Catholic Church recommending that pro-choice

[Guest Cerebus]

There should be a flame-free way to discuss this, if we all show a bit of restraint.

 

The Catholic Church is recommending that pro-choice politicians be refused communion. To you non-Catholics, this is basically an excommunication. In any case, the decision ultimately lies with John Kerry's bishop. As I understand it, the bishop of New England has ruled that pro-choice politicians should simply not ask for communion as their views are not in communion with those of the universal church. Nevertheless, John Kerry presented himself for communion on Easter.

 

Kerry's own view is that while abortion is wrong, he believes that his religious and moral opinions should be segregated from his obligations as a citizen and leader of a secular state with an explicit separation of church and state.

 

I think this position is reasonable up to a point. How is a good Catholic politician who is also obliged to uphold the laws of land supposed to behave? Should he oppose abortion? Should he simply make no statements about abortion at all? Should he observe the advice of his bishopric and refrain from presenting himself for communion?

 

It's an interesting moral dilemma, and I think we can discuss it if we 1) accept that the Catholic Church has legitimate reasons for it's opposition to abortion and 2) accept that John Kerry's beliefs are exactly what he says they are. This will avoid both rehashing the abortion debate and trashing Kerry's character.

 

So what should Kerry do?

 

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry's campaign said Friday that religion should not be an issue in U.S. politics after a top Vatican official said Catholic politicians who support abortion rights should be denied communion.

 

Cardinal Francis Arinze would not comment specifically about Kerry, who is Catholic and supports abortion rights. But when asked in general about "unambiguously pro-abortion'' Catholic politicians, Arinze said such a politician "is not fit'' to receive communion.

 

Kerry spokesman David Wade would not respond directly to Arinze, but he reiterated Kerry's position on the separation of church and state that "helped make religious affiliation a nonissue in American politics.''

 

"The decisions he will make as president will be guided by his obligation to all the people of our country and to the Constitution of the United States,'' Wade said in the statement. "Every American -- whether they be Jewish, Catholic, Protestant or any other faith -- must believe their president is representing them.''

 

Kerry scheduled a rally Friday with leaders of women's groups to compare his stand on abortion with what he says are President Bush's extreme anti-abortion positions.

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

This is one of the reasons I'm glad I'm not Catholic. Please don't hold this against all Christians, just because the Catholics do something stupid.

[chaosrage 0]

I think it's funny because the bible doesn't even have a problem with abortion. Unless I missed something somewhere.

 

According to Ex. 21:22-25, an unborn baby isn't a human life.

[Guest wrestlingbs]

Someone should tell the Vatican that this kind of thing doesn't work anymore? Hell, it didn't even work in the past. Henry VIII wanted a divorce, the Pope said no, so he simply created his own church. German Kings were excommunicated for supporting Martin Luther, and that still didn't stop them.

[Your Paragon of Virtue 0]

This is one of the reasons I'm glad I'm not Catholic. Please don't hold this against all Christians, just because the Catholics do something stupid.

So non-Catholic Christians are better?

 

For the most part, conservative Catholics are considered WAAY Liberal by Non-Catholic Christians. Things like allowing non-Christians into heaven only prove that point.

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

So non-Catholic Christians are better?

 

I'm Anglican. Catholics are conservative compared to us. I'm not talking about Baptists.

[Guest Cerebus]

I think it's funny because the bible doesn't even have a problem with abortion. Unless I missed something somewhere.

 

According to Ex. 21:22-25, an unborn baby isn't a human life.

You mean:

 

Exodus 21:22 And if men fight and hit a pregnant woman and her child is born prematurely, but there is no serious injury, he will surely be punished in accordance with what the woman’s husband will put on him, and he will pay what the court decides. 21:23 But if there is serious injury, then you will give a life for a life, 21:24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 21:25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.

 

Sorry, I'd say it's the opposite.

[Your Paragon of Virtue 0]

So non-Catholic Christians are better?

 

I'm Anglican. Catholics are conservative compared to us. I'm not talking about Baptists.

Which one's Anglican? There are so many, is that the one that Henry VIII started because he wanted to divorce a wife or something?

[Guest wrestlingbs]

So non-Catholic Christians are better?

 

I'm Anglican. Catholics are conservative compared to us. I'm not talking about Baptists.

Which one's Anglican? There are so many, is that the one that Henry VIII started because he wanted to divorce a wife or something?

Bingo. Although I think technically Henry said it was a new branch of the Catholic Church.

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

So non-Catholic Christians are better?

 

I'm Anglican. Catholics are conservative compared to us. I'm not talking about Baptists.

Which one's Anglican? There are so many, is that the one that Henry VIII started because he wanted to divorce a wife or something?

Bingo. Although I think technically Henry said it was a new branch of the Catholic Church.

Most of the Church structure is based off of the Catholic model with the royal sovereign (Queen Elizabeth II in this case) at its head instead of the Pope. We are far more liberal when it comes to actual philosophy though, with a lot less attention to strict rules like the Ten Commandments, although they are still there. The Church does still believe in transubstantiation though. I think we are the only Protestant religion that practices it, but I can't be certain.

[Highland 0]

If he can actually successfully pull off separating his personal religious views from his political decisions he'll already be doing better than the current president.

