The Old School questions thread

[King Kamala 0]

 

 

Haha! So I'm not going crazy. There it is Hogan and Gonzalez facing off (Off the set of Thunder in Paradise and in the ring).

 

 

Here's what the guy from the wrestlecrap board posted;

 

Hey guys, long time lurker, first time poster, so I thought I'd throw something in.

 

I was looking through my hundreds of pics from late 80s/ early 90s house shows and came across this gem. It was from one of those monstrous six-hour WWF Superstars and Collosseum Video tapings weeks before WM9. This was taken right after the main event of the Mega Maniacs with Crush vs. Money Inc. with Giant Gonzalez.

 

All kinds of crazy crap happened at that show, like an experimental Duggan heel turn where he cracked his tag team partner Kamala over the head with the 2x4 after losing the match.

 

I can't think of anyone on the roster at this time who wasn't at the show, so let me know if there's anything else you want to see.

 

 

 

WWF @ Huntington, WV - Civic Center - June 15, 1993 (4,400)

WWF Superstars taping:

Rex King & Steve Doll defeated Tito Santana & Virgil

Hulk Hogan & Brutus Beefcake defeated Ted Dibiase & IRS in a lumberjack match (Would explain the guys outside of the ring.

Doink the Clown defeated Owen Hart via count-out

WWF World Champion Yokozuna defeated Jim Duggan

The Undertaker defeated Giant Gonzalez via disqualification

The Headshrinkers defeated Jim Duggan & Kamala

Lex Luger fought Randy Savage to a double disqualification

7/3/93 - featured a match between the 1-2-3 Kid and Reno Riggins which took place at a Raw taping, possibly 6/21/93 in Poughkeepsie; included Bonnie Blackstone conducting an interview with Bret Hart regarding Jerry Lawler and the upcoming Stars & Stripes Challenge to be held at the USS Intrepid; featured a Men on a Mission rap vignette promoting their debut the following week:

Marty Jannetty pinned Tom Stone with the flying fistdrop

Lex Luger pinned Rich Myers with the running forearm

WWF Tag Team Champions Rick & Scott Steiner defeated Barry Horowitz & Brian Costello following the bulldog double team on Costello

The 1-2-3 Kid pinned Reno Riggins

Bam Bam Bigelow (w/ Luna Vachon) pinned Rudi Gonzalez with the diving headbutt

Adam Bomb (w/ Johnny Polo) pinned Jay Sledge with the powerbomb

7/10/93 - included footage of the Stars & Stripes Challenge, held 7/4/93, with Lex Luger being successful in slamming WWF World Champion Yokozuna; included the announcement that Bret Hart would face Jerry Lawler at Summer Slam in the first match signed for the event:

The Smoking Gunns defeated Jay Sledge & Buck Warner with the backdrop / piledriver combo

Crush defeated Doink the Clown (Borne) via count-out when Doink sustained a backdrop on the floor, allowing Crush to slide back inside the ring before the 10-count; prior to the bout, Doink appeared on the big screen, with the screen splitting until 16 Doinks were shown; after the match, a second Doink (Keirn) attacked Crush from behind with wooden sticks

WWF IC Champion Shawn Michaels (w/ Diesel) pinned Kevin Kruger with a superkick and piledriver

Men on a Mission (w/ Oscar) defeated Mitch Bishop & Chad Miller following a front suplex / legdrop off the middle turnbuckle combo (MOM's debut on Superstars)

7/17/93:

Tatanka defeated Brian Costello

Adam Bomb defeated Rich Myers

WWF Tag Team Champions Rick & Scott Steiner defeated Ted Dibiase & IRS via reverse decision after IRS' steel briefcase allowed the challengers to score the pin; the pinfall and title change was quickly overturned

Mr. Hughes defeated Sonny Rogers

 

 

I'm not entirely sold on this but the picture and results are sorta convincing.

[StrapFinlay 0]

 

That picture raises a few questions!

 

But going back to Yoko quickly, my main problem with him was that I never found him a believable monster. He was portrayed as a sumo champion, and sumo is considered a very honourable sport! Though as was mentioned above, the WWF roster was pretty light back then - Bret was defending the belt across the country against the likes of Kamala, after all...

