The Old School questions thread

[Lil' Bitch 0]

So was Andre The Giant really undefeated in the WWF prior to WM III or did he suffer a pinfall loss before then?

 

Another question was the WWF planning on doing Steamboat / Savage 2 at WM4?? It seemed strange that Greg Valentine went over him....although was this Vince's way of having the hump with Steamboat as he wanted to leave or something?

 

I doubt it seeing how WWF wasn't keen on doing face / face, heel / heel matches back then.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

So was Andre The Giant really undefeated in the WWF prior to WM III or did he suffer a pinfall loss before then?

 

To the best of my knowledge Andre had not been pinned in the WWF at that point.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

Going through Cawthon's site, I see Razor Ramon beat Jeff Jarrett in a ladder match at a house show to win the IC title. Razor and Jarrett went around the house show with the ladder match, and usually Jarrett would win after Razor recovered the belt unseen from the referee. My question is whether the title change could have occured accidentally.

[Shooting Star 0]

Anyone why Vince ended up giving his spot in the Winner Take All match from Survivor Series to the Big Show out of nowhere?

[DrVenkman PhD 0]

In kayfabe it was because he realized Big Show was a better choice in such an important match then himself.

[humanoid92 0]

Going through Cawthon's site, I see Razor Ramon beat Jeff Jarrett in a ladder match at a house show to win the IC title. Razor and Jarrett went around the house show with the ladder match, and usually Jarrett would win after Razor recovered the belt unseen from the referee. My question is whether the title change could have occured accidentally.

 

It's possible, but I always thought it was intentional because they mentioned it on TV. Of course, they mentioned the Men on a Mission Tag Title win on TV too and that was accidental. But the difference is, I'm pretty sure I remember them actually showing video footage of the Razor/Jarrett incident, and not the MOM incident. So if I'm right and there were cameras there at the house show, and they went out of their way to document it with visual footage, you'd have to think it was intentional.

 

As for possible reasons for that, a few theories:

 

1) When business was down, they did to a lot of house show Title changes. '93 had Shawn over Marty in Albany, the Steiners and Money Inc. trading the belts, and '94 had the Quebecers going over the Kid & Marty, the Men on a Mission Tag Title win (accidental or not), the Shawn & Diesel Tag Title win in Indianapolis, and the Diesel MSG WWF Title win. So house show title changes had been taking place every few months over the past two years, probably in an effort to make the house shows seem like they were "can't miss" events, to draw more fans.

 

2) Razor never did (and to my knowledge was never scheduled to) go over Jarrett to regain the Title on TV. And he never really was to get that one-on-one blowoff to the feud. With Jarrett gaining the upper-hand time after time in the feud, maybe they didn't want the fans to think he was being lowered on the card. And this was their way of giving him somewhat of a victory in the feud, even if he ended up losing the Title right back.

 

3) I think they went out of their way to make sure Jarrett didn't end up like Honky Tonk Man with a really long continuous reign, because even though he was Champ, they always made him look very beatable. He jobbed to Bret on TV right before he went over at the Rumble to first win the Title. And before that he jobbed to Nash around the horn at house shows. I know he jobbed to Undertaker on TV while was IC Champ (in a non-Title match). I think he had a lot of trouble with Savio Vega as well. Bob Holly actually did beat him for the Title on TV, but the match was held up because both guys pinned each other. Jarrett won the rematch and was then considered a two-time IC Champion. The house show switch with Razor may have been another cheap way to add a reign to his total and make him a three-time IC Champ (it also made Razor a three time IC Champ). For whatever reason, they may have wanted them both to be 3-time champions. Whether it was building to a Razor vs. Jarrett match, a Razor vs. Shawn match, or a Shawn vs. Jarrett match (which did happen and in fact, Shawn won the match to become a 3-time IC Champ himself), the whole 3-time champion label seemed important to them. And remember, two years earlier with Mr. Perfect vs. Shawn Michaels, they were obsessed with the whole "three-peat" possibility at Summerslam (granted, that was a popular phrase at the time because of what the Bulls had just done). That match ended up disappointing, and we never got the Perfect three-peat. I admit, this last one is out there a little bit, but why else would Jarrett have become a three-time IC Champ within five months of first winning it, under bizarre circumstances with the Bob Holly hold-up and the house show switch? Seems like that was the easy way to bill him as a three-time champion with a minimum of disturbing the general flow of things.

[CanadianGuitarist 0]

I'm re-watching Wrestlemania 14, and JR said "19,000 fans made this, at a total of 1,XXX,000 dollars box office, made this the highest grossing event in the history of Boston".....How much truth is there to that, if any?

 

The numbers JR gave works out to about 51 dollars a ticket, which sounds reasonably accurate....But even at the (for argument's sake) 37,500 that Fenway holds, that'd be 31ish a ticket...was this just the WWE re-writing things? I didn't really factor in inflation, and the 2004 World Series almost certainly grossed more than that; but, yeah....

