The real problem with Raw

[iggymcfly 0]

I was thinking about what the real problem with Raw is right now, and it's not that there's too much HHH or that there's too much of Eugene. It's that outside of Evolution and Eugene, there is no one who's remotely interesting on the show.

 

I mean look at everybody's characters on the show. If you were playing EWR, half the gimmicks would be listed as old-school face. Here's a character breakdown.

 

Chris Benoit- Serious guy who's good at wrestling. Yeah, that's about it.

 

Edge- Serious guy who's pretty good at wrestling. Oh, and he doesn't like heels.

 

Shelton Benjamin- Serious black guy who's pretty good at wrestling. Oh, what a twist.

 

Shawn Michaels- Serious christian guy who hates HHH.

 

Chris Jericho- Funny guy who's not good at wrestling. Notice, just being a little different makes him somewhat interesting, but losing all his important matches help keeps from getting over.

 

Kane- Scarred monster. Actually a very intriguing character with potential, but the fact that he hasn't won a PPV match in recent memory keeps him from gaining any ground.

 

Matt Hardy- Used to be a jobber, but then his girlfriend got impregnated, and he became an angry serious guy who's good at wrestling. The angry might have gotten him over, but it's all wasted since he's headed to the injury list.

 

Tyson Tomko- Serious guy who's really big. Oh, and he's Trish's bitch too.

 

La Resistance- French Canadians. No really, that's the extent of their gimmick. Sad, huh.

 

Rhyno- Serious american guy.

 

Tajiri- Asian guy who spits mist.

 

Val Venis- Jobber who used to be a porn star a long time ago.

 

 

That's pretty much all the male active wrestlers I can think of who ever gets any TV time outside of Evolution and Eugene. The reason none of them are ever featured is because none of them have a decent character. They're all pretty much interchangeable outside of Jericho and Kane, who of course lose every match they're in.

 

If they'd do something with the rest of the roster to give them characters someone might care about, then they might get somewhere, but basically the writers are so lazy that if they don't have a character already they just kind of let it go, and put them in random matches. They're thinking so far inside the box that they can't even try to work on giving the wrestlers new characters. They just take what they've already got, and find new and uninteresting ways for them to interact.

[SuperJerk 0]

This is a straw man argument if ever there was one. (And there's no way you're going to convince me Matt Hardy's generic based on the description you gave.)

 

 

Let's look at some other crappy gimmicks, using this standard:

 

Hulk Hogan- Superhero guy who wrestles heels.

 

Bret Hart- Serious guy who wrestles in good matches.

 

Mankind- Standard crazy guy who does bumps.

 

Stone Cold- Rebellious face who hates his boss.

 

The Rock- Guy who does catchphrases and wrestles same match over and over.

 

Eddie Guerrero- Generic Mexican dude.

 

Ricky Steamboat- Wrestles good but is boring.

 

Randy Savage- Needs his wife to get over.

 

 

See how easy it is to give a bare-bones description and call someone boring?

 

 

Kane- Scarred monster. Actually a very intriguing character with potential, but the fact that he hasn't won a PPV match in recent memory keeps him from gaining any ground.

"In recent memory"=the most overused expression in the IWC. Its such a subjective term that its meaningless to actually try to measure time with it.

[AndrewTS 0]

Benjamin, Michaels, and Tajiri haven't been on the show in quite some time, so they're kinda non-factors, don't you think?

 

Benoit's barely on the shows at all--they don't know what to do with him since they can't get him to cut promos often.

 

Faces in WWE are usually bland anyway. Even the better face characters are severely toned-down versions of their superior heel characters.

 

Also, the heels on Raw are basically...Evolution, La Res, and Bischoff. So all these plucky faces aren't going to be able to develop interesting characters since they don't have decent adversaries to be ticked at.

 

Christian's injury was obviously a big blow, since he was great support to the midcard. Tomko can't carry that slack.

 

Kane's wasted, per usual. This is when they need him to be strong the most, but they're just having him piddle around with this stupid angle currently, and continue to make him look like an inept jackass.

 

The Women's Division isn't on fire, either.

[Australian Pride 0]

Shawn Michaels- Serious christian guy who hates HHH.

