Comments of Lockdown...

[Coffin Surfer 0]

For people complaining about the "headlock" stuff.

 

I'm sorry I thought this was the match commenting thread, god forbid we comment on the show. This shouldn't turn into an argument though, and why Kibs wants to shove words into my mouth and suggestively stereotype me is a mystery to me.

 

Anyway:

 

"The fact was that squashes don't win unless they're facing no-shows in the SWF, so he had to give Cortez some respect and some offence. "

 

Your totally missing the point. I'm saying that it would have been better if Cortez controlled early instead of Kibs. Kibs controlling the early portion makes it more of a squash than that would, which is the point of the underdog using the early control offense. Both guys still get to look strong! Instead of one guy dominately hanging on a headlock of the underdog you get the underdog surprisingly controlling the upper carder even though he can only do it with a basic move it's still an accomplishment.

 

Kibs has given an explanation for using the spot, I'm just pointing out that he's really using an underdog sequence. Sure he gave his own meaning to it, but it's not quite as effective as the original/real meaning of the sequence.

[Guest Goodear]

I'm not sure what you mean here, I can guess though. For a while I tried to establish some injuries, but I didn't want to limit other people's offense by forcing them to conform, so now I just leave it up to them to do what they want when on offense.

 

I'm not so much talking about injuries as I am about intrinsic flaws in the personality of the character. For instance like you worked with John for this match where he had an advantage but didn't go for it with everything to put you away because he's an arrogant bastard. Tom Flesher I don't think could win a brawl if you spotted him a pair of brass knuckles. Ground Wildchild and he's in deep shit. I just see Danny as a tad too much of a paragon where he doesn't have an area where he would be in 'deep shit' if a match goes in that direction. Thats basically what I was going for...

 

"I personally would never have Danny kip up again... it doesn't fit the way the character has felt in the past. " ?

 

Basically I think about Danny I think of a stern, no frills wrestling machine. I see kip up and think Shawn Michaels. I don't think I could come up with two more diametrically opposed characters. Sure, other people kip up all the time besides Michaels, but it feels almost too showy for what I think of when I think Danny. It doesn't feel right.

 

I would have liked to have used a bigger more epic comeback, but the last 2000 words or so was last minute rushed in addition to the match coming close to going over word limits. So I would agree that it could been better.

 

Fair enough, happens to everyone.

[Coffin Surfer 0]

"I just see Danny as a tad too much of a paragon where he doesn't have an area where he would be in 'deep shit' if a match goes in that direction. Thats basically what I was going for..."

 

He's well rounded but he's not the best at everything. Williams isn't the athletic or speed equal of a Wildchild or most cruiserweights. He isn't gonna outwrestle Flesher, Francis, and it wouldn't be a surprise if Ejiro was to outwrestle him(I had him do that in one of our last couple of matches). He's not gonna dominate the Thugg in a power match. Like I said, it's up to the opposition.

 

"Basically I think about Danny I think of a stern, no frills wrestling machine. I see kip up and think Shawn Michaels. I don't think I could come up with two more diametrically opposed characters. "

 

Williams has always been modeled after the Dynamite Kid, who used the kip up after his Missile Dropkick. Besides Williams hasn't been that stern recently, didn't you read the match against Matthews?

[Guest Suicide King]

Sigh.

[Ace309 0]

Can I just point out to the people who seem angry, offended or somehow hurt over the fact that this discussion is going on that this is what writing about wrestling is for a large segment of the active writers? I'd say that a minority, but a significant one, is as interested or more interested in the actual in-ring work than the backstage development of a character, and that's what's manifesting itself right now.

 

Do I like the tone the discussion's taken? No, which is why I made my case and left it there. Still, christ! We're discussing the relative merits of something in one of the matches! Yes, there's a bit more venom than I think is necessary, but I'd be thrilled with a whole fed of people who put thought into their matches and people who are willing to call them on it if for whatever reason it doesn't make sense. (I understand the point Danny's making; I just don't think it applies here.)

 

Dismay over a 1000-word headlock? It's not like Kibs just wrote "The headlock is still on" 200 times. He developed what was, in my opinion, an interesting dynamic between the two wrestlers by using that headlock and the wrestling surrounding Cortez trying to escape it.

 

Danny's right on. We're commenting on the show. When it seems that nine times out of ten no one reads enough of the show to comment, we should be so lucky to have this sort of discussion every week.

[muzz 0]

Tom, that post went way too long. I was deeply angry, offended, and hurt by it.

