Conservative High schooler stirs up trouble

[Guest Olympic Slam]

Because Phil from England speaks English and would be more willing/able to assimiliate into American culture.

But, in my made-up story, Phil from England is an illegal alien! Illegal aliens are illegal aliens.

 

Poor people drain social services like Welfare and Medicaid.  Poor people (and especially those from a foreign culture) get desperate and take chances that could lead to crime.  America does not need more poor people.

 

Funny. I've read of a lot of kids who were born and raised in our culture, STILL are poor and still take a lot of chances that lead to crime. Go into your closest inner-city urban area and look around. You'll find some of these youth in person sooner or later.

 

Our nation can not sustain more and more poorly educated people; there's not enough wealth to go around.  It's not as if doctors and engineers, fluent in English are coming here illegally. 

 

So appearantly, the problem isn't education. It's about prefering wealthy immigrants?

 

Crying racism is not critical thought.

But this kid's propaganda had racist undertones. Maybe if you want to sit and expand on it, you can create something more of it. But taken at face value, it sounds like he's only upset about the kids with the funny names and the accents.

One more reply before the Sharks game.........

 

But, in my made-up story, Phil from England is an illegal alien! Illegal aliens are illegal aliens.

 

Eh, illegal or illegal it doesn't matter. Immigration needs to be strictly controlled anyway.

 

Funny. I've read of a lot of kids who were born and raised in our culture, STILL are poor  and still take a lot of chances that lead to crime. Go into your closest inner-city urban area and look around. You'll find some of these youth in person sooner or later.

 

Exactly, do we NEED more?

 

So appearantly, the problem isn't education. It's about prefering wealthy immigrants?

 

We need smart, succesful immigrants who can CREATE wealth rather than drain it from the tax payer.

 

But this kid's propaganda had racist undertones. Maybe if you want to sit and expand on it, you can create something more of it. But taken at face value, it sounds like he's only upset about the kids with the funny names and the accents

 

Well, it sure doesn't sound good, but that's the whole point. The more foreign sounding the name, the more likely that illegal immigrant is going to struggle in the U.S. Not that Phil from England couldn't turn out to be a total loser, but many would agree that Phil from England would have an easier time assimilating than say Ramon from Venezuela.

[Jobber of the Week 0]

Eh, illegal or illegal it doesn't matter. Immigration needs to be strictly controlled anyway.

I get the feeling again that you don't know what you're talking about. Have you had any relatives who live in other countries who want to move to the US? Have you heard from them lately?

 

My relatives from Northern Ireland visited last year. The wife wanted to move the family to the US so she inquired to immigration. They asked her, point blank, what job she could do that an American can't do. And it was phrased just like that. She couldn't figure that one out and her attempts ended there.

 

Now this is a family that's upper-middle class. They buy toys for her daughter. She goes to a religious private school where all the kids wear uniforms and everything. They speak English, and not crippled English. The husband is, well, let's just he's likely be a supporter of the second amendment, and he tries to squeeze in as many gun shows as he can manage to visit when he comes here.

 

In short, these are people you probably would not be offended to have in your neighborhood. But she couldn't think of a job that she, as an Irish immigrant, could do that someone of American-born blood couldn't. And thus it ends there.

 

My best guess is that the question was basically a nice way of saying "what kind of crappy job are you willing to do that an American doesn't want to do?" And if that's the case, are we not actually encouraging lower-quality immigrants? This is why I'm not a big fan of heavily-restricted immigration. Because who of moderate success is an equally-cultured country wants to give up everything to start with nothing over here?

 

If you want better immigrants, you need to improve immigration to the point that people can come in and do other tasks than clean your toilet and mop your floor.

 

We need smart, succesful immigrants who can CREATE wealth rather than drain it from the tax payer. 

 

In a somewhat similar point, immigrants who don't own fancy cars or speedboats buy things, and generate money for the wealthy.

[Guest cobainwasmurdered]

Because Phil from England speaks English and would be more willing/able to assimiliate into American culture.

 

Really? I dunno about that, I know alot of hard working muslims. Most Muslims I've met are hard working normal people who want to lead a happy successful like anyone else. They may have different values and religion but that doesn't make them any better or worse than Phil from England.

 

Poor people (and especially those from a foreign culture) get desperate and take chances that could lead to crime. America does not need more poor people. Our nation can not sustain more and more poorly educated people; there's not enough wealth to go around. It's not as if doctors and engineers, fluent in English are coming here illegally.

