Edge confirmed for RAW

[Downhome 0]

Bah, I hate this.

 

I also hope that HHH takes care of Edge very quickly after WM, I really do. With that said, I don't understand why they are moving him from SD to RAW, as SD needs him much more than RAW. It just seems odd how they are messing with the SD roster, and not really RAW.

[Guest PowerPB13]

They need more balance...move some people to Smackdown like RVD who are lost in the shuffle. As is, it seems like everybody's piling up on the Raw side.

 

-Patrick

[humongous2002 0]

I hate to resort to cheap heat, but "you can't spell overrated without RVD". Not as horrible as people say, but I cannot see him as a main eventer.

First of all that wasn't cheap heat, just a corny joke.Second you are entitled to your opinion about RVD(can't expect everybody to like Rob), but as far as i know a lot of smarks and marks that i know agreed that he is over enough to get a world title push, but it gets them frustrated when WWE refuses to do anything with him.RVD hasn't had any type of push whatsoever and for some strange reason the fans still chant for him, even Booker T hasn't recover from last year's HHH treatment. Overrated or not he's still more over than Benoit(who is one of my favorites too), but b/c of politics(not his wrestling skills, him being stiff or his mic skills) he is not being allowed to go out there and shine.

[Spaceman Spiff 0]

I still think they should move Helms to Smackdown and have him drop the Hurricane crap.

I don't understand why people think that Helms needs to drop the "Hurricane" persona. It distinguishes him from the more generic cruiserweights and it's an entertaining gimmick.

 

Rosey needs something different, granted...he's extremely agile for his size, but the sidekick thing isn't doing much for him.

 

-Patrick

How much more can they do w/ the gimmick? They made him stop doing the chokeslam, so that shows you how committed they are to staying true to the gimmick.

 

He's been doing the gimmick for a few years now, and as long as he stays with it, he won't go anywhere other than "Raw comedy jobber". Dropping the gimmick would freshen him up, and possibly give him a chance to move up the card.

 

I'd like to see him try a heel run as "Sugar Shane" pretty boy dick, preferably on SD.

[NoCalMike 0]

Edge is not bad, but he is not spectacular either. He is bland and rather vanilla, and would not benefit from working with a stiff like HHH. Add to that, the fact that he really doest just deserve to be thrust into the main event upon his return. I don't think the fans will buy him in top spot anyway since he wasn't even close to that ever.

[Downhome 0]

I think the guy has a hell of a lot of talent. He just needs to totally change his gimmick, just about his entire moveset, and just go at things from a different dirrection.

 

I'd rather him have a gimmick something like what he had back in the days of The Brood. Some sort of crazy heel, because in my opinion that look fits him much better than the goofy face.

 

If he MUST be a face, then he needs to totally drop all of the goofy aspects from it, it makes him look like a moron and I will never be able to accept him as any sort of threat with him acting like that.

 

As for his moveset, well, for some guys it works mixing in a more cruiserweight style with a heavy set, but it doesn't work for him. He needs to decide on a style, and stick with it.

[humongous2002 0]

Edge is not bad, but he is not spectacular either. He is bland and rather vanilla, and would not benefit from working with a stiff like HHH. Add to that, the fact that he really doest just deserve to be thrust into the main event upon his return. I don't think the fans will buy him in top spot anyway since he wasn't even close to that ever.

Not for nothing if i had a choice of having Edge or Orton pushed as a main eventer, i would definitely go with Edge.The guy just needs to bulk up some more and he will look like a main eventer and he is easy to carry compared to an Orton or Batista.

[Guest Goodear]

Why does everyone have a problem with having one face in the company that actually acts like one with absolutely no (oddly enough) edge to it? Not everyone in the company should be some growling serious killer. He's funny and light and fluffy and people love him for it. Besides, cultivating a face character is about 50% harder than a heel anyway, why take one of the few guys that is naturally likable and try to make him into something that he's not?

[Guest Loss]

Why does everyone have a problem with having one face in the company that actually acts like one with absolutely no (oddly enough) edge to it? Not everyone in the company should be some growling serious killer. He's funny and light and fluffy and people love him for it. Besides, cultivating a face character is about 50% harder than a heel anyway, why take one of the few guys that is naturally likable and try to make him into something that he's not?

