The OaO 2003-2004 NBA Season Thread!

[MrRant 0]

Los Angeles Lakers guard Gary Payton, frustrated by what he said was both limited playing time and the team's triangle offense under Phil Jackson, said on Saturday that he may leave the team after the season. Payton signed a two-year deal with the Lakers but has an option to get out of the deal after the season.

 

"If that's the way [Jackson's] going to be, that's the way he's going to be, and I'll probably have to move on," Payton said.

 

With no rancor, Payton expressed frustration with his role in the team's offense. He isn't the focal point of the Lakers' attack, which features Shaquille O'Neal and Kobe Bryant. Payton goes minutes at a time without shooting. And while Jackson juggles minutes among Bryant, Payton, Derek Fisher and Kareem Rush, Payton said Saturday that he shouldn't be the one who has to sacrifice his game.

 

"They're going to have to satisfy Shaq and Kobe," Payton said. "They get 40 [minutes]. So we don't know. Whatever way [Jackson's] gonna do it, he'll do it. But I'm just going to state that I'm not pleased with my minutes I'm getting, because I don't think I'm productive being that way. And a lot of people see that. They see that I'm not comfortable with this. And it's affecting my game. My game is me playing minutes, and as the minutes go on, I get more productive and more productive. And I can't do that."

 

Payton's agent, Aaron Goodwin, told the Los Angeles Times on Friday that Payton had some regrets about signing with Los Angeles. The 35-year-old guard didn't use that word on Saturday, but agreed with the basic sentiment, and hinted that a decision on whether he returns next season may hinge on whether Jackson is re-signed after this season. Jackson and the team decided last month to end negotiations on a new contract until after the season.

 

"It's [Jackson's] offense," Payton said. "I'm used to coming off picks, screen and rolls, back to the basket, doing things like that. I've never played in this offense, the triangle offense. For my whole career, I played with a coach that let me go off pick and rolls, shoot when I can. This is not the offense for me to do that. This is not the typical offense for me. And that's basically it. I've already conceded to it, that this is not my offense."

 

Payton said that earlier in the season, the Lakers ran more screen-and-roll offense. But since Karl Malone suffered a knee injury in December, Payton said, his scoring opportunities have diminished, and the Lakers haven't run as much.

 

"Karl could pass the ball, and he could get you layups," Payton said. "Me and him was in pick and roll, and we was running, and we were getting the ball out. Now, we're getting the ball, and we go straight to the offense. We're not running. We're not running as much, and that was where I was getting my easy baskets. Now, we don't run."

 

Asked what he wanted to do in the offense, Payton said, "I need to be coming off picks, when people go at us with pick and rolls, screening, stuff like that, and point guards do that, we should come back and do the same thing with them. But we basically run the triangle, [Jackson] has won championships with it, he's going to stick with it, and he's the coach."

 

Jackson spoke with reporters prior to Saturday's game against Washington and suggested that Payton was frustrated, in part, by Thursday night's loss to the Sacramento Kings, when counterpart Mike Bibby scored 31 points, including two three-pointers down the stretch.

 

"I think that's probably one of the things (play defense) that he wanted to do more than anything else ... is that he wanted to have an influence on Bibby, so he couldn't get going," Jackson said. "He wanted to wear at him when he did get going, early in the ballgame, and he didn't have that opportunity. And (Bibby) hit a couple of shots down the stretch that were big. And then acted out on court like an a------."

 

Jackson said that he didn't think Payton would be a problem, but that it would be difficult to get minutes for Payton, Derek Fisher, Kareem Rush and Kobe Bryant.

 

"All these kids have egos," Jackson said. "But then I tell them that I have one, too."

 

Payton said he hadn't talked to Jackson in a month about his frustrations. Jackson said he had to play a lot of people to get the Lakers ready for the stretch drive of the season.

 

"It's tough to balance it out," Jackson said. "Fish needs at least six or seven minutes out there on the floor if he's going to contribute the way he's going to contribute, and Gary needs a little bit of a blow to come back and have a little influence on the ballgame."

 

After playing 34 minutes in the Lakers' 122-110 victory over the Wizards, Payton is averaging 33.7 minutes per game, a little more than three minutes per game fewer than he had averaged in 14 previous NBA seasons. He is third on the Lakers in scoring at 14.4 points per game, almost four points fewer than his career average of 18.3.

 

David Aldridge, who covers the NBA for ESPN, is a regular contributor to ESPN.com. Also, click here to send a question for possible use on ESPNEWS.

[Guest OctoberBlood]

Haha, who didn't see that coming?