 

so no more "Give me your POOR... huddled masses"? and how can one poor person be anymore of a drain than another one based on where they are from?

 

and what's a foreign culture? Britain's culture is different than America's. So is Canada's. so is every nation. Should we only let in those who fit the blondblueeyed statute? or only those of aryian stock?

 

the muslim culture is just as valid as our own. some very bad people did some horrible horrible things in the name of their faith. some Muslims of course supported those horrible things. Others didn't. We see the pictures of them burning flags and chanting "Death To America" but what happens if they don't do that? maybe they'll be shot by the extremeists? sure that's only an idea and it may not be true but it's not like it's never been done before. Nazi Germany was like that. The vast majority of people dindn't hate the Jews but you wouldn't know that by the way things went during Hitler's reign of terror.

[Hektik 0]

Use the above as a short-hand argument against uncontrolled immigration as its straight and to the point. Most politicians and pundits (Hannity!) will not say what I just said because they're phoney wimps that are scared of the liberal media calling them racist or whatever latest buzz word is being used by the language facists to keep people quiet. I have given a LOT of critical thought to this issue. It's not about race, it's about economics, its about culture and its about nations. Crying racism is not critical thought.

I do not think most people look at both sides of the story when talking about illegal immigration. I live in South San Diego. Growing up I lived just a few miles from the US/Mexico border. I know how things are on the other side of the border so I know why they come here. As a latino I can see where some could take anti illegal immigration as racism. Sometimes people make it sound as if they do not want them here because they are inferior and of course, if you do not speak english you must not be educated.

 

Look at the economics of illegal immigration in a different way. I will give you an example, most vegetables in the grocery store are cheap. They are cheap because most companys pay illegals less than minimum wage. Now lets say we get rid of all the illegals and hire Legal residents/citizens to do the work in the fields. Right off the bat you have to pay them at least minimum wage. But I know for a fact that legal residents/citizens are not going to work in the fields for minimum wage. So now the price of vegetables goes up because labor is no longer cheap. But wait, not only do you have to pay these worker above minimum wage, you also have to give them health insurance. Now after all that do you think vegetables will still be so cheap, and if there is one thing I know about Americans is that they will bitch about a few cents extra for gasoline. Do you think Americans will still be so against illegal immigration if the prices on the things they take for granted go up?

[tommytomlin 0]

Fear of communism in 1960's and 1980's - Justified (mainly because of the whole 'Nuclear War' thing)

 

Fear of communism in the year 2004 - Retarded.

[Guest Olympic Slam]

Fear of communism in 1960's and 1980's - Justified (mainly because of the whole 'Nuclear War' thing)

 

Fear of communism in the year 2004 - Retarded.

This right here is my point. People are blind to what makes a nation. We're being told everyday that Al-Qaeda is the big threat to America when in fact there are far bigger worries. Why? Because a building can get blown up and America, the nation will still exist. The Soviets/Cubans could have nuked Florida but the United States would still exist. Islamic fascists can fly planes into towers and the nation will still exist. Your way of life will not change that much if there is another terrorist attack. Sure, many people will lose loved one's and our government will freak out (as well they should) but our lives won't change that much. The supermarket will stay open down the street, your job will still exist, you'll still be able to vote freely and I'm certain that SportsCenter will still be on ESPN.

Nations exist because of some kind of shared culture. However, if the culture is tampered with, then are you STILL living in America? This is where I agree with the left on the whole thing with the Patriot Act. Not that I'm against the current Patriot Act, but I fear that the War on Terror or something similar could lead to us losing a lot of rights. If we did lose our rights, then do we still live in America? Remember, America isn't a slab of land, its an idea and ideas can be taken away in an instant.

 

This is why I fear the very real socialist/communist threat to America as well as illegal immigration. Socialism, no matter how big or small will change our country. Something like universal health care could bankrupt America beyond repair and the country's economic system would collapse: thus ruining what makes America special. Cultural Relativism (a cog in the socialist machine) aims to use government so that all cultures are put on a level playing field: no matter what damage it does to businesses and communities. More and more immigration from poor nations can result in a larger lower class in America. I don't outright oppose immigration. My dad's side of my family came to the U.S from Canada and I have aunts and uncles that have come from other nations (Korea, Mexico, Norway). But when they came to America, they came here to become Americans. That immediately bought into the culture and did everything in their power to fit in. My aunt from Korea still has yet to teach her children Korean because she wants them to learn English first so that they can have the best possible opportunities and fit in best.