[Ace309 0]

*offers Muzz 72 virgins in contrition*

[Mr. S£im Citrus 0]

I think that the discussion, for the most part, is good, as I've often been interested in what the writers were thinking about when they wrote a match... aside from the borderline "jabs," the discussion has been enlightening, and only broke down for me when it started to look like Danny was arguing with Kibs about what Kibs was thinking when he wrote his match; it almost looked like this:

 

Danny: "That spot reminded me of Match X. Kibs must have been thinking A when he wrote that spot."

 

Kibs: "Uhh, no. I actually was thinking B when I wrote it..."

 

Danny: "Liar!"

 

 

... Or, maybe I read the entire exchange completely wrong, in which case, I apologize to both parties for misrepresenting them...

[Guest Goodear]

Williams has always been modeled after the Dynamite Kid, who used the kip up after his Missile Dropkick. Besides Williams hasn't been that stern recently, didn't you read the match against Matthews?

 

Huh, I always got more of a Kawada flavor out of him, which is probably why the kip up stood out so much for me as 'WOAH'. Interesting, if I ever have another match with Danny, it'll be interesting to see how that take allows for some writing changes on my part. Sadly, thats how I generally try to relate to most people out here with some minor variations when I should be writing the characters as written. Ah well, my personal failings on display

[Mr. S£im Citrus 0]

You try to write everybody like Kawada?

[Coffin Surfer 0]

Danny: "That spot reminded me of Match X. Kibs must have been thinking A when he wrote that spot."

 

Kibs: "Uhh, no. I actually was thinking B when I wrote it..."

 

Danny: "Liar!"

Uh no, that's not what I'm saying at all. I understand his intentions perfectly, I'm not arguing what his intentions are. I'm just pointing out that the actual wrestling doesn't effectively display his intentions as well as they could have. Sometimes just intending something isn't enough.

 

If for whatever reason my posts have a foul tone I apologize, though I would be baffled as to why one would think that. When I was writing the comments, I didn't think I would offend Kibs. People normally like criticism, I will stay clear of your matches from now on.

[Coffin Surfer 0]

Sigh.

bitch, bitch, bitch.

 

Your constant nagging about the old days is almost as bad as my constant nagging about losing matches.

[Mr. S£im Citrus 0]

Who, me?

 

I'm retired, Danny; I have no matches to steer clear of... and again, I apologize for misrepresenting you.

[Coffin Surfer 0]

Who, me?

 

I'm retired, Danny; I have no matches to steer clear of... and again, I apologize for misrepresenting you.

Oh no, the last two sentences were directed towards Kibs.

 

Sorry, I'm a bad writer afterall.

[HollywoodSpikeJenkins 0]

Basically, Danny is saying that Kibs could of wrote something different and still have the same purpose.

 

 

And Kibs is saying for Danny to go fuck himself.

 

 

 

I'm pretty sure that's it.

[Guest Fire and Knives]

When I was writing the comments, I didn't think I would offend Kibs.  People normally like criticism, I will stay clear of your matches from now on.

Oh, I'm not offended - I'm normally this abrasive. I'm having a great deal of fun with the discussion as it is. Don't mind me being a dick, it's all sport to me and it happens quite often.

 

Since this has gotten dragged out as long as it has, I suppose I'll chip in once again. I completely understand your point regarding the appearance of the headlock in terms of the Kobashi/Honda example, but I do think you're underestimating the impact perception has in this particular situation. To avoid any further claims of bullshit, I'll go ahead and elaborate the point this time instead of baiting you and generally being a really big asshole.

 

In the context of an AJPW or NJPW match, a long headlock segment does make the attacker appear as an underdog, and if your tastes are primarily skewed towards All Japan and New Japan, you can make a reasonable case against the headlock I wrote. If you watch a lot of WWE, on the other hand, the idea of HHH controlling Spike Dudley for a long period of time with a headlock seems perfectly reasonable because HHH is big, Spike is small, and HHH is an asshole. If you're a longtime ECW viewer who remembers Cactus Jack's anti-hardcore period *which Tom gets credit for reminding me of, you relentless press whore*, you can easily see the headlock as an overly long resthold that's designed to piss off the audience (this example is closest to the actual purpose of the headlock in Kibagami/Cortez, by the way.) If you're a huge Ring of Honor fan, you can see the similarities between Kibagami/Cortez and Daniels/Dragon and choose to view the headlock as a well-executed wrestling sequence that has a lot of purpose, fits Kibagami's background as an experienced veteran, and isn't commonly seen in North American wrestling.