[Guest FrigidSoul]

The draft will be rigged for Orlando so T-Mac can get some frontcourt help. McGrady is a draw, which means as long as he cries like a bitch about losing, so does David Stern.

That's another thing that draws fans away from the NBA. They do a lottery based system but they don't do it in front of the fans, they only give the results. Thus there's no way of saying they couldn't be rigging it.

[King Kamala 0]

Celtics win two in a row since god knows when, sure it was against the Raptors but still they look like they've gotten a solid starting five for the first time in a long long time. Sure the bench is depleted but it's been that way for a few years.

[Guest FrigidSoul]

something tells me we lose to the Magic as Drew Gooden and Juwan Howard light us up again.

[Guest pinnacleofallthingsmanly]

If Payton wanted to score alot of his points, he should have kept his ass in Milwaukee.

[Vern Gagne 0]

Try showing up Timberwolves. They should of won by double digits easily.

[lomasmoney 0]

In quite possibly the most fucked up ruling ever, The MHSAA ( Michigan High School Athletic Association) has ruled that Chris Webber was ineligible throughout his high school career and has urged his alma mater, Detroit Country Day High School, to forfeit the three state championships they won with Webber.

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=1748049

 

 

Now this shit is just getting ridiculous. Webber is now being punished for things he did at 15 years old. Why would the state even investigate something that happened so long ago, and why would they care. The whole Ed Martin booster thing pisses me off, because it's Chris Webber getting the blame for everything that happened, when it is known in this area that Ed Martin has been helping kids out for years. Hell, he used to frequent the River Rouge High School games back in the 1970's when my dad played and Detroit Southwestern was the basketball school in the area for about 20 years. So I am sure there are dozens of other kids that he paid off that haven't lost their high school eligibility.

[razazteca 0]

The draft will be rigged for Orlando so T-Mac can get some frontcourt help.  McGrady is a draw, which means as long as he cries like a bitch about losing, so does David Stern.

That's another thing that draws fans away from the NBA. They do a lottery based system but they don't do it in front of the fans, they only give the results. Thus there's no way of saying they couldn't be rigging it.

How else could the Cavs get the home town hero Lebron James? Of course it is rigged.

[lomasmoney 0]

The draft will be rigged for Orlando so T-Mac can get some frontcourt help.  McGrady is a draw, which means as long as he cries like a bitch about losing, so does David Stern.

That's another thing that draws fans away from the NBA. They do a lottery based system but they don't do it in front of the fans, they only give the results. Thus there's no way of saying they couldn't be rigging it.

How else could the Cavs get the home town hero Lebron James? Of course it is rigged.

Let's not forget the Knicks conviently getting the top pick and drafting Patrick Ewing, and Jordan just happened to have won the lottery and had the #1 pick when he was GM/ VP of Player Personnel of the Wizards

[Steviekick 0]

In quite possibly the most fucked up ruling ever, The MHSAA ( Michigan High School Athletic Association) has ruled that Chris Webber was ineligible throughout his high school career and has urged his alma mater, Detroit Country Day High School, to forfeit the three state championships they won with Webber.

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=1748049

 

 

Now this shit is just getting ridiculous. Webber is now being punished for things he did at 15 years old. Why would the state even investigate something that happened so long ago, and why would they care. The whole Ed Martin booster thing pisses me off, because it's Chris Webber getting the blame for everything that happened, when it is known in this area that Ed Martin has been helping kids out for years. Hell, he used to frequent the River Rouge High School games back in the 1970's when my dad played and Detroit Southwestern was the basketball school in the area for about 20 years. So I am sure there are dozens of other kids that he paid off that haven't lost their high school eligibility.

That is ridiculous.

[ant_7000 0]

The draft will be rigged for Orlando so T-Mac can get some frontcourt help.  McGrady is a draw, which means as long as he cries like a bitch about losing, so does David Stern.

That's another thing that draws fans away from the NBA. They do a lottery based system but they don't do it in front of the fans, they only give the results. Thus there's no way of saying they couldn't be rigging it.

How else could the Cavs get the home town hero Lebron James? Of course it is rigged.

Let's not forget the Knicks conviently getting the top pick and drafting Patrick Ewing, and Jordan just happened to have won the lottery and had the #1 pick when he was GM/ VP of Player Personnel of the Wizards

Yep, and they got Kwame Brown, Brown is a medicore player. So it wasn't like the Wizards got the steal of the #1 pick.

[Guest Redhawk]

That's Jordan's fault for picking the wrong guy. The League did all it could to make the Wizards better, but they can't make the pick for him.

