Meaningless mat wrestling

[Your Paragon of Virtue 0]

I haven't watched wrestling in ages, since I've been fully into MMA at this point (not that you can't watch both, but wrestling has seemed to be so bad at this point that I don't bother). I watched WMXX and I saw a show, while bad, was great in an emotional sense. Probably just saying that because of the way the last two matches went, but whatever. My point is that those matches while great in a "My favourite wrestler wins the big one kind of way" the matches themselves weren't very good.

 

I don't want to get into a discussion over that, because there are so many other threads dedicated to it. But my question; is anyone else sick and tired of the stupid mat wrestling at the beginning that goes nowhere and leads to nothing? Those sequences don't build on anything, don't lead to anything, and only serve to show people that "Hey, it's a 'technical' match". It's meaningless, does nothing, and serves no purpose. Am I the only one who sees this? It is fairly annoying and boring., and I'm waiting for them to actually work. Specifically I'm talking about the Eddie-Angle match.

 

The meaningless mat wrestling stuff didn't work me for me in those old NJPW Juniour (CANADIAN BAYBEE GOOO BENWAHHH~!) matches, and they don't work now. I expect to come and tell me to shutup and watch but I'm hoping for some agreement.

[Guest Xstasy]

I gree. And I take it one step further.

 

For example, the dumbasses that come out and give everyone their finisher at the end of a promo. Yet during the match, they can't seem to ever hit their finisher until the "end of the match." It's annoying. Normal wrestling moves aren't worth fearing anymore. Unless, of course, you "get the tights," or "use the ropes." Which I liked at first, but now its just overplayed.

 

I long for the day when people can actually lose to regular old moves. And when finishers aren't just moves that you do, you actually have to build up to them, or something. Just so you really never know if a near-fall will be the end or... a near-fall. Err... I hope that came out right.

[Guest Brian]

I agree to some extent, but I think some people just see mat wrestling as that and fail to grasp that it can't have much deeper meaning in establishing the story and pace of a match.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

I think Eddie/Angle did a good job with it last night; it fit into the "kurt angle trying to control eddie guerrero/slow down the pace" story and they transitioned out of it pretty well (germans/vertical) where it wasn't a very rough turn around into the "regular" wrestling. Those are two of the main problems with meaningless mat wrestling; it doesn't "fit" into the match and the wrestlers don't know how to work out of it. Because, in theory, if the match starts as mat wrestling it should _all_ be mat wrestling.

[Your Paragon of Virtue 0]

I gree. And I take it one step further.

 

For example, the dumbasses that come out and give everyone their finisher at the end of a promo. Yet during the match, they can't seem to ever hit their finisher until the "end of the match." It's annoying. Normal wrestling moves aren't worth fearing anymore. Unless, of course, you "get the tights," or "use the ropes." Which I liked at first, but now its just overplayed.

 

I long for the day when people can actually lose to regular old moves. And when finishers aren't just moves that you do, you actually have to build up to them, or something. Just so you really never know if a near-fall will be the end or... a near-fall. Err... I hope that came out right.

Thing is, finishers aren't credible anymore due to all the "SURPRISE I KICKED OUT" endings. Angle's ankle lock is very lame, and is only a finisher when he's fighting someone SIGNIFICANTLY lower on the card than he. In other words, it works maybe ten percent of the time with guys at the main event level.

 

The mat wrestling thing is annoying, because instead of giving a great match they'll just wrestle on the mat for five minutes at the beginning and people will be like OMG GREAT MATCH THEYRE GOING OLD SCHOOL~!

[Guest Markingout]

I haven't watched wrestling in ages, since I've been fully into MMA at this point (not that you can't watch both, but wrestling has seemed to be so bad at this point that I don't bother). I watched WMXX and I saw a show, while bad, was great in an emotional sense. Probably just saying that because of the way the last two matches went, but whatever. My point is that those matches while great in a "My favourite wrestler wins the big one kind of way" the matches themselves weren't very good.

