Downhome 0 Report post Posted November 8, 2003 Ok, my posting this stems from watching a few older shows earlier this evening. It just makes me smile when I see the fans out in the crowd being active for the entire show, feeling that the matches could end at any second, believing that this just MIGHT be an upset, and basicly being on the edge of their seat move for move. Then once a big spot happened, and someone won (sometimes for any match, no matter who was in there) they just go totally insane. I loved how the guys in the booth actually preseneted their work as if each match truly matterd, that the heels were TRULY bad guys, and that the faces were there to save the day. Ok, so I'm old fashioned, so sue me. Still, could those days happen today? Had the business not been exposed as it was over the years, could we still have the same type of experiance. Would it be so bad if in interviews the boys didn't totally break character? Would it be so bad if the commentators actually sold it more so like it was real? I know that it's just about impossible to go back to those days now, but "what if". What if it remained as it was. Could that have even been possible? With the culture we live in right now, would it actually have a chance to remain? Or was what happened, turning it into "Sports Entertainment" actually required to keep the industry alive for the most part? Could the fans have continued to truly believe in heros and despise the heels. Not because they just like them, but because they truly BELIEVED in what they were seeing. I'm not saying actually believe that EVERYTHING was 100% real, just...be able to suspend their belief more than we see today. I wish that it could have continued, but the more I think about it, the less I actually think it could've been possible. I'm not saying that everyone would believe it's real and we live in the land of happy and glad. Just, you know...if it was presented more as it was back in the day. Thoughts? Sincerely, ...Downhome... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RavishingRickRudo 0 Report post Posted November 8, 2003 No, of course not. They break character all the time on ER, and Law and Order, and Friends... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jobber of the Week 0 Report post Posted November 8, 2003 Depends on how kayfabe is treated. Could they get audiences to believe that two guys hate each other, even in real life? Sure. Could they come up with a dramatic storyline, like one wrestler wants another wrestler's wife, and make it believable? Sure, as long as they keep it somewhat grounded in reality. Hell, there were people thinking that Jerry Springer was real for so many years. Could they make people believe that the Undertaker was a reanimated corpse? No. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Downhome 0 Report post Posted November 8, 2003 Could they make people believe that the Undertaker was a reanimated corpse? No. Oh I'm not talking about anything like that. If anything, I'm glad THAT day and age is long gone. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jobber of the Week 0 Report post Posted November 8, 2003 It also varies on what you mean by "heels that were TRULY bad guys" and superhero faces, etc. If you mean heelds that really could work a crowd into hating them, that's still going on, the reason we have so many tweeners (a phrase that wasn't even coined until around the time Nash wanted to play both sides in WCW) is because of lazy booking. There's some guys who could be some seriously hated heels if the booking wasn't holding them back. See how Jericho can work a crowd but is booked to look like a weakling, and now he keeps appearing with Trish, which is pretty much a face pop magnet nowadays. If you mean characters who are always heels such as the Million Dollar Man, I'm not so sure it would work. Very few characters work so successfully that they can stay a face or heel for years. And if they can't, it just shortens their career. Also keep nostalgia's rose-colored glasses in mind. People point to Hogan/Andre as the ultimate money feud, but that whole angle started over something as simple as a guy giving Hulk a bigger trophy than Andre and jealousy a-brewin'. Today's midcard matches get more build. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
1234-5678 0 Report post Posted November 8, 2003 It would work, because people are dumber nowadays then in the 70s 80s or 90s. Being gullible is a trend now, so it would work better then it ever did. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Downhome 0 Report post Posted November 8, 2003 My comment about the heels, well, I guess I mean that just as it sounds. For one I believe that in the industry in this day and age, we have too much "turning". It's almost hard to keep up with who is a face and who is a heel now, seeing how it seems to change on a monthly/weekly basis. We do need more long term faces and heels, I think so at least. It just allows the fans to get really familier with the character. Besides, once they finally DO turn the other way, it actually means something, thus the company could make so much more money off of the turn and the following matches that it leads to. It'd be like gaining a brand new wrestler to the roster. Other than that, I just wish the heels would be more heelish. It just seems like the actual art of being a heel is fading away. I miss the subtle things they used to do to show that they are heels, all of that sort of stuff. One of the main reasons that the heels, to me, aren't effective enough is because it's rare here to have a guy to actually truly be the main heel. It's as if all of the heels just work for someone, don't have a mind of their own, and are overshadowed. Like the other week when Brock, the WWE Champion came out and destroyed someone just for the hell of it because McMahon told him to. It did nothing for Brock in the end, it was all about someone OVER him. Which leads me to another point, that I believe that the day and age of the "evil owner" is dead and gone. It just isn't effective as it once was to me. If anything, I'd say it's time for the role of a Monsoon/Slaughter to return, a Presidential type of role. Of course it may be hard to have that role seeing how the McMahons have been on TV so much in every way. Linda McMahon basicly has the role that I'm talking about right now, as she usually only shows up when she needs to and when she DOES show up, you KNOW it's important. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Austin3164life 0 Report post Posted November 8, 2003 A lot of heels also have an extraordinary ability to connect with the audience, thus they become big babyfaces almost by default, and not by planning. This day and age, lazy booking prevents true character development, and thus, less fan participation into the character. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DerangedHermit 0 Report post Posted November 8, 2003 Could they make people believe that the Undertaker was a reanimated corpse? No. But I thought..... Oh wait...that's the Big Show. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ultra Violence 0 Report post Posted November 8, 2003 Hell, there were people thinking that Jerry Springer was real for so many years. Jerry.... Springer... Isn't....Real? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jester 0 Report post Posted November 8, 2003 People knew wrestling was fake long before kayfabe died, so I don't think that's the problem. I think what they need is internal consistency. While the show is on, there should be 100% dedication to kayfabe. At house shows, TV tapings, everything in the WWE canon. After the show has wrapped, if say, Jericho goes on OTR and talks about his character, that's fine. James Gandolfini goes on talk shows and talks about his character, but that doesn't stop people from enjoying the Sopranos. Of course, that show has way better writing, which is also a big factor. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LooseCannon25 0 Report post Posted November 8, 2003 I dont know if it could work or not...........They need realistic angles and characters. Some of these storylines are just so dumb that people can't get into it no matter how intense it is. I was watching Bloodbath the other day and the fans were so rabid and into it because you had 2 normal guys who just hated the everloving shit out of each other. You had Snuka vs. Muracco, Sammatino vs. Koloff, Blanchard vs. Magnum T.A......All heated rivalries with real reasons why there was hatred. Nowadays you have guys feuding for no damn reason. The only way it could go back to being the way it was is if it was back to being marketed as a "sporting event" rather than Entertainment. Not gonna happen, at lease not in WWE. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest FrigidSoul Report post Posted November 8, 2003 Feel free to rip a copy of Magnum T.A. vs Blanchard and send it to me. If by heels you mean the days of Arn Anderson, Flair, Rick Rude etc then yes...but not the Undertakers, Kanes or other over the top bullshit. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndrewTS 0 Report post Posted November 8, 2003 Marks are usually extremely stupid, so yes. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lord of The Curry 0 Report post Posted November 8, 2003 Assuming that the internet and technology progressed at the rate it dead-no. Kayfabe would be dead. There have been "smarks" in pro wrestling since time began. Back then, they were just guys who were more wise to the scene then most of the "marks." It would've evolved eventually and along with the growing internet, there's no way that it coulda lasted. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Downhome 0 Report post Posted November 8, 2003 I was watching Bloodbath the other day... That is one of the reasons that I posted this. If by heels you mean the days of Arn Anderson, Flair, Rick Rude etc then yes...but not the Undertakers, Kanes or other over the top bullshit. Yes, I mean HEELS, not fairy tale characters. I'm about about the guys you mentioned, and everyone else in that group. I mean, really...when did we last have a truly great heel, who was a heel for years and years, that was actually effective? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
haVoc 0 Report post Posted November 8, 2003 It wasn't years and years, but Triple H from mid 99' through May 2001 was a great run and was very effective. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LooseCannon25 0 Report post Posted November 8, 2003 It wasn't years and years, but Triple H from mid 99' through May 2001 was a great run and was very effective. I agree, Triple H was an awesome heel........and his character was very realistic, a man who has had enough of waiting for his time and is taking matters into his own hands. He was great in 99-2000. Besides him there are no great heels. I wanna see the 4 Horseman, Ted Dibiase, Randy Savage, Jake Roberts, Jerry Lawler. Even though some had somewhat of a gimmick it was realistic and added to their heelishness. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Downhome 0 Report post Posted November 8, 2003 I agree with both of you, HHH was a great heel. Not only does he actually have a bit of talent (he can have a good match, don't try to dispute that) but he has such a great heel character when he's on. It makes sense though, because as far as I remember he did look up to Ric Flair while growing up and the such. Back in '99-'00, HHH was ON. What pisses me off though, is that they fucking turned him face, they ruined a good thing just so he could get the babyface pop of returning from his injury, and play out the "storybook ending" by winning at WM. Just imagine if he had come back as a heel, he could have been even more cocky than ever. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest ravman77 Report post Posted November 8, 2003 I was watching Bloodbath the other day and the fans were so rabid and into it because you had 2 normal guys who just hated the everloving shit out of each other. You had Snuka vs. Muracco, Sammatino vs. Koloff, Blanchard vs. Magnum T.A......All heated rivalries with real reasons why there was hatred. Nowadays you have guys feuding for no damn reason. This is my big beef these days, the complete lack of continuity. Brock and Big Show knock the shit out of each other for months on end, few weeks later, theyre best buds. Why cant a face/heel have heat with another from their 'side'? Look at SS, Cena is rumoured to be joining Team Angle. He's fueded with Eddie and Angle for the last few months, why would he want to tag with them?! Because he's now a "face"? Thats just stupid. He should have as much heat with Eddie/Angle as he does with A-Train and Brock.