep them the way they are for her own special needs. Deep. Set the stage well for the next few weeks with all these characters. -Crazy segment with Father and the Machine. That was definitely an insane revelation made by Father, and I really wonder how that's going to affect Rick, Judas, and all the others. Just when you thought Father was going to come to his senses last week, he proves himself to be a real bastard all over again. Really good! -Great Main Event with Hoff/Crystal. I was actually really surprised that Crystal dominated Hoff as much as she did, but glad to see Hoff squeeze out the win in the end without any help from Thrillogy. I'm really looking forward to seeing Hoff vs. Crystal for the Heavyweight Title at WWE - and I'm also genuinely interested to see what Zack's reaction to this match is going to be like next week. -As always, any feedback on the Six Man Tag would be VERY, VERY much appreciated. I realize I posted the match late, so some might have skipped over it, but I would still really like to know what everyone thought about the match. End of the Round Robin next week?!?! WHO'Z GONNA GET DAT TITLE SHOT~?~!

No, that's too logical. It's much easier to just throw around wild accusations.

Comments on everything BUT the Six-Man Tag?! This hurts. This hurts so much that I may have to finally pull out the Trump card. Something that I didn't think I'd ever have to use. *SHAKES FIST ANGRILY!!!!* Oh yeah, and to bypass the hypocrisy, my thoughts on the show will be posted later. But back to the fist shaking.

The Round Robin match will be in sometime tonight. Shouldn't be too long of a wait. Might as well just edit it in later though....

What in the hell does this even mean? Really. Explain it to me. I'm incredibly interested. Seriously. I really am. Explain it, please.

Barron, if I were you, I would definitely hold off on the immature insults in this discussion. All the material I could use on you would last me a lifetime. I'm done with this thread. I've made my points, and I believe I've backed up those points well with solid facts. I don't see the point in responding to yet another long-winded Pro-Cheney post with an equally long-winded Pro-Edwards post. This carousel is just going to keep continuing circling repeatedly, with no one getting won over in the end. My opinion is known, I have backed up that opinion, and it would be foolish for me to spend another hour writing a ridiculously long post to defend that opinion yet again. Let's just let the facts speak for themselves. Opinions on the debates last night have been mixed. Some feel Cheney came out as the winner. Some feel Edwards came out as the winner. Many feel that the debate turned out to be a tie. It's only when you walk into the TSM Current Events folder that the results become considerably skewed to the right. This folder does not represent the standard judgment of the Vice Presidential Debate. Opinions HAVE been mixed - look at all the news sources if you don't believe. While I've enjoyed participating in this thread, there are still some problems that need to be addressed. Calling people "stupid" or "morons" for having a perfectly valid opinion is just ridiculous, and it hurts the quality of the discussion as a result. If posters would just hold off on the needless insults and the unfunny jokes - GreatOne, I'm staring right at you - debate in this folder would be much more intelligent. Some of the discussion in this thread worked out well, but it could have worked out better. Either way, I'm done for this particular thread. I've made my point, and it would just be silly for me to type out one more incredibly long response about this debate. Why should it come to that? The next Bush/Kerry debate is coming up fast, and I'm sure discussion in that thread will be just as heated. Should be fun once again.