Exactly. It's much harder to get cheers than boos, especially in modern WWE. Good babyfaces are even more of a rarity than good heels.

[Guest Coffey]

Interesting to see what comes from Edge & Christian again.

[Guest Goodear]

God, I hope not. Christian hasn't done dick to change an iota since those days, while Edge has taken much more significant strides. I hope to god we never see that tag team again.

[Downhome 0]

Exactly. It's much harder to get cheers than boos, especially in modern WWE. Good babyfaces are even more of a rarity than good heels.

That's never been true to me at all. Look down through the history of wrestling and look at everyone who was went from heel to face and vice versa. Any moron can go out there and do stupid shit like a Stink Face, The Worm, simply say the name of the town where ever you are, do a run in and save another face who is more over than you, and so on.

 

It take real talent to go out there and to get the fans to hate your guts. Look at someone like Orton and everything that's been done to get him over as a heel. It simply hasn't worked like it could for other people. Look at Rocky and Austin as they were TRYING to play the role of heel at various times in their career, but the fans just wouldn't buy into it, and basicly turned them face for them.

 

Throughout history it's been easier to be a face than a heel. To be a heel, you really need to know how to piss people off, how to get the fans worked up, and how to even use your movements in the ring. You can get just about anyone over as a face, but some people just can not be taken seriously as a heel, no matter what you give them to do. Look at people like Rikishi and TBS who can always be over as a face, but they REALLY have to work to be a heel. The same goes for an endless ammount of guys in the industry, to be a true heel takes a hell of a lot more hard work than to be a simple babyface. Especially in this day and age. You need to know what your limits are. If you become too much of a heel, it all of a sudden becomes "cool", and the fans accept you as a face like it or not.

 

To be a heel, it's a very thin line for the workers to walk down. Especailly to be able to remain a heel for an extended period of time.

 

As for Edge, his going back and forth between both the serious face and the goofy bastard does not strike me as anything of a threat to anyone. Not to mention, like I said, I despise his moveset. It's like the guy can't decide on which character he wants to play, I just hate it. Personal preference though, it's just how I feel about the guy. I haven't liked him at all since he was Christian's full time partner.

[Guest Loss]

Orton is over. The fans do boo him. We just keep getting told that he's not over, and thus we're believing it, but his push is working so far.

 

Look at Jindrak and Cade. They were babyfaces fighting Evolution for weeks last fall and couldn't get face heat to save their lives. They just hinted that they didn't like the Dudleyz and immediately got booed.

 

Ideally, your situation is right. Maintaining heel heat is sometimes hard for those who are talented, like Chris Jericho and Ric Flair, because the crowd likes them too much to truly hate them.

 

Getting heel heat, though, doesn't seem that hard. Insult the local sports team, cheat, make fun of the top babyfaces and talk too much.

[NoCalMike 0]

I'd say it is hardest to be a heel and get fans to like you anyway. Of course that was mastered by Austin, then the Rock, and to some extent Triple H during his orignal god heel run, so now it may be a little easier, but back then it was much more of a task.

[Downhome 0]

Orton is over. The fans do boo him. We just keep getting told that he's not over, and thus we're believing it, but his push is working so far.

Well I disagree. After everything that happened on RAW this past Monday night, at the end of the night when he came out he got almost NO reponse at all, it was very sad. I'm not anti-Orton or anything, but I do realize when someone gets just about no reaction at all.

 

That isn't really the point though. After everything they have given Orton to do, and others to do to him, he should be one of if not THE most over heel in wrestling. I don't see how anyone can disagree with that. But let's not turn this into an Orton thread, I was just using him as an example of it being harder to be a heel.

 

Look at Jindrak and Cade. They were babyfaces fighting Evolution for weeks last fall and couldn't get face heat to save their lives. They just hinted that they didn't like the Dudleyz and immediately got booed.

 

Of course there are exceptions to the rule. When they were faces though, they never really did anything to be over as faces in the first place. They would just come out and fight heels, and that doesn't work. It wasn't untill they actually got on the mic that they got over one way or another, so saying that it was easier for them is a mute point. They never really tried anything to be a face.