 

Now, we have a variety of people in this fed that bring as great a variety of viewpoints as they do styles of writing. Every person in the fed is responsible for contributing to the overall perception of the fed in some way, which means what we have here is a bizarre almagrammation of pretty much every style and subgenre of wrestling in existence. Psychology in this federation is arguably much deeper than anything you're going to find in the real world because we have a ridiculous amount of options in any given match.

 

If somebody offered the same explanation for the Kobashi/Honda headlock that I did for Kibagami/Cortez, I'd say they're completely wrong, because Kobashi/Honda occured in a totally different federation. If they offered the Kibagami/Cortez explanation for a HHH/Spike Dudley match, I'd accept it. They're two different federations with two different systems of internal logic, and you can't definitively say that one is right because they're so fundamentally different. It's apples and oranges.

 

With this in mind, I really, truly don't believe that it's possible to make a statemen about a match sequence written for this federation that's more definitive than "...and that's how it appears to me". There's more than one system of internal logic that's operating here, and we don't have anything even approaching objective to base it on - we have a number of different markers with a number of different tastes in wrestling. There's a large degree of subjectivity here that we just have to accept to be part of the fed.

 

I'm not taking issue with your analysis so much as your presentation of it. I understand you're reluctant to acknowledge perception as an arguable point, but that's just something you and I are going to have to agree to disagree on.

 

K.

[The Ill One 0]

Hey Danny, back the fuck off from King. Alright? Yeah it can sounds like he's just always disappointed by the federation but he means it in a good way. Yes I wish he'd post more than "sigh" but you didn't need to take a personal attack. You're, by far, the bitchiest one about losing matches and you're just begging for flames. King has good means because he has a place in his life at this e-federation and think what you will- if I'd be around so long with many accomplishments it'd pain me with the way the tone is set. Alright you're using Japanese psychology and that's cool. But the headlock explained by others makes perfect sense to me. I'm not trying to attack you but man, don't get so touchy then insult SK. It's not like I'm defending King 'cause I'm good friends or a loyal subject, but because he's a good guy with good intent. So it's pretty fuckin' stupid to just go for the flame like that, man. I don't give a flying fuck what others think- everybody's entitled to their opinion but I do wish King would explain more.

 

It's a great discussion, to me, it's just the tone's a bit wrong. To sound like a chick, "It's not what you said, it's way you said it." But whatever we haven't had good discussion like this in a while. Hell throw in some more positives and you have brilliant discussion. I wish conversation was in depth this often (I'm very guilty of this charge- I hardly read whole shows or promos 'til prodded to) instead of generic comments that you could copy and paste then switch around names and shit.

 

 

(P.S. In a non-bragging, non-I-be-cool way... I'm nearly stoned and drunk and soon I will be beyond belief for me fucked up, so apologies ahead of time. I'll prolly look back think "Man, I was being a dick.")

 

Edit: I started this when it got heated, post it when I remember I left it on. So, uh, yeah.

[HollywoodSpikeJenkins 0]

I think we need more headlocks.

[The Ill One 0]

Dude you want headlocks? IL vs Grapplah ICTV at whatever PPV I actually showed for. Count the DDTs, I dare you. It tops Xero. Now when I get back I want the federation crumbled, dammit!

[HollywoodSpikeJenkins 0]

I demand Dace or Crow put me through a table with a headlock.

[Crowe 0]

Crow's offense is too exciting for that. Ask Dace.

 

[Secret Agent 0]

Come on, IL, calm down a bit dude.

[Coffin Surfer 0]

Hey Danny, back the fuck off from King. Alright? Yeah it can sounds like he's just always disappointed by the federation but he means it in a good way. Yes I wish he'd post more than "sigh" but you didn't need to take a personal attack. You're, by far, the bitchiest one about losing matches and you're just begging for flames. King has good means because he has a place in his life at this e-federation and think what you will- if I'd be around so long with many accomplishments it'd pain me with the way the tone is set. Alright you're using Japanese psychology and that's cool. But the headlock explained by others makes perfect sense to me. I'm not trying to attack you but man, don't get so touchy then insult SK. It's not like I'm defending King 'cause I'm good friends or a loyal subject, but because he's a good guy with good intent. So it's pretty fuckin' stupid to just go for the flame like that, man. I don't give a flying fuck what others think- everybody's entitled to their opinion but I do wish King would explain more.

 

It's a great discussion, to me, it's just the tone's a bit wrong. To sound like a chick, "It's not what you said, it's way you said it." But whatever we haven't had good discussion like this in a while. Hell throw in some more positives and you have brilliant discussion. I wish conversation was in depth this often (I'm very guilty of this charge- I hardly read whole shows or promos 'til prodded to) instead of generic comments that you could copy and paste then switch around names and shit.