[Guest Mindless_Aggression]

Kwame Brown is arguably the worst pick ever at number 1. I mean yeah, he's still got time to improve, lots of it, but it was just so blatantly obvious right off the bat that he needed college ball and he needed it now, not the pros.

[lomasmoney 0]

Brown didn't exactly go to the right team either. He wasn't like Garnett or Lebron who went to teams where they were the man right away, or like Jermaine O'neal, T-Mac or Kobe who went to veteran playoff teams where they could come along slowly. He went to the Wizards, where not only did they suck ass, but he had the pressure of living up to the fact that Michael Jordan thought he was the best player in the draft AND trying to contribute right away. He is maybe the worst #1 pick ever, but not the worst lottery pick. I mean Darko was drafted 2nd and is having a much worse rookie season than did Kwame Brown

[Ripper 0]

And noone will out do Pervis Ellison as the worst number one of all time...either him or Joe Smith.

 

Kwame is having his rookie season this year, after two years of getting pulled if he slightly fucked up in the game (rookies are SUPPOSED to be inconsistant). In a few years, he will be a good player.

[ant_7000 0]

^No he won't, he's career 12pt scorer to me.

[Vern Gagne 0]

Joe Barely Cares was picked first ahead of Kevin McHale in 1980.

[lomasmoney 0]

Joe Barely Cares was picked first ahead of Kevin McHale in 1980.

hahah Joe Barry Caroll, someone thought that was a great pick over the guy with some of the best if not the best low post moves i have ever seen. Joe Smith really hasn't been the worst number 1 pick ever, he has been a solid 10 year player who has put up nice numbers, I mean not what you would consider numbers worthy of the number one pick, but he is no total bust

[Vern Gagne 0]

Funny thing is numbers wise in college JB Cares may of put up bettter numbers than McHale. That of course doesn't take into account McHale wasn't asked to score alot of points.

[Ripper 0]

Well can we please just bow before the suckatude of Pervis Ellison? Please?

[alfdogg 0]

Ellison, Olowokandi, Smith are probably the worst three.

 

JBC at least made a couple All-Star teams. He DID go to Purdue though, which means he should at least make that list.

Edited March 2, 2004 by alfdogg

[Guest Redhawk]

These are the No. 2 picks each year during the Lottery era...

 

Wayman Tisdale, Len Bias, Armon Gilliam, Rick Smits, Danny Ferry, Gary Payton, Kenny Anderson, Alonzo Mourning, Shawn Bradley, Jason Kidd, Antonio McDyess, Marcus Camby, Keith Van Horn, Mike Bibby, Steve Francis, Stromile Swift, Tyson Chandler, Jay Williams, Darko Milicic.

 

The lesson? If you have the No. 2 pick, take a point guard. Do NOT take a center, because an Alonzo Mourning only comes around once every 15 years, and that's only if an anomaly like Shaq is taken with the first pick.

[Gert T 0]

I think I would rather have the NBA abolish the lottery and just give it to the worst team. I know the teams that are the worst would only get 4-6th at the worst and many teams have passed over good players no matter what their pick. But I just think it would give these teams a better chance. Who would have ended up with Yao in 2002?

[Vern Gagne 0]

Hawks beat the Lakers.

 

So they have wins against the Lakers, Spurs, and T-Wolves.

[Ripper 0]

Wayman Tisdale- Great player, underated because he spent so many years in Sacramento

Len Bias- we'll never know what he could've done.

Armon Gilliam- taken by the Suns...one of the great support players in the league...could score(well) rebound and defend.

Rick Smits- Yall know Rick Smits was da MAN before the foot injuries.

Danny Ferry- Between him at two and Pervis at 1, this has to be the worse one/two pick in lottery history.

Gary Payton - Came behind Derrick Coleman I think...the right pick for the team, Hall of Famer. Good pick.

Kenny Anderson - the shoulda beens on this guy will alway be with him. A solid point his whole carrer though...just not as good as he should have been.

Alonzo Mourning - Da MAN for Miami until the unfortunate kidney thing...good pick.

Shawn Bradley - Tee-hee...

Jason Kidd - Is milwalkee still kicking themselves over that Glenn Robinson pick?

Antonio McDyess - before the knee went, great player with tremendous upside.

Marcus Camby - if he weren't so injury prone, he would be a great workhorse down low..

Keith Van Horn - One of the more underrated players in the league- 17+ and 10 everynight, and they say the guy is underachieveing.

Mike Bibby- Good pick...nothing else to add.

Steve Francis - See above.

Stromile Swift - Underated since he plays for the Grizz...solid shot blocker and rebounder...although number 2 might have been a little high.