[chaosrage 0]

You mean:

 

Exodus 21:22 And if men fight and hit a pregnant woman and her child is born prematurely, but there is no serious injury, he will surely be punished in accordance with what the woman’s husband will put on him, and he will pay what the court decides. 21:23 But if there is serious injury, then you will give a life for a life, 21:24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 21:25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.

 

Sorry, I'd say it's the opposite.

What bible are you reading?

 

From the King James version:

21:22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

21:23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,

21:24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,

21:25 Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

 

http://www.genesis.net.au/~bible/kjv/exodus/

http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Exd/Exd021.html#22

[Guest Cerebus]

If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.[/b]

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

I'm a Catholic and I don't agree with this AT ALL. It's spiritual blackmail.

[Guest Cerebus]

I don't because the taking of communion implies an understanding and acceptance of Church teachings and beliefs. I know the Catholic church opposes communion during Catholic services for non-Catholics, because many other faiths view Communion as symbolic, rather than actually taking God's flesh and blood. This can seem unwelcoming to non-Catholics, but performing a ritual without believing it lacks a certain honesty.

 

The issue with Kerry is similar. If the taking of Communion implies an understanding and belief in Church teachings, and Kerry opposes Church teachings, then there is a sense in which Kerry is being dishonest to the service itself.

 

If Kerry believes himself to be living in accordance with Church teachings as best he is able, however, then there are no grounds to refuse him Communion. No one is perfect. It is really Kerry's choice, however, to decide how well he follows Church teachings.

[chaosrage 0]

If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.[/b]

Yes, punished, but not killed because it's not taking a life.

[CanadianChick 0]

This is awful. No wonder as I get older, I'm starting to question the Catholic Church.

[MrRant 0]

They can do it if they want. Luckily if someone doesn't like it they can switch denominations.

[Guest Brian]

Or they can stop believing in an invisible man that sees all and knows all yet gave people free will, and manages to incarnate himself into three different forms?

[chaosrage 0]

And here it begins. 15 pages by Sunday.

[Guest Cerebus]

1) accept that the Catholic Church has legitimate reasons for it's opposition to abortion

 

Unsurprisingly, nobody read this part. Can't say I'm surprised, but hey I tried.

[kkktookmybabyaway 0]

Now will the Priests allow Kerry to attend the "Alter Boy Summer Camp" with them? That's the big question...

[Guest cobainwasmurdered]

Or they can stop believing in an invisible man that sees all and knows all yet gave people free will, and manages to incarnate himself into three different forms?

you rule Brian. I love it when people bring that up.

 

I'll stick to filling my religion out as "Jedi" on all questionaires thank you very much.

[Guest MikeSC]

I'm a Catholic and I don't agree with this AT ALL. It's spiritual blackmail.

While I can appreciate your view here, the Catholic Church should not simply change its views to keep with the times. There are fundamental right and wrong.

 

The Church does not approve of abortion. If Kerry disagrees with their stance, then they do have the right to excommunicate him.

 

He also has the right to choose another religion.

-=Mike

[Guest MikeSC]

Or they can stop believing in an invisible man that sees all and knows all yet gave people free will, and manages to incarnate himself into three different forms?

you rule Brian. I love it when people bring that up.

 

I'll stick to filling my religion out as "Jedi" on all questionaires thank you very much.

I love that degrading Christians is just peachy --- but no other group gets similar treatment.

-=Mike

...Heck, I get heat for saying that TERRORISTS are sub-human around here...

[2GOLD 0]

This is awful. No wonder as I get older, I'm starting to question the Catholic Church.

 

I stopped listening to these assholes at the age of 16 when they told me my brother was burning in hell.

 

As far as I'm concerned, getting this done to you would be a blessing in disguise. Gives you a chance to get away from these loons without feeling like you left the church.

 

You didn't screw the church. The church screwed the church.

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

Or they can stop believing in an invisible man that sees all and knows all yet gave people free will, and manages to incarnate himself into three different forms?

Its called faith. If God came down here to say 'hi' to everyone, it would kind of defeat the purpose.

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

I'm a Catholic and I don't agree with this AT ALL. It's spiritual blackmail.

While I can appreciate your view here, the Catholic Church should not simply change its views to keep with the times. There are fundamental right and wrong.

 

The Church does not approve of abortion. If Kerry disagrees with their stance, then they do have the right to excommunicate him.

 

He also has the right to choose another religion.

-=Mike

I'm not thinking about abortion. I'm thinking about the precedent this sets for future issues. Will the Catholic Church use this with ANY issue they feel strongly about? Hell, will this stop people from voting for Catholic politicians?

[snuffbox 0]

The Catholic Church Nutshell -

 

Abortion/Womens rights = Bad

 

Child Rape = Good

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

Or they can stop believing in an invisible man that sees all and knows all yet gave people free will, and manages to incarnate himself into three different forms?

you rule Brian. I love it when people bring that up.

 

I'll stick to filling my religion out as "Jedi" on all questionaires thank you very much.

I love that degrading Christians is just peachy --- but no other group gets similar treatment.

-=Mike

...Heck, I get heat for saying that TERRORISTS are sub-human around here...

I wouldn't say no other group. What about the Jews? They get it even worse than the Christians do.