 

I don't want to get into a discussion over that, because there are so many other threads dedicated to it. But my question; is anyone else sick and tired of the stupid mat wrestling at the beginning that goes nowhere and leads to nothing? Those sequences don't build on anything, don't lead to anything, and only serve to show people that "Hey, it's a 'technical' match". It's meaningless, does nothing, and serves no purpose. Am I the only one who sees this? It is fairly annoying and boring., and I'm waiting for them to actually work. Specifically I'm talking about the Eddie-Angle match.

 

The meaningless mat wrestling stuff didn't work me for me in those old NJPW Juniour (CANADIAN BAYBEE GOOO BENWAHHH~!) matches, and they don't work now. I expect to come and tell me to shutup and watch but I'm hoping for some agreement.

With the right selling mat wrestling the beginning could be used correctly. Also from a story telling standpoint it could be sort of like a feeling out process. For the most part I say I agree with you. Most of the guys in the indy circuit do it to be fancy. That aggravates me, but if you watch an American Dragon match or Chris Daniels match practically all of it comes back in the later part of the match.

[Your Paragon of Virtue 0]

I haven't watched wrestling in ages, since I've been fully into MMA at this point (not that you can't watch both, but wrestling has seemed to be so bad at this point that I don't bother). I watched WMXX and I saw a show, while bad, was great in an emotional sense. Probably just saying that because of the way the last two matches went, but whatever. My point is that those matches while great in a "My favourite wrestler wins the big one kind of way" the matches themselves weren't very good.

 

I don't want to get into a discussion over that, because there are so many other threads dedicated to it. But my question; is anyone else sick and tired of the stupid mat wrestling at the beginning that goes nowhere and leads to nothing? Those sequences don't build on anything, don't lead to anything, and only serve to show people that "Hey, it's a 'technical' match". It's meaningless, does nothing, and serves no purpose. Am I the only one who sees this? It is fairly annoying and boring., and I'm waiting for them to actually work. Specifically I'm talking about the Eddie-Angle match.

 

The meaningless mat wrestling stuff didn't work me for me in those old NJPW Juniour (CANADIAN BAYBEE GOOO BENWAHHH~!) matches, and they don't work now. I expect to come and tell me to shutup and watch but I'm hoping for some agreement.

With the right selling mat wrestling the beginning could be used correctly. Also from a story telling standpoint it could be sort of like a feeling out process. For the most part I say I agree with you. Most of the guys in the indy circuit do it to be fancy. That aggravates me, but if you watch an American Dragon match or Chris Daniels match practically all of it comes back in the later part of the match.

Oh I know it can be useful, I'm just saying that these days it's mostly style over substance, which is pretty ass backwards. It's wasted, and pointless, and is just used as filler.

 

Like I said, I haven't watched wrestling regularly in ages, let alone felt the motivation to go out and watch some indies stuff.

[syxx2001 0]

I agree as well, which is why I thought the RR mathc with Angle and Benoit wasn't as good as everyone made it out to be. All they did was roll around reversing holds and Angle gets up and throws 5 germans and THEN sells his arm or neck. WTF? Either go the whole match working the mat (Collier and Danielson or something) or don't do it at all. Thats why I hate WWE's mat wrestling cause they toss and turn then go at a fast pace, making the tossing and turning irrelevant, but stupid ass smarks and marks can't see past it because Benoit is doing it. But let RVD mat wrestle someone and then forget about it later in the match and all hell will break loose. If you are gonna mat wrestle, wrestle like American Dragon. Same with the cruiserweights. If you are a cruiser, you are a spot machine, plain and simple. Bump for Christ's sake. Bump like Red, do something stupid. Springboard superkicks aren't cool anymore.

[Guest Brian]

I still haven't seen that match (just never got around to it), but those matches generally degenerated. WrestleMania was good with the mat stuff, but after that you could tell that Angle really wanted to show off what he could do. And I really can't blame him.