 

I love America because it's not Mexico, Russia, China, or Italy. I don't want to live in a country like China where property is owned by the state. I don't want to live in a Muslim culture where women are treated like dirt. I don't want to live in a caste system like India. I want to live in capitalist America where ability is more important than religion or skin color and where we're free to do as we choose. But this nation cannot survive if we pile on bigger government handouts. And the country cannot survive economically if we load the boat with more and more people that will inevitably be dependent on government. I wish America would wake up and realize how special this country is. We're begging for our nation's death when we increase the size of government and invite in cultures that have no desire to at least assimilate a little. You could wake up in either a third world country, a Spanish speaking country, or a socialist "paradise" some day if we're not careful.

 

If real Americans on this message board can't grasp how special America is and what a NATION is, how can we expect hordes of immigrants to figure out how special it is? It's not because the streets are paved with gold, it’s because of our brilliant bi-cameral legislative houses, our fantastic economic system and the most tolerant people on the planet. Venezuela is the way it is because of its culture. India is the way it is because of its culture. Japan is the way it is because of its culture. People are responsible for the governments they get because the people there made it themselves.

 

I just don't want America to end up like the Native Americans. Remember, people who “just came here to work” stole their land and culture. Please remember this, America isn't a slab of land: it's an idea. When the culture and idea is gone, then you no longer have a nation. I can go on and on and on with this (as I have lots to say on this topic because I've thought long and hard about it.) But illegal immigration is more than just 30 cents cheaper lettuce. It's about America the nation. You, do want to have a nation right?

 

EDIT:

If you want better immigrants, you need to improve immigration to the point that people can come in and do other tasks than clean your toilet and mop your floor.

I agree completely. Corporarations and the sleazy politicans don't know what kind of damage their doing. All they see is cheaper labor rather than the possible damage they're could be inflicting. I'm a capitalist, but I wish some things would take precedent over a little extra profit.

[Jobber of the Week 0]

This right here is my point. People are blind to what makes a nation. We're being told everyday that Al-Qaeda is the big threat to America when in fact there are far bigger worries.

And here you are, just like your buddy Savage, declaring liberalism a bigger threat to the country than terrorism.

 

It takes a lot to make me snap on someone. I mean, it takes a WHOLE lot. Normally I laugh off idiocy and attacks. But not this time. Fuck you for belittling and minimalizing the deaths of 3,000 innocent people to display importance for your extreme partisan agenda.

 

And then, to pour salt on the wound, you "agree with the left" on the Patriot Act. Like Savage, you discredit logical arguement with your black or white, us or them, do or die view of partisan politics. And dead Americans are simply a statistic to be taken lightly in comparison to the "threat" of the left.

 

 

Did you ever look at that with critical thought? I mean, honestly? Or did you just grab a yellow highlighter and mark down that paragraph out of "The Savage Nation" for use in future debates without thinking twice?

 

Because, I've seen plenty of rhetoric, and I've even seen 9/11 used for political ends. But goddamn, this one takes the cake.

[Guest Olympic Slam]

This right here is my point.  People are blind to what makes a nation.  We're being told everyday that Al-Qaeda is the big threat to America when in fact there are far bigger worries.

And here you are, just like your buddy Savage, declaring liberalism a bigger threat to the country than terrorism.

 

It takes a lot to make me snap on someone. I mean, it takes a WHOLE lot. Normally I laugh off idiocy and attacks. But not this time. Fuck you for belittling and minimalizing the deaths of 3,000 innocent people to display importance for your extreme partisan agenda.

 

And then, to pour salt on the wound, you "agree with the left" on the Patriot Act. Like Savage, you discredit logical arguement with your black or white, us or them, do or die view of partisan politics. And dead Americans are simply a statistic to be taken lightly in comparison to the "threat" of the left.

 

 

Did you ever look at that with critical thought? I mean, honestly? Or did you just grab a yellow highlighter and mark down that paragraph out of "The Savage Nation" for use in future debates without thinking twice?

 

Because, I've seen plenty of rhetoric, and I've even seen 9/11 used for political ends. But goddamn, this one takes the cake.

I'm not diminishing 9/11. My blood boils everytime I see 9/11 footage. And how DARE the media hide the horrofic images of 9/11 from us. We need to see what the intolerant monsters of fundamentalist Islam have done to us The planes being sent into the towers should be seen daily and shown to everyone along with a description of the people and culture who did that to us. The footage of people leaping to their death from the towers should be shown more than once so people can grasp the true magnittude of what happend over two years ago. And yes, the War on Terror is the right thing to do. But attacks on our soil will not change our country. The Patriot Act and some subtle changes to our way of life are what 9/11 has done to the nation.