Well, it seems to me that Cheney had no problems going off-topic at certain points throughout the debate. In fact, I distinctly remember Cheney being asked a question about the situation in Israel, saying that he "wanted to go back to the previous question" that referred to Halliburton, then launched into a nonsensical personal attack on Edwards' voting records. He already went completely off-topic in this response from the original question. Why not use that time to actually address something in the debate - LIKE the Halliburton charges brought up only a moment ago - instead of going for the cheap low blow, which had become a trend throughout the night. And, if we're even going to assume that Cheney had ONLY those 30 seconds - which is the completely wrong mindframe anyway - he could have done more in that short amount of time. Obviously, at this point, he should have it down pat just why all those charges against Halliburton are false, and he pretty much should be able to recite these reasons quite quickly. Instead, he said that Kerry and Edwards are putting up a "smokescreen" - a comment that was repeated incorrectly several times throughout the night - and gave the public the wrong web address. He failed with this subject. You're still assuming a lot. You can not take for granted that people tuned into the post debate analysis long enough to get the correct website - especially since it's not a guarantee that this analytic shows even released the correct web address anyway. Still kicked Edwards ass? Hardly. It seems to me he had the rest of the night to do that if he wished. Perhaps he just didn't know how. This is a myth that I'm afraid people around here are beginning to believe. Edwards brought quite a few facts into this debate, and it'd be nice if you bothered to listen to them. After Cheney tried to attack Edwards on his voting record, John was able to come back with his own criticisms. Like how Cheney voted against making Martin Luther King Jr.'s birthday a national holiday. Or when Cheney called against the release of Nelson Mandela. Or when Cheney voted against Head Start. How about when Dick was against the Meals for Wheels senior program? Edwards mentioned certain facts about the Halliburton deal that, in this debate, were not contested at all. How the company got a $7.5 million no-bid contract in Iraq, and instead of part of their money being withheld, which is the way it's normally done, because they're under investigation, they've continued to get their money. Certainly something that could remain with the American public. When Cheney brought up the benefits of the No Child Left Behind Act, Edwards made sure to mention that they didn't fund the mandates they put in schools all over the country. As a result, over 800 teachers had to be laid off in Cleveland alone. Stop with the rhetoric that Edwards didn't have facts. I could bring up more if you'd like. He had facts about Cheney's voting record. He had facts about the Bush/Cheney policies. You're spouting the "Edwards had no facts" line so much that I'm afraid you might be believing it. If the Kerry/Edwards stance on the issue is the one that pleases the most people, why is that a problem? Bush is dividing the country on the issue of gay marriage by taking such a hard, one-sided viewpoint on it. Not only does he want gays to NOT have the right to marry, he wants to make it a constitutional amendment that it not be allowed. He doesn't want gay couples to have any of the same rights that opposite-sex couples have at this point. And why is this? Because of his religious beliefs. Don't even get me started on that. You can't fault Kerry and Edwards for trying to give the right answer. To try to give the answer that would offend the least amount of Americans. And, like I've said before, it's ridiculous for you to just assume that it isn't what they believe in the first place. So then you shouldn't note that Cheney has broken ranks with the President on gay marriage. Not only does it not accomplish anything, but it makes Bush look even worse that he plans to move on with the idea to step on gay rights, despite the fact that his own Vice President has a gay daughter. Miscommunication all around. Again, there was an actual reason behind bringing the man's personal life into the topic. Can you not see that there is a problem with our President if he blatantly disregards the fact that his own Vice President has a homosexual daughter? Can you not see that there is a problem if our Vice President is not taking a bigger stand to rally for his daughter to actually have some rights as a gay American? Edwards brought Cheney's daughter into the debate for just a moment, to show the unique hypocrisy that is facing the Bush administration. He succeeded. Look in other threads then. Mike and GreatOne - who I'm convinced are the same person - couldn't wait for Cheney to thrash him on the subject of health care. Didn't quite happen that way. Then there's a double standard here. If it's okay for Cheney to go off the topic to answer something else, then it should certainly be okay for Edwards to do it. Also, I don't see where you got this notion that Edwards kept going back to talk about health care. I believe he only did it one more time after the question had passed. He really didn't go back and constantly harp on it, so I don't know where this is coming from. It was off topic from the question