 

 

(P.S. In a non-bragging, non-I-be-cool way... I'm nearly stoned and drunk and soon I will be beyond belief for me fucked up, so apologies ahead of time. I'll prolly look back think "Man, I was being a dick.")

 

Edit: I started this when it got heated, post it when I remember I left it on. So, uh, yeah.

Let's not turn this into a flame war..mkay.

 

But if you want to threaten me with flames, bring them, because your opinion means nothing to me anyway. However I must warn you that I will not waste the time to respond to your nonsense, so that takes half the fun out of it. Have I not apologized about my past behavior, and have I not ceased from flaming the markers for their decisions? Yes. So quit living in the past.

 

The way I see it King took a jab at me, and I threw one back. The sigh following my post, made it seem like it was at directed me. I don't find that to be a kind response when from my perspective I'm just trying to liven up the comment folder. Sure Kibs got a little grumpy as he admits, but that isn't my fault. If you don't like the discussion, start your own, and quit bitching about these horrible "Wrestling fans" that's ruined this once great federation.

 

The tone of this conversation between me and Kibs is fine since we've seemed to hav squared everything away. It was fine before than, though I think him rolling out the "purofag" stuff was uncalled for. But it's all cool now.

[Coffin Surfer 0]

"In the context of an AJPW or NJPW match, a long headlock segment does make the attacker appear as an underdog, and if your tastes are primarily skewed towards All Japan and New Japan, you can make a reasonable case against the headlock I wrote"

 

The Nitwits in the New Japan heavyweight division were never smart enough to give a headlock meaning they would rather just lay around in them. But no, this isn't just something that Baba's boys do. This is true in all of wrestling, and you can find it almost anywhere. Hart does it against the vetern IC Champion Piper at Wrestlemania 9, and Steamboat does it against Flair at Chi-Town. If I recall corretly Benjeman even did against HHH not to long ago. It's not apples and oranges, it's all heavyweight pro style.

 

"HHH controlling Spike Dudley for a long period of time with a headlock seems perfectly reasonable because HHH is big, Spike is small, and HHH is an asshole."

 

Unless he's motivated, HHH isn't exactly fantastic at making his opponents look good. He has nothing to gain by controlling Spike with a headlock, bad move. Besides my main quarrel is the slide to floor spot off the rope run, it's a determination spot, which is why I don't think Kibs should have used it.

 

"Daniels/Dragon and choose to view the headlock as a well-executed wrestling sequence that has a lot of purpose, fits Kibagami's background as an experienced veteran, and isn't commonly seen in North American wrestling."

 

But London was playing the fiesty underdog in those matches....if that's the match your refering too. Dragon was the dick.

 

"I understand you're reluctant to acknowledge perception as an arguable point, but that's just something you and I are going to have to agree to disagree on."

 

In my analysis I'm not interested in other's perception, it's how I see the match. By the way it was a wonderfully written sequence, I've never denied that.

[The Ill One 0]

Alright Elbows, that's cool, go back to watching Kawada and fondling yourself.

 

 

Okay looking back yeah I was really stoned and rather drunk. So I'll apologize if it was a personal attack. Sorry for that but man, I just thought you were trying to stir shit up with King, then I heard some new shit but I was too lazy (read: messed up) to post.

[Coffin Surfer 0]

Alright Elbows, that's cool, go back to watching Kawada and fondling yourself.

Wow that's so original.

 

Sarcasm detector:

 

beep....beep...beep.beep! BEEP!BEEP!BEEP!BEEP!BEEP!....beep...beep.

[The Ill One 0]

Man and that totally tops everything man. That response laced with all your wit rolled into one post, man, I actually thought you could make a joke while having a personality 'sides a little bitch.

 

Maybe all the wrestling moves have cluttered your head- didn't I say I don't mean to personally flame you? Then later on I said I'm very stoned and drunk so just forget what I say. But no, you decided to make an attempt to sound mature and not flame me while saying "your opinion means nothing" and whatever else you posted. I always skip through your shit anyway, but hey, you were being a cunt and I'm being one back.

[Coffin Surfer 0]

I was just joking with the last post, who in their right mind would take that seriously?

 

Quit trying to start trouble, and go back to whatever cave you decided to emerge from.

[Mr. S£im Citrus 0]

....

 

 

 

You'd think that us old guys would be more high-strung than you young cats; let's all go outside and get some fresh air...

[Ace309 0]

IL, if you can't hold your liquor and your weed, don't expect other people to forgive you for acting out when you're under the influence. I think you owe a little more contrition than a conditional apology. "Sorry if you were offended" isn't it.