 

Ideally, your situation is right. Maintaining heel heat is sometimes hard for those who are talented, like Chris Jericho and Ric Flair, because the crowd likes them too much to truly hate them.

 

It's not just because they like them more, it's just because to remain a constant heel is VERY hard. Like I said, in this day and age, it's a very thin line between ultimate heel and cool face.

 

Getting heel heat, though, doesn't seem that hard. Insult the local sports team, cheat, make fun of the top babyfaces and talk too much.

 

Unless you are actually talented at doing that sort of thing, you still wont get over as a heel. It's one thing for a face to go out there and say something that everyone will like (a cheap pop) as I've seen just about ANYONE do that and get a face reaction. Me or you could go out there with say Hogan or something in NYC and get on the mic and go "The Yanks are going to destroy the Marlins in the World Series, we'll kick their ass!" and the fans would erupt. It would be much harder to get them to actually HATE you, to really despise you. We couldn't do it, beacuse the fans do not know us and we have no reason for them to hate us.

 

And it's much easier to remain a solid face. You can go out there week after week and do the exact same thing (Stink Face, Worm, etc...) and you'll never be a heel, you'll never have to worry about the fans all of a sudden just not liking it and thinking of you as a heel. But as a heel, you do need to worry about being cool, and about the fans turnning you face.

[Guest Coffey]

God, I hope not. Christian hasn't done dick to change an iota since those days, while Edge has taken much more significant strides. I hope to god we never see that tag team again.

I wasn't talking about them getting back together and winning tag team gold or anything. I just meant maybe they would run into each other in the back and make some humorous skits.

 

E&C are gold!

[Guest Loss]

Well I disagree. After everything that happened on RAW this past Monday night, at the end of the night when he came out he got almost NO reponse at all, it was very sad. I'm not anti-Orton or anything, but I do realize when someone gets just about no reaction at all.

I really don't know what show you were watching, because the show I watched had Orton getting great heat for beating down Foley and appearing on the Titantron. Not getting heat for his final entrance of the night, while not exactly good, is not a total indication of where he stands considering the heat he got for his previous appearances on the show.

 

That isn't really the point though. After everything they have given Orton to do, and others to do to him, he should be one of if not THE most over heel in wrestling.

 

Actually, HHH and Brock should be, but instead, Vince McMahon is the most over heel in wrestling. Orton has not won a world title or retired any legends yet. He's getting a considerable push, yes, but not an earth-shattering one.

 

But let's not turn this into an Orton thread, I was just using him as an example of it being harder to be a heel.

 

Orton sure is far more over as heel than he was as a face, that's for certain.

 

Of course there are exceptions to the rule. When they were faces though, they never really did anything to be over as faces in the first place. They would just come out and fight heels, and that doesn't work. It wasn't untill they actually got on the mic that they got over one way or another, so saying that it was easier for them is a mute point. They never really tried anything to be a face.

 

Right, which proves my point. Fans, when given neutral ground on something, would rather boo it than cheer it. This is why the unknowns who work dark matches get such shitty reactions initially. It's almost as if all wrestlers are heels until proven to be faces.

 

It's not just because they like them more, it's just because to remain a constant heel is VERY hard. Like I said, in this day and age, it's a very thin line between ultimate heel and cool face.

 

Retaining heel heat is incredibly difficult. I won't argue that. But getting it? Hell, anyone can get heel heat for one show.

 

Unless you are actually talented at doing that sort of thing, you still wont get over as a heel. It's one thing for a face to go out there and say something that everyone will like (a cheap pop) as I've seen just about ANYONE do that and get a face reaction. Me or you could go out there with say Hogan or something in NYC and get on the mic and go "The Yanks are going to destroy the Marlins in the World Series, we'll kick their ass!" and the fans would erupt. It would be much harder to get them to actually HATE you, to really despise you. We couldn't do it, beacuse the fans do not know us and we have no reason for them to hate us.