 

America is fighting a two-front war. There's a culture war in America of capitalism vs socialism. Right vs. Wrong. God vs. No God. There's also a physical war against radical Islam. One wants to kill us, the other wants to kill or change our nation. My classic analogy: Americans killed a lot of Native Americans, but the other form of killing was robbing them of their way of life and of their culture. A lot of Native Americans were killed at 15, but died many years later at 70. Give that some thought. I'm just raising some questions about nations and cultures.

 

EDIT: And I didn't think I said liberalism is the big threat, I said socialism/communism are the big threats. A REAL liberal (I'm a real liberal) would be against such totalitarian systems.

[Guest JMA]

I'm surprised so many right-wingers like Weiner. The guy was a draft dodging hippie who sold "herbal remedies." Not exactly someone who fits the ultra-conservative profile. Still, lots of intelligent conservatives hate his guts. And rightly so.

[Guest Olympic Slam]

I'm surprised so many right-wingers like Weiner. The guy was a draft dodging hippie who sold "herbal remedies." Not exactly someone who fits the ultra-conservative profile. Still, lots of intelligent conservatives hate his guts. And rightly so.

I like his style. His herbal and hippie days are long gone as he went from being a liberal social worker to chaning his political outlook to what it is now. He brings up stuff that's swept under the rug by most and he goes beyond topics of Republicans vs. Democrats that lesser hosts like Hannity resort to. He talks about stuff that actually matters. But I don't think he's enough of a capitalist for me. I think he cares more about America (the land area) than he does about what exactly makes America great, i.e capitalism. I still tune into his show during my drive home from school.

[Jobber of the Week 0]

But attacks on our soil will not change our country.

How do you define a country? A country is made of it's people, right? For if there are no people, then there is no one to defend it's borders and the country ceases to exist.

 

If you believe that, then 9/11 has changed our country, and generally for the better when you get beyond the issue of the deaths. More people are paying attention to what's going on within their country instead of spending five months focusing on Britney Spears' wedding, and more people are voting with a concience instead of staying home or flagrantly waving their voting pens for people they know nothing about.

 

The problem with all this political awakening is people who can not accept anything unlike themselves. They refuse to even listen to the other side of the aisle when it's bringing up worthy dialogue, and consider their view to be some sort of gospel. The only ultimate in truth and what's right. And anyone who disagrees, no matter why for, is wrong because he doesn't see it like they do. They should be given perhaps the most basic respect, but ignore what they say, because if they were so smart they would have agreed with you by now.

 

The kid in the article, Savage, and appearantly you are all like that. Any starting off with the best of intentions (eliminating liberal bias at school, enforcing America's immigration policy, protecting civil rights) never get off the ground, because while attempting to dialogue with others on solving these problems, you demonize them in the discourse.

 

Right vs. Wrong.  God vs. No God.

 

Do you REALLY want to go down that road? There's a number of people on both side of the aisle who believe in a secular America as one of the fundamentals of freedom.

 

My classic analogy:  Americans killed a lot of Native Americans, but the other form of killing was robbing them of their way of life and of their culture.  A lot of Native Americans were killed at 15, but died many years later at 70.  Give that some thought.  I'm just raising some questions about nations and cultures.

 

I've given this thought previously. Usually when people get overactive to "protect our culture" and the government steps in by enacting some far-reaching protectionist laws, average people find their lives affected. Look no further than Quebec to see cultural protectionism in action. Own a video game machine? Interested in the new Sonic the Hedgehog game? You can't get it, you have to buy it from another country, such as the US, because Sega has refused to cooperate with the law requiring French versions of all box packaging dialog be printed alongside the English.

 

This is a somewhat simple example, but it's simple nature belies the problem with government intervention.

[Jobber of the Week 0]

Oh, and PS, if you want to get across a point, use the word "aisle" as an imaginary boundary a lot.

 

 

I don't know how I wound up using that word so many times in that post. Seriously.

[BX 0]

Fear of communism in 1960's and 1980's - Justified (mainly because of the whole 'Nuclear War' thing)

 

Fear of communism in the year 2004 - Retarded.

bunch of stuff

You know, when I was a freshman in college, there was an older woman in my class who was convinced that the Communists were responsible for 9/11.