being asked. If the moderator is asking you a question about the Israeli situation, there is no reason that Cheney should have gone into an attack on Edwards records. Especially since some of those attacks were quite misleading. Cheney said Kerry once vowed to allow a veto by the United Nations over U.S. troops. This statement was made 35 YEARS AGO, only ten months after Kerry had returned from Vietnam angry and hurt by his experiences there. Of course, Cheney tried to paint the picture that it was something that happened recently. Nice. Cheney said Kerry's tax-cut rollback would hit 900,000 small businesses. This is also misleading. According to IRS data, a tiny fraction of small business "S-corporations" earn enough profits to be in the top two tax brackets. Most are in the bottom two brackets. Cheney charged that Kerry voted 98 times to raise taxes. But factcheck.org - the same site that Cheney TRIED to advertise during the debate - said that nearly half of those motions weren't necessarily for tax increases, but just to continue the procedural motion. Let's not forget that Cheney also said Kerry and Edwards were opposed to the No Child Left Behind Act when, in fact, both men voted for the law and supported modifications to fund billions of dollars in order to support the program. Cheney not only went off topic when he tried to attack Edwards. He was misleading and wrong when he did it! Quite witty. Quite witty but inaccurate. There were several points in the debate where Cheney found himself unable to combat claims by Edwards. These are all topics that were covered before. And like I've just said, some of the "debunking" that Cheney did was just flat-out wrong. And now we're back to the fact that you didn't understand Edwards closing statements. Let me give you a lesson about speech-writing. To get the audience's attention early and in a powerful way, it's often good to begin with a personal anecdote. Edwards did this by noting how his father used to sit in front of the television and try to learn mathematics, with the hope that he could improve his own status. The American Dream is to have the opportunity to improve yourself in this country, and Edwards father was trying to do that. Edwards then shifted the statement smoothly to show that the Bush administration has not kept this American Dream idea thriving like it once was. I hope I don't have to sum up the message of the speech for you a third time. It was mathematics, Bob. If you're going to be highly critical of the speech, try to get it right. The point was that Edwards dad was looking to study math on the television in order to try to move up in the country. Long ago, his dad had the hope that, in the United States, there was still the chance for upward mobility. For many, that hope has disappeared in the United States under the Bush administration. Many are without jobs - those jobs, of course, being outsourced into other countries. Many are suffering when it comes to the financial situation, and thus it's nearly impossible for them to try to get out of the rut they currently sit in. And, of course, many feel the stranglehold that the rich have in this country is an insurmountable mountain to climb. This wasn't the viewpoint years ago. Years ago, there was the viewpoint that anybody could succeed as long as they had a steady job and the desire to move upwards. That viewpoint has changed. Whether you agree with the idea is up to you. But that is the message Edwards was trying to convey, and I think it was a valid one. With the closing statement, it was time to leave an impression on the American audience. Edwards already usd a wide array of facts throughout the entire debate - now it was time to really drive home the point. I believe he did it with flying colors. You really are grossly misinformed. These candidates are human. You can not fault a man like John Edwards to be somewhat nervous in the biggest night of his life thus far. Simple debate? Many were saying that the entire foundation of both campaigns could rely on this debate. If the Bush/Cheney ticket fell again in this debate, the Kerry/Edwards one could have gotten a measure of momentum that would have been difficult to come back from. If Kerry/Edwards completely failed here, that could have been the end of the election for them. There was a lot of pressure placed on this debate and Edwards, who had never been in this type of situation before, felt a little nervous about it. Was he sweating bullets? Hell no. Bob, you are quite the amazing man if you were never anxious about publically speaking to a larg amount of people before. Perhaps John just doesn't have the poise you do. Just because he was nervous at certain pointsi in this debate certainly doesn't mean he is unfit to be the Vice President of the country. Why, look at George W. Bush after all, then. I don't think there was ever a President that ever stumbled over his own words more, looked more dumbfounded during speeches and debates, and was just a worse public speaker. But I guess we don't include him, huh? A matter of opinion then. I felt it worked. And there are many others that agree. It's a shame your bias steps in the way of seeing the truth. Hopefully, you'll eventually get that cleared up. Edwards brought it up in a polite tone, just to point out the complete background behind the situation. I didn't think it was cringeworthy at all. Certainly not me.