 

But here's another thought (and not really answerable, I suppose)...what if at WMIX, Bret had beaten Yoko and Hulk had come down and demanded "his" belt back and then squashed Bret in 30 seconds, turning Hogan heel - then he gives a speech as he did when he joined the nWo?

 

Or were Hogan and the WWE so through in 1993 that it would never have been worthwhile?

[King Kamala 0]

The nWo was a case of right place, right time, right circumstances. Who knows if it would have worked in '93 WWF?

 

 

 

And I hate that finish to WMIX- anyway you slice it- you're really making two of your potential new superstars look bad so a past his prime Hogan can look good.

[StrapFinlay 0]

The nWo was a case of right place, right time, right circumstances. Who knows if it would have worked in '93 WWF?

 

And I hate that finish to WMIX- anyway you slice it- you're really making two of your potential new superstars look bad so a past his prime Hogan can look good.

 

 

A terrible ending with who it was...but an ending that could, and should, be used again with someone more deserving than him, IMO. If it would work in the current era, which I doubt.

 

How close to "curtain-up" can the outcome be decided, then? Literally until the music hits (apart from during match alterations via the referee)?

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

The nWo was a case of right place, right time, right circumstances. Who knows if it would have worked in '93 WWF?

 

And I hate that finish to WMIX- anyway you slice it- you're really making two of your potential new superstars look bad so a past his prime Hogan can look good.

 

 

A terrible ending with who it was...but an ending that could, and should, be used again with someone more deserving than him, IMO. If it would work in the current era, which I doubt.

 

How close to "curtain-up" can the outcome be decided, then? Literally until the music hits (apart from during match alterations via the referee)?

There've been some outcomes changed in the ring.

[Bruiser_Brody_ 0]

Crush defeated Doink the Clown (Borne) via count-out when Doink sustained a backdrop on the floor, allowing Crush to slide back inside the ring before the 10-count; prior to the bout, Doink appeared on the big screen, with the screen splitting until 16 Doinks were shown; after the match, a second Doink (Keirn) attacked Crush from behind with wooden sticks

 

IIRC This was the blowoff to their fued as during this bout it was announced that Crush would face Yoko on RAW and that match led to Crush going heel

[humanoid92 0]

And I hate that finish to WMIX- anyway you slice it- you're really making two of your potential new superstars look bad so a past his prime Hogan can look good.

 

I agree with everything else you've said in this thread, but I still think people make too much out of this finish because of who was involved. The Hogan win was made to look like a fluke. Yoko got his comeuppance with the salt in the eyes. He was gassed after his match and Hogan was fresh. Sure, you could say it made Bret and Yoko look bad... except they both recovered right away. Yoko got his belt right back, squashed Hogan in their only "real" match, and Bret won KOTR and the fans still accepted him as the number 1 guy despite every attempt to shove Luger or Hogan into that slot instead.

 

Maybe it had to do with politics, but I think it had just as much to do with popping the crowd. Once they had booked Bret vs. Yoko, what are the other possible outcomes? A) Bret beats Yoko. Not gonna happen because Yoko is their new guy and they're not gonna job him to a 230 pounder in a legit match. B) A DQ finish. This would be a million times worse. C) Yoko beats Bret and that's it. Again, that's worse than what happened. Crowd goes home pissed, which didn't happen in those days. You can certainly argue that the match never should have been booked in the first place (and I have), but once it was, other than Bret going over clean, what outcome would all of you liked to have seen instead?

 

I still think this had as much to do with Vince wanting to pop the crowd and send them home happy with a huge surprise ending (to top the previous year with the awesome Warrior return) as it did with "Hogan being greedy."

 

And let's not forget, the crowd legitimately went nuts. It's not like they crapped on it. The pop was huge. And it freed Bret up to win the KOTR, which ended up putting him and the whole damn concept of the PPV over huge. The bottom line is, no matter what anyone says, it actually worked. It wasn't a disaster by any means.

 

For people that complain about the way they murdered Big Show right off the bat (which they did), look no further than what they did with Yoko in his first 12-18 months as the perfect way to get a big guy over without destroying anyone else's career in the process.

[humanoid92 0]

This one isn't so much a question, but a clarification. I'm sure if we sift through all the pages of this thread, this subject has been brought up somewhere...