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

I'm re-watching Wrestlemania 14, and JR said "19,000 fans made this, at a total of 1,XXX,000 dollars box office, made this the highest grossing event in the history of Boston".....How much truth is there to that, if any?

 

The numbers JR gave works out to about 51 dollars a ticket, which sounds reasonably accurate....But even at the (for argument's sake) 37,500 that Fenway holds, that'd be 31ish a ticket...was this just the WWE re-writing things? I didn't really factor in inflation, and the 2004 World Series almost certainly grossed more than that; but, yeah....

The 2004 World Series occurred after Wrestlemania XIV, so that wouldn't make a difference. The only real competition would be the 1995 playoffs, and maybe a football game here and there.

[cawthon777 0]

Scott Keith is still trying to claim that Butch Reed was booked to win the IC title in his newest WMIII rant, years after that myth was totally debunked. What's the point of even trying to keep up the facade anymore?

 

It was debunked? IIRC, both Steamboat and Honky have said it was true.

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

Scott Keith is still trying to claim that Butch Reed was booked to win the IC title in his newest WMIII rant, years after that myth was totally debunked. What's the point of even trying to keep up the facade anymore?

 

It was debunked? IIRC, both Steamboat and Honky have said it was true.

 

Butch Reed is shown in the locker room celebrating with Honky after he wins the title so the story of him being a no-show doesn't seem to hold a lot of water. Reed, I believe, said in his shoot interview that it's an urban myth and he was never being considered for the IC title. Most people have jumped to the conclusion that Honky and Hulk made the story up to make it seem like they were geniuses for suggesting that Honky get the belt.

 

I guess we'll never know definitively, but the evidence seems to be against the Reed story.

[Red Baron 0]

I've heard that Jake Roberts and Hulk Hogan were going to have a feud, but scrapped it because Jake was getting over as a face instead of a heel.

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

I've heard that Jake Roberts and Hulk Hogan were going to have a feud, but scrapped it because Jake was getting over as a face instead of a heel.

 

Sort of. They filmed a segment where Jake gave Hogan a DDT and it got a big pop. The clip never aired and they decided it wasn't best for business to put them together.

[King Kamala 0]

I've heard that Jake Roberts and Hulk Hogan were going to have a feud, but scrapped it because Jake was getting over as a face instead of a heel.

 

Sort of. They filmed a segment where Jake gave Hogan a DDT and it got a big pop. The clip never aired and they decided it wasn't best for business to put them together.

 

 

They also main evented a house show or two together.

[cawthon777 0]

I've heard that Jake Roberts and Hulk Hogan were going to have a feud, but scrapped it because Jake was getting over as a face instead of a heel.

 

Sort of. They filmed a segment where Jake gave Hogan a DDT and it got a big pop. The clip never aired and they decided it wasn't best for business to put them together.

 

I wouldn't be surprised to hear that segment aired in certain areas to hype a Hogan vs. Jake house show; there were about half a dozen. It wouldn't take much work to edit out the applause and they did sometimes air segments like that - not seen elsewhere in the country - to promote local cards.

[Dobbs 3K 0]

I wonder how much of a pop Roberts really got when he DDTed Hogan, or if that is just smartmark revisionist history.

[cawthon777 0]

I wonder how much of a pop Roberts really got when he DDTed Hogan, or if that is just smartmark revisionist history.

 

Or simply Jake revisionist history.

[King Cucaracha 0]

Okay, what's the story on the 'accidental' MoM title win? I've never heard about that before.

[StrapFinlay 0]

Okay, what's the story on the 'accidental' MoM title win? I've never heard about that before.

 

Mabel accidentally fell on one of the Quebecers, who was pinned - and given his weight, there was not much that could be done about it.

 

The titles were then reversed back two days later at another house show.

[cawthon777 0]

Unless that's been confirmed by credible sources, it sounds like an urban legend. It's a lot more logical they did the title change simply to make the UK tour special and make sure those fans returned for the next tour.

 

MOM also successfully defended the belts the next day against the Quebecars.

[Dobbs 3K 0]

Yeah...I don't know if I buy that Mabel accidentally fell on top of someone and couldn't get up...the ref probably wouldn't have counted the pin in that situation, or at least made like the guy kicked out at 2.

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

Unless that's been confirmed by credible sources, it sounds like an urban legend. It's a lot more logical they did the title change simply to make the UK tour special and make sure those fans returned for the next tour.

 

MOM also successfully defended the belts the next day against the Quebecars.

 

I think it's an urban legend. Hate to bring the guy up again, but it seems like Scott Keith is the source for all those title change rumors that spouted up on the internet. It's been proven that he made most of them up out of thin air.

 

In fact, here's a list of debunked title change myths that I can think of:

 

Butch Reed booked to win IC title

Mankind booked to win at Mind Games

Austin booked to win at Final Four

[bob_barron 0]

He didn't make them up, they were all rumours from the RSPW board back in the day.

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

He didn't make them up, they were all rumours from the RSPW board back in the day.

 

That may be so, but he tried to attribute them to Meltzer and Meltz called him out on it during Wrestling Observer Live.