That may be true, but she fucking lost the contest, so she shouldn't be on the goddamn show. So you believe WWE never have should have signed Chris Nowinski or Josh Matthews, considering they did both lose on "Tough Enough"? Just because Carmella lost her contest, or Chris lost his contest, or Josh lost his contest, doesn't mean WWE should pass on them completely. If they see some talent in these people, then - by all means - they should sign them.

Bob, you're in over your head here. He needed to do much more in his time allowed than say "Everything that man said next to me is wrong" without elaboration. He had a chance to delve further into the topic with the next question, but instead chose to go after John's voting records. Ah, but he did give out the wrong one. And now he needs to rely on the post-news coverage to help him out of a hole? First off, there probably isn't a wide percentage of people who, after watching the debate, were willing to go to that website. Second, if they wanted to - and were unable to access it - you now expect them to reasonably sit in front of the television and wait for Tom Brokaw to give them the right web address? Cheney screwed up majorly here if he was looking to fight against the Halliburton charges. No, no. Edwards did good in other aspects as well. His opinion couldn't be an opinion that a good percentage of Americans also share? That, while granting a gay couple complete marriage rights may be unnecessary, they should still be given SOME rights, without a consitutional amendment to completely stand in the way? Just because Edwards gave the politically-correct answer doesn't mean he doesn't believe in it, and it's quite foolish of you to even suggest that. Kerry and Edwards picked what many feel is the right stance on the issue! What the hell are you even arguing here? Hooray. Now if that had an actual effect on its status in the country, then things might look a little better. But the way it stands now, that means absolutely nothing. The hypocrisy of the Bush administration. How Dick Cheney has a gay daughter, yet will stand by and allow Bush to block certain rights that gays have in this country. Edwards didn't mention her name in a sleazy way - he mentioned her name in order to prove a point. It accomplished something. It left Cheney without any platform to stand on when it came to hurting civil rights for homosexuals in this country. It left him without anything to say to combat John's charges. It did a pretty damn good job of that. Ask Mike and GreatOne. They were just salivating over this topic. Untrue. He only went back on it a few times to fight against the image that Cheney was trying to paint of him - someone that just wouldn't know WHAT to do with Health Care. Edwards wanted to prove him wrong, which is why he wished to go back and correct his statement. In actuality, this was another weakness of the Bush administration, and Cheney wanted to go back to highlight it. Besides, if he did this a "pathetic" amount of times, then what would you consider Cheney's constant off-topic attacks on Edwards' voting records to be about? Those not only didn't answer ANY questions that the moderator was laying out, but he went back on those far more than Edwards mentioned health care. Oh, but Edwards DID have facts - and Edwards DID have points. Go back and rewind your VCR if you don't believe me. Ugh, you clearly didn't understand the point of his closing statements. The beginning anecdote of the statement was to address the ideals on which this country was built upon. How his father could sit in front of the television to learn mathematics and better improve his status in the country. How America actually gave him the opportunity to help fix his OWN education, and how certain people like John's father did their best to seize this chance. He then related this to the America of today, and how the two timeframes of the United States don't correlate nearly enough. How, under the administration of Bush and Cheney, this chance to improve status has disappeared. How - with taxes, outsourcing of jobs, the falling economy - these ideals are starting to falter. He then closed it out by saying that, if John Kerry and John Edwards were elected, they would try to change this worrying trend, and bring the country back to where they were before. This speech had a great flow. This speech had emotion. And, most importantly - this speech had a POINT! Cheney spoke in a cold, somber tone during his final presentation. He didn't offer anything new to the public, he didn't try to reach out to them on a face-to-face basis - he suffered under the same weaknesses he almost always falls under. His closing statements appeared flat because they just weren't powerful enough to convince people that Bush and Cheney would be the absolute BEST choice for the next four years. Either you didn't understand the point of John Edwards' speech, or you just tried hard not to. I don't believe I am. Could it have anything to do with the idea that Cheney is used to this high-profile attention by now, while this was the first MAJOR, MAJOR debate that John Edwards has ever been involved in? Could it have anything to do with Edwards being a human being like all of us, and getting nervous just because he was doing something that he was admittedly inexperienced at, while Cheney clearly knew what he was doing? I think it was. It certainly didn't like Edwards was flustered for any points. It certainly looked like John knew what to say to combat Cheney's points when it came to the subject of domestic issues. He may have butterflies in his stomach. That definitely doesn't mean he didn't know what he was talking about. He certainly did. As I've said, Cheney DID go off-topic to attack Edwards on his voting records. Edwards, defending himself, went back and unleashed a nice string of criticisms on Dick's voting record as well. And if you want to talk about on the defensive - rewatch Cheney throughout the entire domestic issues debate. Not only did he have to backtrack several times and cover valid points that Edwards kept bringing up, but he often found himself unable to find the words to debate against certain topics. Cheney did quite poorly in many subjects during the domestic debate. For some reason, I'm not shocked you don't see that. Thank you for apologizing about my boy not winning. Luckily, he tied. Perhaps we'll have to agree to disagree.