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Downhome 0 Report post Posted November 8, 2003 I've said it over, and over, and over, and OVER again. It's not hard to figure out what's wrong with the product today. More than anything else, to me, it's the presentation of what's going on and how angles play out. That Cena example is great by the way. There is ONE situation where I would accept Cena being ok with Angle/Eddie. That being, that something MAJOR happened between him and A-Train, and he ended up hating him a hell of a lot more than how much he hates the other two guys. Then, just so he can get his hands on the guy he hates the most, he joins the other team of guys that he also hates...just not as much. At Survivor Series, I hope to God that they have him play up how he is reluctant to work with the guys on his team. I'm not saying keep him heel, just extend his turn a bit. Of course, the entire reason that he's pissed with A-Train isn't worth a shit and isn't anything major enough to have me care about that feud, so fuck it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lord of The Curry 0 Report post Posted November 8, 2003 I was watching Bloodbath the other day and the fans were so rabid and into it because you had 2 normal guys who just hated the everloving shit out of each other. You had Snuka vs. Muracco, Sammatino vs. Koloff, Blanchard vs. Magnum T.A......All heated rivalries with real reasons why there was hatred. Nowadays you have guys feuding for no damn reason. This is my big beef these days, the complete lack of continuity. Brock and Big Show knock the shit out of each other for months on end, few weeks later, theyre best buds. Why cant a face/heel have heat with another from their 'side'? Look at SS, Cena is rumoured to be joining Team Angle. He's fueded with Eddie and Angle for the last few months, why would he want to tag with them?! Because he's now a "face"? Thats just stupid. He should have as much heat with Eddie/Angle as he does with A-Train and Brock.... That's why they're probably going to work the "reluctant partner" angle w/ Cena. They can show him talking to Angle and Benoit about how he's not in this match to be a member of Team Angle, he's in it for revenge against the guys who took him out. Then, gradually, Cena learns the meaning of teamwork and ends up getting the respect of Angle and Benoit. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest FrigidSoul Report post Posted November 8, 2003 They could always have Cena and Angle as the winners and then have Cena give the beatdown on Angle. Characters do definately jump from heel to face and vice-versa too often nowadays. Its hard to make somebody hate another person they've cheered for so long or have them love somebody they've hated for so long and then have them go back to the original stance like nothing. I think the major part is they're confusing the fans on how they should feel about certain wrestlers. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The Czech Republic 0 Report post Posted November 8, 2003 Then, gradually, Cena learns the meaning of teamwork and ends up getting the respect of Angle and Benoit. "And that's how John Cena discovered the true meaning of Christmas." --A Very Special SmackDown Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RavishingRickRudo 0 Report post Posted November 8, 2003 .... IT BEGINS!!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lord of The Curry 0 Report post Posted November 8, 2003 Can Benoit be the surly elf who doesn't want to share his x-mas tree decorations?!!? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RavishingRickRudo 0 Report post Posted November 8, 2003 And it turns out that all the Canadians work for Santa?? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lord of The Curry 0 Report post Posted November 8, 2003 YES~! Edge, Christian, Jericho, Test, Benoit, Storm, Kim and Stratus are all part of the Canadian Elf Mafia. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RavishingRickRudo 0 Report post Posted November 8, 2003 John Cena is: The Cena Claus. *Film begins with a narration by an old man and a gust of snow (like a snow globe) revealing the city streets. As the narration continues the shot slowly zooms in to reveal John Cena* Narrator: Once upon a time, there was a boy. And he was the happiest boy in Boston. Until one day something very bad happened and that happy boy became vvvveeerrry angry. He was very mean to people, and as he grew up and used his gift of rhyming words to hurt others. He then became a professional wrestler so he could hurt others for a living. And that boy’s name was John… was John… was… was… *Before the shot totally reveals John Cena, it quickly turns to the old man as he is reading from a large, red, book. A small, elf-life, person comes to his side right away* Elf: Santa? Santa? Are you alright? Santa: Yes Olar, I am fine… it’s just, there is so much hate and rage in that man that it hurts me to think about it. Elf: So why don’t you stop thinking about it? *Santa smiles* Santa: Oh Olar, but then how… how… how… Elf: Santa??? Santa: Quick, Olar, I am not as well as I say I am… I need you… I need you… I need you to take this book and follow the instructions very carefully, there isn’t much time… you must… you must do it exactly as it says, without questioning…. Christmas must come this year, and you must find my replacement. *Return to the shot of Cena on the sidewalk* Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lord of The Curry 0 Report post Posted November 8, 2003 *is on the edge of his seat, waiting for the surly elf they call Benoit to crossface one of the reindeer* Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