Tyson Chandler - the SECOND he gets to a team with a REAL coach, he will have a break out year. The talent is there, as seen in spurts, but he has never had a decent coach to teach him.

Jay Williams - Its raining...this would be the best time to go and try out my new bike...He was destined to be a backup point guard anyway.

Darko Milicic - who knows how he will turn out.

 

So basically, outside of Shawn Bradley(who in no way should've come out that high) Stromile Swift and Jay Williams I say almost all of the number 2 picks were solid...you'll alway find someone a little deeper that plays better, but all of this guys could be justified coming at number 2.

[ant_7000 0]

Wayman Tisdale- Great player, underated because he spent so many years in Sacramento

Len Bias- we'll never know what he could've done.

Armon Gilliam- taken by the Suns...one of the great support players in the league...could score(well) rebound and defend.

Rick Smits- Yall know Rick Smits was da MAN before the foot injuries.

Danny Ferry- Between him at two and Pervis at 1, this has to be the worse one/two pick in lottery history.

Gary Payton - Came behind Derrick Coleman I think...the right pick for the team, Hall of Famer. Good pick.

Kenny Anderson - the shoulda beens on this guy will alway be with him. A solid point his whole carrer though...just not as good as he should have been.

Alonzo Mourning - Da MAN for Miami until the unfortunate kidney thing...good pick.

Shawn Bradley - Tee-hee...

Jason Kidd - Is milwalkee still kicking themselves over that Glenn Robinson pick?

Antonio McDyess - before the knee went, great player with tremendous upside.

Marcus Camby - if he weren't so injury prone, he would be a great workhorse down low..

Keith Van Horn - One of the more underrated players in the league- 17+ and 10 everynight, and they say the guy is underachieveing.

Mike Bibby- Good pick...nothing else to add.

Steve Francis - See above.

Stromile Swift - Underated since he plays for the Grizz...solid shot blocker and rebounder...although number 2 might have been a little high.

Tyson Chandler - the SECOND he gets to a team with a REAL coach, he will have a break out year. The talent is there, as seen in spurts, but he has never had a decent coach to teach him.

Jay Williams - Its raining...this would be the best time to go and try out my new bike...He was destined to be a backup point guard anyway.

Darko Milicic - who knows how he will turn out.

 

So basically, outside of Shawn Bradley(who in no way should've come out that high) Stromile Swift and Jay Williams I say almost all of the number 2 picks were solid...you'll alway find someone a little deeper that plays better, but all of this guys could be justified coming at number 2.

Wayman Tisdale- was a good player with the kings back when they sucked.

Len Bias- who knows

Armon Gilliam- Hammer was a solid player, he's was a double-double machine

Rik Smits- He had some game, good shooting big man but the foot injuries killed him.

Danny Ferry- I remembered so much hype about him coming out, he didn't ban out at all.

Gary Payton- Hall of Fame PG

Kenny Anderson- Should've been a better player, he should've worked on his Jump shot.

Alonzo Mourning- A good player, HOF player, Wasn't all that good offensively, but effective.

Shawn Bradley- Whomp Whomp, he should be happy that he has a job in the NBA.

Jason Kidd- He always makes up for what he lacks (jumper) in. Can make any team better.

Antonio McDyess- He was a good player untill the knee problems, he won't be the same player, and will be going down the Tom Guggs route.

Marcus Camby- Should be WAY better then he is as far as offense, but injuries have limit his game a bit.

Keith Van Horn- Read Camby, should be a WAY better player then he is, KVH is just too soft.

Mike Bibby- Solid player, good clutch playoff player.

Steve Francis- He should play the 2G than PG, Mobley will be gone by next year.

Stromile Swift- Came out too soon, not second pick worthy. Good defender, could be a Kenyon Martin type player that can finish in the open court.

Tyson Chandler- As a bulls fan, I watch/follow the Bulls on a consistent basis. Watching him play, his offense basically is all hustle right now and average 13pts before he got hurt, I think he has that Ben Wallace type defense ability that could change a game. If Coach Skiles wasn't focusing on Curry so much, I think Skiles should teach Chandler some offensive skills.

Jay Williams- I have thank him for giving the Bulls Kirk Hinrich, Hinrich has a better rookie season at the PG than Jay did. I hope he does comeback but he won't be they same, he will make a nice backup to Hinrich.

Darko Millicic- As long as Larry Brown is coach, Darko won't get any playing time. I see Darko playing for another team.

[Guest Redhawk]

I don't agree in full. I mean, if the No. 1 pick is supposed to be a franchise-altering type of player, shouldn't the No. 2 pick be damn near as good?