 

But do they love you or love what you're saying? I think we're arguing the same point, actually, just from different sides. Sustaining heat is difficult, whether you're a babyface or a heel. I still maintain though that getting a heel reaction is easier to do than getting a face reaction just because fans have a tendency to boo the unknown.

 

And it's much easier to remain a solid face. You can go out there week after week and do the exact same thing (Stink Face, Worm, etc...) and you'll never be a heel, you'll never have to worry about the fans all of a sudden just not liking it and thinking of you as a heel. But as a heel, you do need to worry about being cool, and about the fans turnning you face.

 

This I agree with. Again, it's the different between getting the initial reaction and maintaining heat.

[Guest Goodear]

That's never been true to me at all. Look down through the history of wrestling and look at everyone who was went from heel to face and vice versa. Any moron can go out there and do stupid shit like a Stink Face, The Worm, simply say the name of the town where ever you are, do a run in and save another face who is more over than you, and so on.

 

By the same token, how hard is it to run and plunk another face with a chair or run down the fans? You're talking about the lowest common denominators of being a heel or face, getting cheap heat ... with the actual exception of the 'stupid shit'. Rikishi and Scotty do some dumb ass crap and we all know it. But if any goober could do those things and grab fan reaction for as long as Rikishi and Scotty have (and they'vee been doing it for years now) well why aren't they? Why isn't a vannilla face like Orlando breaking into stuff during the match? Answer: because he doesn't have the charisma to pull that off. On the other hand, guys how suck like Jim Duggan managed to last loooooooooooooooong time. Why? Because its just as hard to be really liked as to be really hated, and I would say even harder... but we'll get to that.

 

It take real talent to go out there and to get the fans to hate your guts. Look at someone like Orton and everything that's been done to get him over as a heel. It simply hasn't worked like it could for other people. Look at Rocky and Austin as they were TRYING to play the role of heel at various times in their career, but the fans just wouldn't buy into it, and basicly turned them face for them.

 

Virtually no one gets genuine, 'we hate you' heat anymore since heels have been 'cool' since '96. But its easier to be a heel, develop that fan reaction and then translate it into a face then to go the other way. Cena and Rock both started as blah faces... went heel to get heat... and then flashed back to face while keeping all of the heel mannerisms virtually intact. That's why no one gets 'boos' anymore, the faces provide very little contrast. And they don't because its harder to be cool and a good guy at the same time.

 

Throughout history it's been easier to be a face than a heel.

 

Maybe through history, but now? I don't know about the modern era.

 

To be a heel, you really need to know how to piss people off, how to get the fans worked up, and how to even use your movements in the ring.

 

But no one does that anymore outside of heels like Hunter and Orton who litterally don't do anything to be 'cool'...

 

You know, honestly while writing this, I think we're actually arguing the same point from a different angle. Lets say we've basically we've got four catagories.

 

1) Strait Heels - Who are bastards through and through and have almost no redeemable characteristics in the eyes of the fans

2) Cool Heels - Who get cheers despite being evil bastards because their evil is pretty much fun to watch.

3) Cool Faces - Who are just like Cool Heels with all the cheating and sarcasm but get cheered due to managerial direction (ie JR).

4) Strait Faces - Faces who go out there and are basically just being likable without having to be 'cool' about it.

 

We're arguing over the difficulties of being either a 1 or a 4 when the real issue is that the federation and the majority of the wrestling landscape is filled with 2s and 3s. Thats our bigger issue. And while I think its maybe a tiny bit harder to be a 4 than a 1, I don't think its the overwhelming issue.

[Austin3164life 0]

Why does everyone have a problem with having one face in the company that actually acts like one with absolutely no (oddly enough) edge to it?  Not everyone in the company should be some growling serious killer.  He's funny and light and fluffy and people love him for it.  Besides, cultivating a face character is about 50% harder than a heel anyway, why take one of the few guys that is naturally likable and try to make him into something that he's not?

Exactly. It's much harder to get cheers than boos, especially in modern WWE. Good babyfaces are even more of a rarity than good heels.

All of the best babyfaces were once excellent heels. When you are that great at rousing up a crowd, people start to like you (see: Austin, Steve; Cena, John; Rock, The).