 

She also thought that the unusual amount of shark attacks on the East Coast in the summer of 2001 was the fault of said Communist, who had trained said sharks in tanks full of American blood on the shores of the Baltic Sea.

 

So yeah..

[Guest Olympic Slam]

But attacks on our soil will not change our country.

How do you define a country? A country is made of it's people, right? For if there are no people, then there is no one to defend it's borders and the country ceases to exist.

 

If you believe that, then 9/11 has changed our country, and generally for the better when you get beyond the issue of the deaths. More people are paying attention to what's going on within their country instead of spending five months focusing on Britney Spears' wedding, and more people are voting with a concience instead of staying home or flagrantly waving their voting pens for people they know nothing about.

 

The problem with all this political awakening is people who can not accept anything unlike themselves. They refuse to even listen to the other side of the aisle when it's bringing up worthy dialogue, and consider their view to be some sort of gospel. The only ultimate in truth and what's right. And anyone who disagrees, no matter why for, is wrong because he doesn't see it like they do. They should be given perhaps the most basic respect, but ignore what they say, because if they were so smart they would have agreed with you by now.

 

The kid in the article, Savage, and appearantly you are all like that. Any starting off with the best of intentions (eliminating liberal bias at school, enforcing America's immigration policy, protecting civil rights) never get off the ground, because while attempting to dialogue with others on solving these problems, you demonize them in the discourse.

 

Right vs. Wrong.  God vs. No God.

 

Do you REALLY want to go down that road? There's a number of people on both side of the aisle who believe in a secular America as one of the fundamentals of freedom.

 

My classic analogy:  Americans killed a lot of Native Americans, but the other form of killing was robbing them of their way of life and of their culture.  A lot of Native Americans were killed at 15, but died many years later at 70.  Give that some thought.  I'm just raising some questions about nations and cultures.

 

I've given this thought previously. Usually when people get overactive to "protect our culture" and the government steps in by enacting some far-reaching protectionist laws, average people find their lives affected. Look no further than Quebec to see cultural protectionism in action. Own a video game machine? Interested in the new Sonic the Hedgehog game? You can't, you have to buy it from another country, such as the US, because Sega has refused to cooperate with the law requiring French versions of all box packaging dialog be printed alongside the English.

 

This is a somewhat simple example, but it's simple nature belies the problem with government intervention.

How do you define a country? A country is made of it's people, right? For if there are no people, then there is no one to defend it's borders and the country ceases to exist.

Ah, but can a nation or country exist if there are no ideas or shared values? If people don't at least believe in some things together, then are they really a nation? Is a family still a family if there is no love? A nation and a country are two different things. A nation is a group of people organized politically yet share the same culture and values. The country is where the nation lives. Quebecers and the French are a nation yet share different countries or states. The Native Americans have individual nations but are without a country. A country can not exist without at least some well defined national culture. America has been very lucky in that we've been able to combine many people from many different nations yet still form one super-nation. Thank god for assimilation and capitalism, or we would have never made it out of the 1940's.

 

If you believe that, then 9/11 has changed our country, and generally for the better when you get beyond the issue of the deaths. More people are paying attention to what's going on within their country instead of spending five months focusing on Britney Spears' wedding, and more people are voting with a concience instead of staying home or flagrantly waving their voting pens for people they know nothing about.

There have been some positive side effects. It's really sad that it took 3,000+ people to die for Americans to start paying attention to the news again. But, 50+ years of ignorant bliss can sort of spoil a nation. Once we zapped Germany, Japan and the USSR, America kind of went on auto-pilot for awhile.

 

The problem with all this political awakening is people who can not accept anything unlike themselves. They refuse to even listen to the other side of the aisle when it's bringing up worthy dialogue, and consider their view to be some sort of gospel. The only ultimate in truth and what's right. And anyone who disagrees, no matter why for, is wrong because he doesn't see it like they do. They should be given perhaps the most basic respect, but ignore what they say, because if they were so smart they would have agreed with you by now

I agree, the War on Terror needs serious debate. Unfortunately, the right does whatever Bush wants. There's a few right-wing dissentors like Pat Buchanan (but he's in no area of power) but that's about it. The left is either A) afraid to question Bush and lose political ground (the dopes running for Prez) or B) opposing, not the war but George W. Bush. (See Howard Dean and the Hollywood types.) I think we're at the point now where we need to take a step back and look at what we're doing. Can we really change the entire Middle East? That's an insanely daunting task.