 

I don't feel people should be hemned into categories. I know certain guys can follow on the mat and other can lead. I know Mysterio and Knoble can go on the mat despite being cruiserweights. Rather than inhibit what they can do, let them flesh out their matches using all their skill. If you can build a matche off the ground, build a solid story, and reference it, you can do whatever the fuck you want after that. Personally, I've always imagined a dream match being able to use every little bit, from brawling to high-flying to mat, managing to build to each section with little points of reference and transition built off things established early on.

[The Metal Maniac 0]

I think starting a match with mat wrestling serves a great purpose, especially in Japanese Juniour's style.

 

It would make no sense for two guys to go out and suddenly be powerbombing/suplexing/flying all over the place. I think that the mat wrestling gives a good, logical way for the match to start (what else are they gonna do at the start of the match?) and one can easily assume that after they've worn each other down, it's time to bust out the big moves.

 

You can't plancha someone unless they have a reason to be tired/worn out. I think mat wrestling at the start of a match is a great way to set that up later. Again, you could argue that there's other stuff they could do, but really, I think mat wrestling is the most logical and believable way to start a match.

 

And yeah, it rarely ever lasts long into the match, but then again, most wrestlers use moves that can't be done while rolling around on the mat, so they've got to get to a vertical base before they can hit any "big"moves.

[Michrome 0]

It all depends. Last night's matwork was rendered meaningless by Eddy and Angle going to a dumbed down WWE finisherville ending sequence to the match that killed my enjoyment of it. If you replace the Ankle lock with more rib-based moves at the end, like gutbusters, powerslams, superplexes, and an Angle slam for the nearfall, I think the match woulda been much better. Oh, and it woulda been nice for Eddy to sell the ribs on his frog splash. Omigod I ripped Eddy Guerrero.

[Your Paragon of Virtue 0]

I think starting a match with mat wrestling serves a great purpose, especially in Japanese Juniour's style.

 

It would make no sense for two guys to go out and suddenly be powerbombing/suplexing/flying all over the place. I think that the mat wrestling gives a good, logical way for the match to start (what else are they gonna do at the start of the match?) and one can easily assume that after they've worn each other down, it's time to bust out the big moves.

 

You can't plancha someone unless they have a reason to be tired/worn out. I think mat wrestling at the start of a match is a great way to set that up later. Again, you could argue that there's other stuff they could do, but really, I think mat wrestling is the most logical and believable way to start a match.

 

And yeah, it rarely ever lasts long into the match, but then again, most wrestlers use moves that can't be done while rolling around on the mat, so they've got to get to a vertical base before they can hit any "big"moves.

Again, missing the point; not saying not to do mat wrestling, but if you're going to do it make it mean something. They can have the greatest exchange ever and if they don't build on it it doesn't mean shit. Unfortunately, 99.9% of all WWF matches start off that way which is the problem.

[The Metal Maniac 0]

but if you're going to do it make it mean something.

 

Did I not explain well enough that it does mean something?

 

It's the inital wear-down to set up for the big moves later on.

 

And besides, why does *everything* have to mean something in wrestling? Can't they just be wrestling?

 

I dunno, I just hate the logic that if it doesn't lead right into the finish, it's pointless.

[Guest Brian]

I also don't like that logic because everything isn't so cut and dry. But in some cases, the mat work is just there so the guys can show off. This is pretty much embodied by the later Benoit/Angle matches of 2001, where Angle got too fancy (and he was schooling Benoit at points) and both guys didn't really work towards what that Mania match did.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

This could easily turn into "Wrestling 101"... unfortunately, "wrestling 101" is a fucking long write so all I will say is that the WWE sacrifices realism and story for formula. It's more important, to them, to have the crowd popping and interested than the match being good. Unfortunately, they don't have enough faith in their fans' appreciation for realism and story or enough faith in their wrestlers to deliver it; so they take the "safe" route and work the heat spots and exchange finishes and near falls.