[Guest THE MIGHTY THOR]

Orton is over. The fans do boo him. We just keep getting told that he's not over, and thus we're believing it, but his push is working so far.

Orton is not over as a heel or as a wrestler, the fans still see him as a guy that hasn't done anything to deserve this push.

[Downhome 0]

I really don't know what show you were watching, because the show I watched had Orton getting great heat for beating down Foley and appearing on the Titantron. Not getting heat for his final entrance of the night, while not exactly good, is not a total indication of where he stands considering the heat he got for his previous appearances on the show.

I hate when people say that, come on now, you are better than going "I don't know what show YOU were watching".

 

I was watching the exact same thing. Of course you heard a few boos here and there when he beat up Foly and when he FIRST showed up on the big screen. Any nutsack would have recieved a negative reaction (albeit very small), after what he just did to Foley and after he was shown on the screen right after the horrible thing that Foley said about him

 

But it didn't last.

 

After time went by, and he came down at the end of the night for his match, the people just weren't responding to him. If he was worth anything at all as a heel after all of what happened, the fans would've been out of their minds with wanting to let him know just how much they hate him. Not getting heat at the end of the night is very important, it shows that the people just don't care about him over all and after time goes by. Look at the true heels in WWE, the guys you are actually over, that's what being a heel is about. If you can't get heat for doing something, and KEEP that heat, then it's not working. The fans simply don't care about him after everything is said and done.

 

Actually, HHH and Brock should be, but instead

 

If all was right in the world then yeah, they should both be the #1 heels in WWE seeing how they are both the champions. There is a reason that this isn't so though.

 

, Vince McMahon is the most over heel in wrestling.

 

Of course he is, he's the ultimate scumbucket in the world of wrestling. Just watch the WWE Monday Night Wars DVD for him to explain it himself. This guy, he'll always be one of if not THE most over heel in wrestling, after everything that he's done in the past both as an onscreen character and as his real self. From his stupid decisions that so many of us hate to the stuff that he has done to any number of faces, Austin and Bret specificly, the fans will always hate him and he'll always get some of, if not the, most heat whenever he is on.

 

Orton has not won a world title or retired any legends yet. He's getting a considerable push, yes, but not an earth-shattering one.

 

It doesn't matter if he hasn't won a world title or actually retired any legends yet. The guy has been the focus of so much, for so long by this point. Right now, he is the current IC champ, he's not only beat the shit out of Foley (a guy the fans love), but he has said some very mean things about him, he has got in the face of so many other faces, he's got a very cocky and "prety-boy" gimmick, Mick Foley said something real about the guy which is something that just about everyone hates with a passion in real life, and more.

 

With all of that he should be, like I said, one of the top heels in the federation. Yes, HHH and Brock should be over him, but he should be right up there with both of them. He's done so much, yet it's done so little for the guy.

 

To say that he shouldn't be one of the top heels, getting some of the most intenst heat, right NOW, well I don't know what to say to that. He'll get a boo here and there, but it never lasts, and you can obviously tell it by his entrance at this past RAW. The very same show you were watching.

 

Orton sure is far more over as heel than he was as a face, that's for certain.

 

Just like with Cade/Jindrak, they never really did much to push him as a face other than the "hey I'm a new guy and I'm the son of some wrestlers that most of you have never heard of, but I'm a face so cheer me!" thing.

 

They have done so much to put him over as a heel though, they've put so much time and work into it, but it's not working.

 

Had he ever done anything really to get over as a face, I assure you he could've been much more over than what he is right now.

 

Fans, when given neutral ground on something, would rather boo it than cheer it. This is why the unknowns who work dark matches get such shitty reactions initially. It's almost as if all wrestlers are heels until proven to be faces.

 

There is a difference between being over as a a heel in terms of being someone that the fans REALLY hate, and getting booed just because the people don't know who you are and don't give a shit if they see you or not.

 

The type of heel I'm talking about, is the type of heel that is actually over and for an extended periof of time. The type of heel who the fans do boo...but they love to hate him. It's much harder to get that type of reaction than to be cheered as a babyface.

 

To even compare the type of "heel" heat that people that the fans don't know, don't care about, and just don't want to see to the type of heel heat that someone like Flair gets, is not fair.