 

Do you REALLY want to go down that road? There's a number of people on both side of the aisle who believe in a secular America as one of the fundamentals of freedom.

I'm not at all religious, but I think we need to make a clear distinction between Freedom of Religion, not Freedom from Religion. I think we can agree that the founders intended for us to use the first.

 

 

I've given this thought previously. Usually when people get overactive to "protect our culture" and the government steps in by enacting some far-reaching protectionist laws, average people find their lives affected. Look no further than Quebec to see cultural protectionism in action. Own a video game machine? Interested in the new Sonic the Hedgehog game? You can't, you have to buy it from another country, such as the US, because Sega has refused to cooperate with the law requiring French versions of all box packaging dialog be printed alongside the English.

 

This is a somewhat simple example, but it's simple nature belies the problem with government intervention.

Good points as you've essentially brought up the issue of open borders (states/countries) vs. closed borders (no states, just groupings) and the always fun "globalism vs. anti-globalism" debate. Basically, should governments go to great lengths to protect their cultures even if it is to the detriment of their citizens? Heavy stuff. Quebec, and Canada as a whole I suppose, are classic examples of nations without autonomous states. Quebec and France are examples of "how badly to you want to protect your culture?" Same goes for Palestine and Israel, but that's a far darker and far more confusing example. I don't live in Canada so I don't have the luxary of having Francophone-Anglophone horror stories. Most I hear are similiar to the Sonic analogy. The French, like the Arab-Muslim world, are right in the middle of this culture vs. state debate. Both feel very threatened by English/Western thinking/customs and have done a lot to protect their cultures. For the French, is langauge the only thing "holding them back" from joining the rest of us in the English speaking portion of the western culture?

[Rob E Dangerously 0]

Yes, communism, marxism and socialism are HUGE threats to America right now. A far bigger threat than Islamic terrorism.

 

I wonder how many more thousands have to die before somebody realizes his priorities are fucked up.

 

I'm not diminishing 9/11. My blood boils everytime I see 9/11 footage. And how DARE the media hide the horrofic images of 9/11 from us. We need to see what the intolerant monsters of fundamentalist Islam have done to us The planes being sent into the towers should be seen daily and shown to everyone along with a description of the people and culture who did that to us. The footage of people leaping to their death from the towers should be shown more than once so people can grasp the true magnittude of what happend over two years ago.

 

#1 - I bet the communists are hiding 9/11!

 

#2 - Sounds like alot of work, for something that isn't more of a threat than Universal Health Care. Do you want it both ways?

 

I suspect you keep a list of the Communist Goals for America, and you cross off entries from time to time.

 

As for Immigration, while I am sure the #1 threat there is Communist immigrants and all, soon enough, an illegal won't be so illegal if he gets an employer to give him a permission slip.

 

[Jobber of the Week 0]

I agree, the War on Terror needs serious debate.  Unfortunately, the right does whatever Bush wants.  There's a few right-wing dissentors like Pat Buchanan (but he's in no area of power) but that's about it.  The left is either A) afraid to question Bush and lose political ground (the dopes running for Prez) or B) opposing, not the war but George W. Bush. (See Howard Dean and the Hollywood types.)  I think we're at the point now where we need to take a step back and look at what we're doing.  Can we really change the entire Middle East?  That's an insanely daunting task.

Perhaps you failed to see the point I was making in all that.

 

I don't understand how giving equal, non-religious (i.e. not marriage), domestic rights to gay couples somehow sends us spinning out of countrol into some kind of undemocratic socialist paradise controlled by the Chinese illuminati, which is pretty close to what I heard Savage say back when I used to listen to him (this is before being conservative was popular again and he seemed really off the edge.)

 

Now, if you wanted to explain this to me, I'd listen. I may agree only in part with what you're saying or might say I fully disagree, but unless you say something truly around the bend, I'm not going to think of you as stupid for it. That one guy who posted here and said that we should all live like cavemen because they didn't have any governments or responsibilities? He's stupid. How about TheMikeSC, who I've only agreed with on (I think) two occasions? He's not stupid, sometimes ignorant, but not stupid.

 

So I can still respect someone with a differing opinion as long as they don't act like a loon. This credo that leftward-thinking Americans are more threatening to the country they also want to protect than al-Qaeda is pretty loony.

 

So basically what I'm trying to say is real honest to goodness stuff that we can agree on, or meet midway on, like illegals (I don't agree with giving them handouts either, though we may not agree on border restrictions) become trivialized due to this attitude that is, well, I'll say it's part McCarthyism, and part Ann Coulter's "I'll just call them traitorous and unAmerican because they don't see it my way" tactic.