 

Much has been made of Jesse Ventura going off on Hulk Hogan on commentary during the main event at Wrestlemania V. A lot of people thought it seemed out of place that Jesse was overly angry and critical of Hulk constantly throughout the match. It went beyond the usual "heel announcer doesn't agree with top face" to the point where a lot of people were convinced Jesse was shooting on him. I never bought into the shooting part, but it did seem weird that he was so pissed at him for no apparent reason.

 

Well, I just saw a clip that clears it all up. On the version of the show that I watched as a kid, they edited out a lot of stuff around intermission. But apparently there's a segment that includes Mean Gene shilling Hogan's upcoming movie, No Holds Barred. Then Sean Mooney (off his game that night) interviews Donald Trump (which I definitely do remember seeing) and then throws it back to Gorilla and Jesse in the booth. Ventura flips out and cuts a heel promo on Hogan right then and there, because Jesse was a wannabe movie star and he felt Hogan was invading his turf in Hollywood by making this movie. Good stuff... Ventura gets so pissed off that Gorilla looks like he's about to crack up legit by the end of it.

 

Anyway, I had never seen this part of the show before, and it definitely puts Jesse's comments during the main event into context. He was simply pissed at Hogan from the earlier No Holds Barred announcement.

 

Maybe this isn't news to some of you, because I think the clip I saw comes from the WM DVD boxset. But it was news to me, so I figure there are others that were in the dark on this one too.

 

For those interested, the events in question occur during the last couple minutes of this clip: http://www.dailymotion.com/Galaxiawrestlin..._wrestlemaniav8

 

(On a sidenote, that user has WMs 1-5 posted in their entirety in 10-15 minute increments.)

[StrapFinlay 0]

And let's not forget, the crowd legitimately went nuts. It's not like they crapped on it. The pop was huge. And it freed Bret up to win the KOTR, which ended up putting him and the whole damn concept of the PPV over huge. The bottom line is, no matter what anyone says, it actually worked. It wasn't a disaster by any means.

 

Can't be denied the crowd loved it. But when it comes to getting that sort of crowd going, nobody does it like Hogan.

 

Good job Hogan was allowed to compete with his busted eye (however he did it) otherwise things could have been very different...

 

Edit to ask a "quick" question...

 

The crowd at Summerslam 92 at Wembley Stadium was given as 80,355, but having been there for a near-sellout football match with just under 80,000, I'd put the real crowd at somewhere nearer 90,000.

 

But, apart from that, I've been told over the years by more than one person, that the tickets were sold as for a football match - ie the most expensive seats were the ones further back, not the ringside seats.

 

Does anyone know, perhaps if anyone went, if that was true?

[Lil' Bitch 0]

I hated the finish of Wrestlemania IX myself because of course I wanted to see Bret retain, but looking back on it, I think it was best Hogan won the belt out of the blue rather than having Yokozuna leave the champion at the end of the show.

[DrVenkman PhD 0]

Seriously, humanoid92 is awesome. It's rare to see an internet wrestling fan try to put a positive spin on things.

 

When I was 12, I thought the Luger slam on Yokozuna was cool, but when I was 14 that became a distant memory when Ahmed Johnson did it bigger, better, and blacker. Too bad Ahmed ended up being far worse than Lex... but for a few months, I thought Ahmed was the man.

 

Giant Gonzalez: Am I incorrect in remembering that on some TV show at some point in the Summer of 93, Savage pinned Gonzalez clean, followed by Gonzalez turning face and then never appearing on TV again?

 

In doing some research, I see at both a Superstars and Challenge taping, Gonzalez jobbed to Savage followed by several USWA jobs to Lawler and Jarrett.

 

"Jerry Lawler pinned Bret Hart in a steel cage match at 14:39 after an interfering Giant Gonzalez accidentally clotheslined Hart; earlier in the bout, Owen Hart came out and attempted to climb the cage but Jeff Jarrett prevented him from doing so, with the two then brawling at ringside; after the bout, Bret and Gonzalez double teamed Lawler in the ring, with Bret applying the Sharpshooter; moments later, Owen attacked Jarrett in the ring while Gonzalez knocked down the referee and hit a chokeslam on Lawler". This is a wacky scenario to play out in your head. Damn I wish WWE had the rights to USWA footage.