 

Retaining heel heat is incredibly difficult. I won't argue that. But getting it? Hell, anyone can get heel heat for one show.

 

I never said anyone couldn't get heel heat for one show, me or you could do that also, just because people don't want to see us in the ring.

 

It's much harder, to get the heel heat and to keep it and to remain over as a heel, than it is to be a babyface whenever you go out there. As a babyface you can go out there and do the exact same thing over and over and you'll still be over if you do it the same way, but as a heel it's simply very hard because you need to not only watch what you do to remain over as a heel and make sure you make it look real, but you need to be carefull that you don't cross the line of cool face.

 

Very few people can do that, it's one of the hardest things that the guys can do in wrestling.

 

I still maintain though that getting a heel reaction is easier to do than getting a face reaction just because fans have a tendency to boo the unknown.

 

You are bringing up the same point as above, which is tottaly invalid to what I'm talking about. Let me try to make it more clear what I'm talking about.

 

1) ANYONE can go out there and get booed or cheered on any given show, depending on what you say, do, who you do it with, etc...

 

2) Once you are an actual "face", like a Rikishi and Scotty, it's very easy to remain a face because all they really have to do is to go out there and do the same thing they do week after week, because that's what the fans in the crowd wants to see. They want to see them do their stupid dance, they want to see the Stink Fcae, and they want to see the Worm. If they do that, then everything is cool and they'll still be faces in the morning.

 

2) Once you are actually a heel though and it's how you are booked, it's much harder to keep that ball rolling. You must go out there, do something new to get the fans to hate you, and just keep up your act but keep it fresh. If you go too far with it though you could easily become the cool face, we've see that happen now and then. It's simply a much thinner line to walk than it is for the guys who play the face.

 

Again, it's the different between getting the initial reaction and maintaining heat.

 

Exactly, and Orton isn't maintaing the heat. Hell, the guy can't even maintain it throughout an entire show, much less over an extended period of time like weeks/months.

[Guest Man Of 1,004 Modes]

I'll chime in late in this argument: It's easier to be a heel instead of the good guy kissing everyones ass.

[Guest Anglesault]

So, post Mania, the entire SD! upper card will be Brock-Cena-Eddie-Show.

 

Oh my.

[Guest Coffey]

Good because I don't get Smackdown so maybe Raw will be better. It actually hasn't been terrible the last few weeks. Of course, post Mania that could all change.

 

How much longer is this brand extention shit going to last?

[JN News 0]

I'd like it if Edge went back to being the "Tortured Soul" when he returns with an extreme obsession for revenge on the person who broke his neck, and I think that person should be Orton.

[CanadianChick 0]

I'd like it if Edge went back to being the "Tortured Soul" when he returns with an extreme obsession for revenge on the person who broke his neck, and I think that person should be Orton.

Wasn't Orton out with an injury at the time? It has to make sense who it was.

[2GOLD 0]

I'd like it if Edge went back to being the "Tortured Soul" when he returns with an extreme obsession for revenge on the person who broke his neck, and I think that person should be Orton.

Wasn't Orton out with an injury at the time? It has to make sense who it was.

 

Guess the angle would work with Triple H...but why would Triple H be the one to hurt Edge? Come to think of it, who was Edge feuding with at the time of his injury?

[CanadianChick 0]

Well, in reference to who Edge was feuding with, the only people who would make sense are Benjamin, Haas, and Angle.

[Guest Anglesault]

I'd like it if Edge went back to being the "Tortured Soul" when he returns with an extreme obsession for revenge on the person who broke his neck, and I think that person should be Orton.

Wasn't Orton out with an injury at the time? It has to make sense who it was.

No, he was still around for NWO.

 

Don't worry, Chick, they can still do an Orton/Edge.

[JN News 0]

I'd like it if Edge went back to being the "Tortured Soul" when he returns with an extreme obsession for revenge on the person who broke his neck, and I think that person should be Orton.

Wasn't Orton out with an injury at the time? It has to make sense who it was.

It would make perfect sense (I guess) if Orton RKO'ed Edge backstage at NWO, last year, and that broke Edge's neck.