[Dace59 0]

If you're going to spend five or so minutes on the mat trading the fancist armbars and armlock counters, at least sell them when you get up.

 

You dont have to sell it all match long either, as long as you can show it wearing off. Shake out the arm less and less after next, as long as it's not worked on.

 

I think writing wrestling has made me aware as much as I can write pretty and fnacy chain wrestling, it doesn't help me win if it does nothing.

[Kardo 0]

NJPW juniors and their pointless mat work is so very annoying in matches. If you are going to win with a roll up sequence etc.. show that the wrestlers involved are trying to get a quick victory.

 

If someone is trying to win with a three count with their finisher build to it.

 

Oh and stop the hand dropping for 2/comeback spot. It just annoys me no end.

[Guest wildpegasus]

Very tired right now but I just wanted to make a fast comment which I don't think has been touched on here yet. Even the most "pointless" matwrestling that tends to start off matches serves a purpose. It allows the big moves later on to be more exciting. If you just do big moves the whole match they tend to not seem to be as important. Mat wrestling before turning into big moves during a match makes the big moves more climatic at the end. It's the same reason why you'll never really see a 2 hour fight movie scene even in a fighting flick.

[Michrome 0]

A lot of matwork in NJ Juniors has a lot to do with wearing down your opponent before you can hit the big moves. In the beginning, they'd be fast enough to avoid any big spot or move, but once worn down, they'll be susceptible.

 

And what WP said.

[Dangerous K89 0]

I didn't really like how Angle was working on Eddie's mid-section for most of the match, then decides at the end to work Eddie's ankle in the ankle lock. Although, I did like Eddie acting like Angle's work on his ankle was really working, then got the clever win.

 

Ok, so maybe the ankle thing works with Eddie acting like it didn't effect him after the match and ultimately using Angle's mistake in using the ankle lock to his advantage for the clever pin. Although, it makes Angle look dumb that he worked Eddie's mid-section the entire match then tried to make him to the ankle lock. He's an Olympic Gold Medalist, he's not dumb, damnit!

[Michrome 0]

Yep, they totally abandoned everything they built to and went into finisherville.

[Guest Nater]

Opening the match with move/countermove or a lockup/twist/reversal has been pretty standard. Resorting to punching or kicking to weaken the opponent is just that, a lowblow effort.

 

Perhaps every match should be a slobberknocker, and they should change the show to a pit fighting tournament with giant steel cages that have spikes on the ceiling and various weapons hanging from them. To make the match intense, they could also put the fighters on bungee straps and fill the ring with sand. Of course, this would make it all too hard to referee so the tourney could be cast by having the audience cheering and jeering on the cage itself! Well, there would be that occassional slip where a fan gets stabbed, but who cares!

Only rule: 2 man enter, 1 man leave.

 

It's a shame that American standards for acceptable violence are so dictated by a prude government.

[humongous2002 0]

Just like everything else mat wrestling has a place in pro-wrestling, but WWE is just overdoing it. The restholds bored the shit out of me, and like somebody else pointed out , regular moves like german suplexes or ddts can't score a pin anymore. What pisses me off is that WWE is expecting everybody to wrestle the same freaking way, and in my opinion i don't expect an RVD or a Paul London or Rey to wrestle like a Benoit or an HBK, they all have different styles and that's what makes pro-wrestling special.I just wish that they should let the wrestlers have more freedom in their matches.

[Guest Deviant]

Say, am I the only one that remembers Kurt wearing down the chest and back, which was later used effectively as a shift in momentum with the sudden Frog Splash missing. That splash also emphasised why Angle was trying to keep him down, as hitting it would have meant the end. There was wearing down, a keep on the mat mentality and a little bit of body part psych. What more do you want?