[Dobbs 3K 0]

I don't know why you guys rag on Keith so much...he's not really that influential anymore. All the rumors and "urban legend" stuff used to be way worse in the mid '90s, when a lot of people were first getting onto the net, and a lot of fans were less educated than today.

[StrapFinlay 0]

Couple of questions related to the same thing...

 

If Hogan was planning on staying with the WWF post-KOTR 1993, would they have had him bodyslam Yokozuna during either the WM IX debacle (if Hogan was capable, given his condition) or at the KOTR itself...

 

And...

 

Were either of the bodyslams Lex Luger delivered to Yoko, either on the USS Intrepid or at SummerSlam 93, genuinely bodyslams. Footage I've looked back at (and from memory of seeing the events) can hardly be classed in the same league as Hogan's WMIII slam on Andre.

 

Oh, and am I right in saying Hogan also slammed Andre after their WMIV DDQ?

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

Couple of questions related to the same thing...

 

If Hogan was planning on staying with the WWF post-KOTR 1993, would they have had him bodyslam Yokozuna during either the WM IX debacle (if Hogan was capable, given his condition) or at the KOTR itself...

That's a really hard question to answer because there were never any expectations for Hogan to stick around. He was just there to pop the crowd and transition the belt to Bret. The whole Lex angle was shot precisely to give them a huge babyface with Hogan out of the picture. There are too many moving parts in your scenario to answere the question properly. Basically, the answer is no. Sort of.

[humanoid92 0]

Couple of questions related to the same thing...

 

If Hogan was planning on staying with the WWF post-KOTR 1993, would they have had him bodyslam Yokozuna during either the WM IX debacle (if Hogan was capable, given his condition) or at the KOTR itself...

That's a really hard question to answer because there were never any expectations for Hogan to stick around. He was just there to pop the crowd and transition the belt to Bret. The whole Lex angle was shot precisely to give them a huge babyface with Hogan out of the picture. There are too many moving parts in your scenario to answere the question properly. Basically, the answer is no. Sort of.

 

Yeah, I'm with cheech here. Although, I don't think there was ever any chance they would have had him do it at KOTR. Once KOTR rolled around and they knew they were jobbing Hogan out, they may have already had the bodyslam idea in the back of their heads and probably wanted to "save" it. Plus Hogan not slamming him put Yoko over even stronger.

 

But at WM 9 I doubt they had the foresight to even think about it. So it's pretty fortunate that he never did. I guess at WM 9 they just didn't think it was necessary, since the story was that Yoko was fatigued from his match, the salt in the eyes had to backfire, and they wanted the whole thing to go down as quickly as possible.

[StrapFinlay 0]

Yeah, I'd agree with you both thinking about it.

 

Though, if we were to believe Hogan's book (sure!!!) then the finish was only decided upon a few hours before WMIX, and if it was really left that late and he suggested it, I wouldn't have been surprised if it was agreed to.

 

In hindsight, they may have well ended Yoko before they started with him. His year with the belt was truly awful, for so many reasons. Though, for a period of time from 93 onwards, who really could run with the ball?

 

Still don't think Luger's "bodyslams" on him really were genuine slams, though!

[King Kamala 0]

Eh I didn't think Yokozuna's title run was that awful. Maybe it's cause that was when I first started watching.

 

 

About potential post KOTR plans for Hogan- I remember seeing a picture taken from the crowd of Hogan and Giant Gonzalez squaring off face to face in the ring at a Superstars taping around the time of King of The Ring after a Hogan and Beefcake Vs Money Inc lumberjack. I'm pretty sure the picture was from the WrestleCrap message board (how fitting) I wonder if a Hogan-Giant Gonzalez feud was ever in the works? I shudder to think what the matches would be like.

[humanoid92 0]

Well, as Heenan would say: "It was a hip toss!"

 

I don't think Yoko's time with the belt was as awful as people make it out to be. Outside of the Flair/Savage stuff and the brief Bret run, the WWF Title picture had never really been about workrate. It was about monsters. And Yoko was as good of a monster as you'll find. If they were going to push him at all, it made sense that he was as dominant as he was. The workrate in the midcard was so great that Yoko sucking wind in main events didn't matter much. In fact, the midcard singles ranks were arguably better than they'd ever been from a workrate perspective. Bret, Shawn, Perfect, Razor, Jannetty, the Kid, Steiners, Money Inc., etc. were all tearing it up elsewhere on the card.

 

And even as a huge Bret fan I never minded his "demotion" because it gave us: A) his brilliance at KOTR 93, B) the Lawler feud and the awesome Summerslam booking, and most importantly C) the perfect beginnings to the Hart Family feud with Owen. He didn't need the World Title to do any of that stuff, and he finally did go through all that and got it back at WM X, it was an awesome moment and made the Owen feud that much better. I mean, would any of that have had the same effect if Bret had just been champion non-stop from the fall of '92 to the fall of '94? Not at all. And outside of going back to Hogan or biting the bullet and going with Luger (please no), Yoko was the logical champ at the time.