There was one not even a week ago. Blah, blah, Bush had better content, blah, blah, Kerry had better presentation, blah. I swear - I honestly do NOT see where this thrashing came from. Honestly, no matter WHAT the debate looked like tonight - certain people like Mike, Barron, GreatOne - would not stray from the opinion that Cheney destroyed Edwards. Even if nothing of the sort happened, like tonight. It's quite scary, actually. No, it's fact. There is NOTHING the Dems can take away from this as a positive. Nothing whatsoever. It's sad that you choose to not see reality, but oh well. -=Mike Cheney failed at addressing the issue of Halliburton. Instead, he directed people to a website. First, how many of our undecided voters are actually going to go to a website to read up on this? Second, Cheney gave out an invalid address! www.factcheck.com? For anyone that actually DID want to read up on the issue, Cheney screwed that up as well. Halliburton is one of the major drawbacks of the Bush/Cheney team, and Cheney completely stumbled over himself trying to fix the issue. Looks like a victory. Cheney did not know how to address the issue of gay marriage, while Edwards at least had an opinion about it. While John went into a discussion about wondering why a consitutional amendment was needed, showing his convictions by saying that while he doesn't agree with gay marriage - he still thinks these couples should still have rights.....the issue went to Cheney, and all he could do was thank Edwards for saying kind words about his daughter. The man looked incredibly weak on one of the most controversial domestic issues in this country today. The Health care issue was one that Cheney was supposed to have pounced on top of Edwards about. Yet, Edwards kept battling back to his own points, to the point where he left an impression on the American audience by actually going back on the issue and elaborating further. Not only did he manage to properly combat Cheney trying to trap him on health care, but he looked all the better for it. John's closing statement was actually powerful as well. While Cheney had a cold, unemotional conclusion to the debate tonight, Edwards actually began with his own anecdote about his family and was able to evolve that into a speech about how Kerry/Edwards would be the right choice on the ballot, and why Bush/Cheney would be detrimental to the country. Edwards' closing statement actually helped him at the end of the debate, while Cheney's had nearly no effect whatsoever. Here are a few positives to come out for the Democrats tonight in the debates. Good God, how was I able to come up with positives for the Dems tonight? This was an absolute thrashing! Bullshit, it was. This was only a "thrashing" because you prayed, hope against hope, that it would be. And when it wasn't, you tried to maintain that opinion anyway. As did several others in this thread as well.

There was one not even a week ago. Blah, blah, Bush had better content, blah, blah, Kerry had better presentation, blah. I swear - I honestly do NOT see where this thrashing came from. Honestly, no matter WHAT the debate looked like tonight - certain people like Mike, Barron, GreatOne - would not stray from the opinion that Cheney destroyed Edwards. Even if nothing of the sort happened, like tonight. It's quite scary, actually.

Wow. Just.....wow. I don't even know where to begin.

You mean, when Edwards only talked about health care when the issue came up? An issue that everyone was SURE Cheney was going to rip him apart on? An issue that Edwards looked much better on than anyone had expected? I honestly find these claims of "Edwards getting destroyed" to be absolutely hilarious. He didn't do too well on the foreign policies. He smoked Cheney on the domestic policies - to the point where, on some issues, Cheney just didn't know what to say.