[UseTheSledgehammerUh 0]

For the people saying JJ and Roadie were basically gone before the IYH where Jarrett dropped the title, WWF Magazine put out a SummerSlam 94 card with JJ Vs. The Roadie advertised, AND a story on new IC Champ Shawn Michaels being challenged by Sid...

 

So it appears there were plans, or that wouldn't have been announced.

[King Kamala 0]

Giant Gonzalez: Am I incorrect in remembering that on some TV show at some point in the Summer of 93, Savage pinned Gonzalez clean, followed by Gonzalez turning face and then never appearing on TV again?

 

 

 

I thought it was after The SummerSlam match with The Undertaker and then Whippleman berated Gonzalez who then decked him.

 

 

Giant Gonzalez's last appearence IIRC was getting ganged up on and tossed out by everybody in The IC title battle royal on RAW in September/October of 93

[cawthon777 0]

The crowd at Summerslam 92 at Wembley Stadium was given as 80,355, but having been there for a near-sellout football match with just under 80,000, I'd put the real crowd at somewhere nearer 90,000.

 

The official numbers for Summer Slam, from Meltzer, are 78,927 and 75,000 paid, though it was announced as 80,355.

[humanoid92 0]

Seriously, humanoid92 is awesome. It's rare to see an internet wrestling fan try to put a positive spin on things.

 

Eh, I'm not that awesome. Believe me, there are plenty of things I'm negative about. A lot of people that read my WWF 1997 bashing awhile back can confirm that. I don't post often (or at least I didn't until recently) so when I do post, I like to speak out about things I think are remembered unfairly (be it positive or negative) by the masses.

 

It's not as much about me being positive as it is about my theory that the popular opinion on a lot of stuff from the pre-internet era has been heavily influenced by a few select people and taken as widely accepted fact instead of the opinion of a select few.

 

I assume that a lot of the "smark community" got online for the first time in the late 90's, and all of a sudden there was an opportunity to discuss and read about wrestling's past. An outlet that most kids didn't have while they were fans from the mid 80's up until the dawn of the Attitude era. Which is great. But in that formative period, I think a lot of people started to take the popular opinion and just accept it as fact. The opinions of Keith, Meltzer, and all the other prominent writers seemed to stick as fact. I have no problem with those guys at all. I just think a small number of writers heavily influenced the way the internet masses view history, and those masses usually don't even realize it.

 

As far as everything from the internet era goes, it's a different story. Yeah, there's the HHH criticism that pretty much everyone is on board with, but because everything from the late 90's on has taken place when there's an outlet to discuss it as it's happening, the issues are treated differently. Yes, popular opinion still rules, but we're at least all an active part of the process as that opinion is being formed. With the pre-97 stuff, those opinions were kind of just handed to us after the fact. And for whatever reason, no one seems to challenge any of them. There are a few issues that have achieved a certain status where it's blasphemous to disagree with the popular opinion, and if you disagree with it you're automatically a moron and you can't possibly be making any sense even if you make a strong argument.

 

The WM 9 issue from above is an example of one of those issues. Honestly, I'm not saying the WM 9 finish was the greatest thing ever. Far, far from it. But is anything I said in the post I made earlier untrue? I've yet to see someone actually point out what's wrong with my position. But no, that's one of the examples of something that no one is allowed to challenge. The perception that the whole thing was a huge pile of shit is bulletproof. No one will even consider that what they've believed (or been told to believe) all this time may actually be tremendously exaggerated. I feel this way about other things too, whether the issue in question is criticized or praised by the masses.

 

So basically, I think people were so overwhelmed by the online community and so eager to get their "smark card" that they were willing to embrace the generally accepted version of history without thinking too much about it. And now that version of history has become so ingrained in everyone's thinking that to express an opinion that goes the other way on anything pre-1998 is often considered unacceptable. Just my theory.

 

"Jerry Lawler pinned Bret Hart in a steel cage match at 14:39 after an interfering Giant Gonzalez accidentally clotheslined Hart; earlier in the bout, Owen Hart came out and attempted to climb the cage but Jeff Jarrett prevented him from doing so, with the two then brawling at ringside; after the bout, Bret and Gonzalez double teamed Lawler in the ring, with Bret applying the Sharpshooter; moments later, Owen attacked Jarrett in the ring while Gonzalez knocked down the referee and hit a chokeslam on Lawler". This is a wacky scenario to play out in your head. Damn I wish WWE had the rights to USWA footage.