 

*Rik Smits was good, no arguments there. And he played back when the centers in the League were still good (Ewing, Robinson, Hakeem, Shaq, Zo, Daugherty, Mutombo, Divac).

 

*Armon Gilliam, Danny Ferry, Shawn Bradley, Tyson Chandler (who, remember, was picked BEFORE Eddy Curry yet isn't as good as Curry -- who's been playing for the same coaches Tyson has), Marcus Camby and Stromile Swift (although he is my favorite one-dimensional player in the NBA) were/are no more than role players.

 

*Van Horn is alright, but franchise-altering? Hardly. Why do you think he gets traded all the time?

 

*And, once again, the Pistons have no excuse for passing on Carmelo to take Darko. Forget that "We already have a SF" shite. Michael Curry/Tayshaun Prince can't hold 'Melo's jock.

[alfdogg 0]

Wayman Tisdale- Damn. Damn. DAMN. This could have been Karl Malone.

Len Bias- Who knows

Armon Gilliam- Good pick. The Suns, if I recall, were about all offense back in the 80s, and Gilliam was a good defender and rebounder.

Rik Smits- Probably seemed like a gamble at the time, but paid off dearly in the mid-late 90's. In that Magic series in 95, he was hitting EVERYTHING within 16 or so feet. But I still wish we hadn't traded Dampier...his foot injuries were not going to be recovered from at that point.

Danny Ferry- Don't know what this was about...probably just the Duke overhype.

Gary Payton - Obviously, good pick.

Kenny Anderson - Not Gary Payton-good pick, but good pick.

Alonzo Mourning - Reason Charlotte was a pain in the ass in the mid 90's. Good pick.

Shawn Bradley - Penny, Mash, EJ are just a few of the guys picked behind him. Nuff said there. Then again, maybe no Iverson had they not picked him.

Jason Kidd - Seemed like a good pick, but was too much of a headache to have an impact on that team.

Antonio McDyess - Can't really say since he refused to play for the team that drafted him.

Marcus Camby - Risk that didn't pay off, but having a great year for the Nuggets.

Keith Van Horn - Sad story...good pick, but has played for ingrate fans and teammates his entire career and thus is never appreciated. People want to focus only on his weaknesses without thinking about his strengths. Wisconsin is a hospitable place though, I can see this latest trade working out. If I discussed why I thought Isiah traded him out of NY, I'd probably get banned, so I won't.

Mike Bibby- Solid pick, average PG until the trade

Steve Francis - See McDyess.

Stromile Swift - Was looking pretty bad until the second half of last year, when he became one of the more productive players per minute in the league. Never know how many minutes those Grizzlies are going to get though.

Tyson Chandler - Was poised for a breakout year, but I don't know what the fuck happened to him after the injury.

Jay Williams - Sad story, obviously, Don't know about the destined to be a backup thing in today's league.

Darko Milicic - Umm...we'll see, maybe...

 

And, once again, the Pistons have no excuse for passing on Carmelo to take Darko. Forget that "We already have a SF" shite. Michael Curry/Tayshaun Prince can't hold 'Melo's jock.

 

Umm..remember, you're the one who made this comparison.

 

And again, you're ignoring the fact that Prince isn't the #1 option on his team, like Melo is. Prince is the #4 option now since the trade for Sheed. Prince would be just as good, if not better, than 'Melo if he was the #1 option. Plus Melo has a REAL PG instead of a scorer who just happens to bring the ball up the floor. I got nothing against Melo, though it probably seems like I do, I just think people believe a little too much of his hype.

[Ripper 0]

Prince is a better shooter and a better hustle player, which is needed in Detoit. Yes, Melo can score on the block, which the Piston also wanted, but they also wanted a guy that could defend the big men. From the flashes of Darko that I have seen, he is going to be a monster rebounder, and is a hustler on Defense. The guy just needs more PT(we know that isn't coming) but he will be solid.

 

Armon Gillium was a BEAST for the Suns, Nets, and a few other teams. Double Double MACHINE. He was alittle more than a role player.

 

The way the draft works is taking the best player you can THAT FITS WHAT YOUR TEAM NEEDS not just the best player.

 

If the Lakers had the number one pick and a ungodly talented two guard was availible and a damn good small forward that wasn't quite as good as said two guard, you take the small forward(this is assuming that Kobe had just resigned for about 10 years and wasn't playing for the State of Colorado Prison team...ALLEGEDLY~!). I can look at those picks and say honestly, nearly all of those teams picked the best player for their team at that time.