 

I'm not at all religious, but I think we need to make a clear distinction between Freedom of Religion, not Freedom from Religion.  I think we can agree that the founders intended for us to use the first. 

 

So out of curiosity, to what extent are we talking about here? Are you simply saying you dont have a problem with God in the pledge in the money?

 

Or are you saying you agree with Roy Moore that our country was based around Chrstianity worship and God should be evident in the government's public square, even at the exclusion of other citizens (i.e. first commandment)?

 

Or are you going even further into Jerry Falwell's territory, wanting to base laws and judgment around what's written in the Bible?

 

 

Both feel very threatened by English/Western thinking/customs and have done a lot to protect their cultures.  For the French, is langauge the only thing "holding them back" from joining the rest of us in the English speaking portion of the western culture?

 

And the irony in this is western culture can be so shaped by other cultures. We visit other cultures, create (usually) inoffensive stereotypes of their culture, and emulate it in our theme parks and Las Vegas casinos.

[Guest Olympic Slam]

So I can still respect someone with a differing opinion as long as they don't act like a loon. This credo that leftward-thinking Americans are more threatening to the country they also want to protect than al-Qaeda is pretty loony.

It's not liberals that are the problem, its socialist/marxist/big government types that want to cripple capitalism. I don't know how anyone can disagree with me on this. I think you (and the other board members who have replied) are more infuriated with HOW I'm making my points rather than my actual point. You need to look past the partisaninship and take into account what a nation is, how it is formed and how it can be taken from you. Deep down, you know what I'm saying is true. If we lose our culture, our civil rights, our economic system and our soverignty then we lose our nation. If we lose our nation, especially one as amazing as the U.S, then we suffer as humans. The terrorists and North Korea could kill us, but that doesn't neccessarily mean that we would still lose our nation. It would take an insane amount of killing and destruction for the U.S to get taken over by another culture. But, our country can still be conquered without a single drop of blood.

 

Onto religion......

So out of curiosity, to what extent are we talking about here? Are you simply saying you dont have a problem with God in the pledge in the money?

 

Or are you saying you agree with Roy Moore that our country was based around Chrstianity worship and God should be evident in the government's public square, even at the exclusion of other citizens (i.e. first commandment)?

 

Or are you going even further into Jerry Falwell's territory, wanting to base laws and judgment around what's written in the Bible?

I have no problem with God in the money or in the pledge because our nation was founded on the principle that we are not in debt to Kings, Queens and dicatators but to our Gods. What is a God? I have no idea, but we should not be bowing before anything of lesser stature. Basically, it means that no human should rise above another to that of Godlike status. This philospophical belief is key to our nation's founding.

I believe that our nation needs right and wrong because without right and wrong, good and bad, up or down, then we do not have a nation. We have to agree upon something right? Otherwise, we don't have a culture and a nation to go with it. The Ten Commandments, regardless of their biblical ties, are a good and historical starting point for crafting a nation's structure and belief of right and wrong. I think we've done pretty well with them for the last 200+ years. It's not about God, it's about sharing a common ground of morals. The biblical ties to these rules, in my eyes, are merely of historical interest. Roy Moore should have been allowed to keep the Commandements displayed because they are a part of America's culture, history and justice system. Unfortunately, very few people see it like I do. There is too much emphasis on promoting God or keeping God out. People need to realize its about right and wrong, law and order and not about some dude with a long beard who supposedly invented the universe.

 

 

Nobody ever said creating nations was going to be easy. Thanks to the free-market and capitalism, the U.S has been able to survive all of these years despite including aspects from hundreds of other cultures. Yes there is crime and some intolerance, but its a small price to pay for personal and individual freedom. I just fear that America will crumble if we remove the economic and freedom systems that keep this country working to near perfection. We're lucky in that, people are judged in this country not by race, religion, or some kind of bizzare birth-right, but by ability. I can only imagine the horror that would be America if that were taken away from us (communism/socialism). The terrorist can steal your life, but an internal force that aims to change our culture can kill our nation. The scary thing is that there aren't any yellow or orange alerts for the creeping socialism in America. It's a two-front war. Fight the terrorists abroad and fight the culture change at home via the ballot box.

[NoCalMike 0]

So I can still respect someone with a differing opinion as long as they don't act like a loon. This credo that leftward-thinking Americans are more threatening to the country they also want to protect than al-Qaeda is pretty loony.