 

I'm pretty sure in the Youtube thread somewhere there's a link to a USWA match from that time period, pitting Bret and Owen (as heels) vs. Jarrett and Lawler. And then Gonzalez gets involved in the end. It's so bizarre to watch a '93 version of heel Bret in Memphis, not to mention Gonzalez's involvement. If you can find it, it's definitely worth a look.

[humanoid92 0]

The crowd at Summerslam 92 at Wembley Stadium was given as 80,355, but having been there for a near-sellout football match with just under 80,000, I'd put the real crowd at somewhere nearer 90,000.

 

The official numbers for Summer Slam, from Meltzer, are 78,927 and 75,000 paid, though it was announced as 80,355.

 

Yeah, I can't see the WWF downplaying their numbers under any circumstances. I mean, it's pro wrestling. Whether it's a wrestler's weight or an attendance figure, they've been known to exaggerate, but I've never seen them go the opposite way.

[Aero 0]

I was just reading a WM 13 roundtable review at 411, and it's mentioned that before the Owen & Bulldog vs. Vader & Mankind match was set, they originally wanted Mankind vs. Mero, but Foley refused. Now, obviously Mero ended up injuring his knee prior to the show, but is there any truth to Foley refusing to work with Mero, and why?

[Betty Houle 0]

I was just reading a WM 13 roundtable review at 411, and it's mentioned that before the Owen & Bulldog vs. Vader & Mankind match was set, they originally wanted Mankind vs. Mero, but Foley refused. Now, obviously Mero ended up injuring his knee prior to the show, but is there any truth to Foley refusing to work with Mero, and why?

 

Foley does talk about it in his first book so it certainly appears to be true. I believe it. I don't, however, believe that Mero was so bad that even Foley's wife could see how bad a program with him would be, as Foley also claims in his book.

[King Kamala 0]

Yeah, Foley hated that idea and he also resented the fact that Mero made more money than him until IIRC like late '97 or something when it was clear that Foley was the better and more successful of the two signings.

 

The angle leading up to the match was supposed to be some kind of "Beauty and The Beast" storyline sorta similar The Randy Savage-George Steele feud over Elizabeth.

[strummer 0]

Foley and the Meros used to be good friends but Mick flipped out when he discovered that Mero got a much bigger contract from the WWF. He also said that Rena Mero used to be a real sweet girl (their kids were friends IIRC) but became arrogant and conceited when she received her monster push in 1998.

[Black Lushus 0]

if I'm not mistaken, didn't they kinda start an angle at Summerslam 96 when mero was facing Goldust and Mankind was coming otu scaring Sable, calling her mommy and shit?

[StrapFinlay 0]

if I'm not mistaken, didn't they kinda start an angle at Summerslam 96 when mero was facing Goldust and Mankind was coming otu scaring Sable, calling her mommy and shit?

 

IIRC, Paul Bearer was Mankind's "mommy-figure" but yes, Sable was taunted by Mankind during that time you've mentioned. I've got a feeling there was a bizarre storyline intended (according to Foley's book) but it was scrapped. Thankfully...

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

It seems odd for Mick to bitch about Marc Mero's contract to that extent. I always wondered if he wanted to bitch about Sable's contract but didn't want to come out and create trouble (considering Sable was still a top star at its writing).

[King Kamala 0]

I'd still like to know if there were any plans for Hogan after King of The Ring '93. I mean it seems fairly obvious now that he was done after jobbing to Yoko but if you go back and watch King of The Ring, JR and Savage really put Hogan over after the loss and IIRC, at various points after the match mention that we haven't seen the last of Hogan.

 

 

I think they wanted Hogan to stay but not as a full time main eventer and Hogan balked and did Thunder In Paradise (Classic) and then went to WCW. Anybody know more about whether or not KOTR 93 was supposed to be Hogan's last appearence in the WWF until '02?

 

 

 

 

Second, I remember someone posted a link to a bunch old Herb Kunze's tidbits and I remember a lot of them from early 94 talked about Hogan forming his own league to be broadcast on HBO. Was this just typical Hogan BSing or was he actually considering starting up a new fed at the time?