[Dace59 0]

While mat work doesn't have to mean the same thing in every match, and not every match is going to be great, the work has to be consistant with the match.

 

If you're going to use mat work to slow someone down/wear them down for big spots, but aren't doing any real body working, stay away from limb psych spots. That way, there is no limb psych to sell, and the focus is purply wear down.

 

OR if you have two guys in a series of matches progressively building up counters and new spots in the series. You've had some start with mat work, move away from it in other matches then suddenly move back in latter matches as surprise. With all the moves focusing on being take downs/quick wins and lots of reversals without being anything that's working a body part or general wearing down.

 

If mat work is trying to do everything at once and not getting very deep, it's going to look bad.

 

You can make it have a meaning, without it straying into other areas. But if you don't need it, there are other ways to start up.

[Your Paragon of Virtue 0]

but if you're going to do it make it mean something.

 

Did I not explain well enough that it does mean something?

 

It's the inital wear-down to set up for the big moves later on.

 

And besides, why does *everything* have to mean something in wrestling? Can't they just be wrestling?

 

I dunno, I just hate the logic that if it doesn't lead right into the finish, it's pointless.

It doesn't have to work into the finish, but factor it into the story. There are so many different ways that you can use it, and it wasn't used at all yesterday, much like every other WWF match. Like someone else said, WWF doesn't care about the story which gives us much wasted potential.

 

They will always be the WWF to me.

[AndrewTS 0]

Meaningless mat wrestling > "let's work this chinlock for two minutes"

 

Although I admit it is a bit of a problem, and it hurt my enjoyment of WMXX's wrestling a little bit..

 

It's a shame that American standards for acceptable violence are so dictated by a prude government.

 

You DO realize that, in respect to violence, America's one of the least prudish societies, right? It's mainly nudity that we're prudish about.

[Coffin Surfer 0]

I can't comment on WWE matches, but I will comment on the New Japan stuff. For starters, in alot of the junior matches regarded as classics the mat work did end up playing a big role in the match, went somewhere, or it at least had some "meaning", and at times there are even junior matches with no real mat work.

 

In general, the mat work in New Japan was all about timing. For the most part, it's a fool proof way to build a match. As WP suggested, it makes the bombs away portion more important, more exciting..etc. This doesn't just apply to juniors, it's the same basic match building principles that ties together almost all pro style matches. Unless it's a sprint or a spot fest, most well structured matches do to tend to start of slow and build their way up.

 

It's not like the mat work is a total boring waste of time either. In alot of the better matches, the mat work is fast tends to go back and forth, and has good usage of "mat high spots" if you will. And as I already mentioned, does tend to have meaning. However, yes there are matches where the mat work is boring, and does tend to go nowhere.

[Coffin Surfer 0]

I The meaningless mat wrestling stuff didn't work me for me in those old NJPW Juniour (CANADIAN BAYBEE GOOO BENWAHHH~!) matches, and they don't work now. I expect to come and tell me to shutup and watch but I'm hoping for some agreement.

I just watched Super J Cup 94 finals which has Sasuke vs. this Goo Benwah character, and I only counted one real mat wrestling sequence(Sasuke reverses a Figure Four Sleeper to a Surfboard than a Bow and Arrow Lock). It's not really meaningless either since it's a transition spot.

[King Cucaracha 0]

The chain wrestling at the beginning of the match is fine when it's Angle, what with him being 'Mr Olympic'. You can sell it as Angle trying to show up his opponent.

 

I agree with mat wrestling, rest holds and working over body parts needs to be sold better. But a big part of that lies in the commentators corner. If Angle works over the ribs and Eddie misses a frog splash, you're hoping Cole or Tazz picks up on it.

 

Usually the SD commentators are decent enough on that area. It's JR and King that worry me, because even when they call matches instead of talking about Stone Cold BAH GAWD Austin or puppies and granny panties, they don't pick up on the little things in matches that when mentioned make matches better in hindsight.