It's not liberals that are the problem, its socialist/marxist/big government types that want to cripple capitalism. I don't know how anyone can disagree with me on this.

Ok, but how does conservatives seemingly having no problem, if not making it even easier, for jobs and production to LEAVE this country, fit into this equation? I think the biggest thing being overlooked by all sides of the mainstream political spectrum is the fact that jobs, hi-tech, good-paying jobs are leaving the country at an alarming rate. It seems that no candidate wants to address this and try and provide a solution to this. I don't like how candidates on both sides just get up there and say, "this will provide more jobs for americans" I mean big deal, if more wal-marts are built, yes everyone is going to get a minimum wage job and probably barely survive, while our good jobs including PRODUCTION are shipped off to India/Mexico/central america etc......and then our own "american products" are being imported back to us. Car companies are a good example. Ford/Chevy can barely even be called american cars since most of their parts are made overseas with cheap labor. A candidate may be able to open up more retail jobs that suck, but what good really are those if that is the only thing available to the MASSES. We don't just need "jobs" we need good high-end jobs, NEW JOBS for that matter. I just don't understand how our politicians who keep talking about creating jobs, can outright ignore the daily headlines about this company and that company shipping jobs overseas. To me that is what is going to hurt this country the most.

[Ace309 0]

FUCK DIRECTIONS! ALL THIS LEFT AND RIGHT BULLSHIT, AND NO ONES GOING FOWARD!!! ARGH!!!!!!!!!!111

 

I think I should leave this folder for my own good.....

Well, that was a pointless post that either ignorantly or willfully misused two words that have specific meanings in the context.

[Dr. Tyler; Captain America 0]

They're hip. They're republicans.

 

They're hipublicans!

 

CONSERVACOOL!

[Guest MikeSC]

They're hip. They're republicans.

 

They're hipublicans!

 

CONSERVACOOL!

You frequent pandagon?

 

Hey, me too.

 

Hilariously out-of-touch, psychotic libs.

 

Seriously, you conservatives here GOT to see it.

 

Of course, that is the kind of site where Lenin would be viewed as being a bit too right-wing.

-=Mike

[Dr. Tyler; Captain America 0]

Yeah, but hell, Jesse and Ezra are at least entertaining.

[Guest MikeSC]

Yeah, but hell, Jesse and Ezra are at least entertaining.

Oh, they're a hoot. Just completely insane.

-=Mike

[Stephen Joseph 0]

To Olympic,

 

Umm dood. Communism's dead. There's no threat from that type of political system anymore. Period. Learn something about history will you?

 

You're confusing systems of government and thought with american paternalism.

 

Someone should really learn a bit before spousing off on subjects like they know it.

 

*sigh, but then again, No one listens to the economists*

 

And if you would like to call me, ohhh leftist, then you're way off base. I'm not, I listen to Hannity, and have since he started in Atlanta.

 

Now, you claim this leftist thought is the greatest danger to America? It's not. The greatest danger to America are extremeist thoughts on BOTH sides of the spectrum...

 

America is NOT one single concept that forever stays the same. Our founding fathers realized this, and created a document that could change as society changed. Society changes because our ability to produce changes.

 

Making America adhere to one thought, one ideology, and one way of living will kill America.

 

They way you talk, it seems like you want to champion freedom. You only champion silence.

Edited January 23, 2004 by Stephen Joseph

[Dr. Tyler; Captain America 0]

Oh, they're a hoot. Just completely insane.

-=Mike

But who isn't?

[Guest netslob]

FUCK DIRECTIONS! ALL THIS LEFT AND RIGHT BULLSHIT, AND NO ONES GOING FOWARD!!! ARGH!!!!!!!!!!111

 

I think I should leave this folder for my own good.....

Well, that was a pointless post that either ignorantly or willfully misused two words that have specific meanings in the context.

actually, the funny part is, he's right. partisan politics, for my money, is bullshit. this is supposed to be the "United Sates", emphasis on UNITED...how are we, as a people, supposed to unite when the fucking government can't be bothered to? why not run as an individual instead of as a party?

[Dr. Tyler; Captain America 0]

Because an ancient Greece-style democracy would be hideously inefficient

[Guest netslob]

and the system we got now isn't?

[Dr. Tyler; Captain America 0]

It's more efficient than ancient Greek democracy, yes.

[Stephen Joseph 0]

i gotta agree with tyler on this one...

 

plus, you really want to see clinton or bush in a toga?