[StrapFinlay 0]

I'd still like to know if there were any plans for Hogan after King of The Ring '93. I mean it seems fairly obvious now that he was done after jobbing to Yoko but if you go back and watch King of The Ring, JR and Savage really put Hogan over after the loss and IIRC, at various points after the match mention that we haven't seen the last of Hogan.

 

 

I think they wanted Hogan to stay but not as a full time main eventer and Hogan balked and did Thunder In Paradise (Classic) and then went to WCW. Anybody know more about whether or not KOTR 93 was supposed to be Hogan's last appearence in the WWF until '02?

 

I seem to remember the commentators pretty much running down Hogan and burying him as he was stretchered away.

 

But, according to "Hogan's" book (okay, obviously crap and he didn't actually write it) he said something along the lines of "I wasn't fired, and I didn't quit, we just both agreed I'd work on other things away from performing in the ring".

 

Which brings me on to another question. Of all the books released by the WWE in recent years, I am right ins aying only Foley's ones have been written by the actual wrestler whose name is on the cover? Though that's the same or most autobiographies, to be fair, and makes me surprised that so many people slated Hogan for "his" book when he just clearly signed for it and took the cash.

[ChrisMWaters 0]

Question I had via this year's WWE Hall of Fame...

 

Did The Original Sheik and The Iron Sheik ever have a match against each other?

[King Kamala 0]

I'd still like to know if there were any plans for Hogan after King of The Ring '93. I mean it seems fairly obvious now that he was done after jobbing to Yoko but if you go back and watch King of The Ring, JR and Savage really put Hogan over after the loss and IIRC, at various points after the match mention that we haven't seen the last of Hogan.

 

 

I think they wanted Hogan to stay but not as a full time main eventer and Hogan balked and did Thunder In Paradise (Classic) and then went to WCW. Anybody know more about whether or not KOTR 93 was supposed to be Hogan's last appearence in the WWF until '02?

 

I seem to remember the commentators pretty much running down Hogan and burying him as he was stretchered away.

 

.

 

 

I saw the show about a year ago and I remember otherwise. I have the show on VHS, I might watch it again if I feel like it. But I'm 95% sure they put over Hogan after the match. And you also have to remember that Hogan didn't lose cleanly. Sure he was squashed for 90% for the match but he didn't job cleanly.

 

I had this WWF Magazine from 94 though that has an article on Yokozuna and IIRC, who would be the guy to stand up and defeat him. And it completely buried Hogan, almost to a comical extent. It was something like "Yokozuna destroyed the four time WWF World time champion- Hogan was last seen wrestling in some old timers federation"

[StrapFinlay 0]

I saw the show about a year ago and I remember otherwise. I have the show on VHS, I might watch it again if I feel like it. But I'm 95% sure they put over Hogan after the match. And you also have to remember that Hogan didn't lose cleanly. Sure he was squashed for 90% for the match but he didn't job cleanly.

 

I had this WWF Magazine from 94 though that has an article on Yokozuna and IIRC, who would be the guy to stand up and defeat him. And it completely buried Hogan, almost to a comical extent. It was something like "Yokozuna destroyed the four time WWF World time champion- Hogan was last seen wrestling in some old timers federation"

 

I just seem to remember someone screaming "Hulkamania is DEAD" and not in a way that they used to after, for example, Earthquake sat on him.

 

But that magazine article was classic - so over the top it did come across as a bit too much!

[Dobbs 3K 0]

Yeah, I think I remember Bobby Heenan yelling that after Yokozuna beat Hogan. They also aired clips of the match on the RAW immediately following that show.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

Which brings me on to another question. Of all the books released by the WWE in recent years, I am right ins aying only Foley's ones have been written by the actual wrestler whose name is on the cover? Though that's the same or most autobiographies, to be fair, and makes me surprised that so many people slated Hogan for "his" book when he just clearly signed for it and took the cash.

 

This is true for nearly the entire autobiographical industry, bot just wrestling books. In some instances it is more obvious than others. Freddie Blassie's book was great but it was obvious in many parts that the author was filling in background information that Blassie would've never bothered with. Many times the author collects information through interviews with the subject at sets to work.

 

Did The Original Sheik and The Iron Sheik ever have a match against each other?

 

It's possible, but almost an impossibility given their heel personas.