Shawn's religous beliefs dont get pushed on TV. We all know he is a godboy, and he does certain things in his entrance and with his merchandise which show his beliefs but you never hear JR screaming about religion during a HBK match.

He is more pushed as an icon/legend who has overcome massive odds to still be wrestling despite 4 years on the bench with a back injury.

[NoCalMike 0]

I was thinking about what the real problem with Raw is right now, and it's not that there's too much HHH or that there's too much of Eugene. It's that outside of Evolution and Eugene, there is no one who's remotely interesting on the show.

 

I mean look at everybody's characters on the show. If you were playing EWR, half the gimmicks would be listed as old-school face. Here's a character breakdown.

 

Chris Benoit- Serious guy who's good at wrestling. Yeah, that's about it.

 

Edge- Serious guy who's pretty good at wrestling. Oh, and he doesn't like heels.

 

Shelton Benjamin- Serious black guy who's pretty good at wrestling. Oh, what a twist.

 

Shawn Michaels- Serious christian guy who hates HHH.

 

Chris Jericho- Funny guy who's not good at wrestling. Notice, just being a little different makes him somewhat interesting, but losing all his important matches help keeps from getting over.

 

Kane- Scarred monster. Actually a very intriguing character with potential, but the fact that he hasn't won a PPV match in recent memory keeps him from gaining any ground.

 

Matt Hardy- Used to be a jobber, but then his girlfriend got impregnated, and he became an angry serious guy who's good at wrestling. The angry might have gotten him over, but it's all wasted since he's headed to the injury list.

 

Tyson Tomko- Serious guy who's really big. Oh, and he's Trish's bitch too.

 

La Resistance- French Canadians. No really, that's the extent of their gimmick. Sad, huh.

 

Rhyno- Serious american guy.

 

Tajiri- Asian guy who spits mist.

 

Val Venis- Jobber who used to be a porn star a long time ago.

 

 

That's pretty much all the male active wrestlers I can think of who ever gets any TV time outside of Evolution and Eugene. The reason none of them are ever featured is because none of them have a decent character. They're all pretty much interchangeable outside of Jericho and Kane, who of course lose every match they're in.

 

If they'd do something with the rest of the roster to give them characters someone might care about, then they might get somewhere, but basically the writers are so lazy that if they don't have a character already they just kind of let it go, and put them in random matches. They're thinking so far inside the box that they can't even try to work on giving the wrestlers new characters. They just take what they've already got, and find new and uninteresting ways for them to interact.

Do you honestly think this is by accident though? WWE had plenty of guys a year ago ready to step up to the plate, before they were beaten and discarded by Triple H. I mean seriously we should consider it a gift from GOD ALMIGHTY that Benoit has been able to do what he has done against HHH so far.

[Guest NiTR0]

Chris Jericho- Funny guy who's not good at wrestling. Notice, just being a little different makes him somewhat interesting, but losing all his important matches help keeps from getting over.

Chris Jericho isn't a good wrestler?

[Guest Salacious Crumb]

HHH is the main problem with Raw. The fact that they have to import wrestlers from Smackdown since he buried all of his opponents should show you this. Also look at the fact that there are no heels for Benoit to face in the main event. These are all problems caused by HHH's screen hogging and going over everyone in sight.

[Guest The Ultimate Fantasy]

Dude what about the heels like Evolution and HHH?

 

HHH- Serious heel who doesn't like Faces (SOURCE OF ALL THAT IS EVIL)

 

Randy Orton- Car reck between a Rock-wannabe and a serious heel (KING OF THE RKO ROLL-UP AND IS NOT DDP)

 

FLAIR- CANNOT BE JUDGED BECAUSE OF AGE (UNLESS BRET HART FAN THAN SEE, HHH)

 

BATISTA-Serious heel who dosen't like but is strong and good is heel (although he posses more than Jindrak)

 

Thus your point is invaild because you did not focus on the true foucus the heels who make the faces better.

[Guest Repo Man Reborn]

Let's not forget......

 

 

Eugene: Retard guy who does eveyone else's moves

 

 

 

When the show revolves around one person (and his group), it is hard to develop characters who aren't currently in an angle with him.

 

 

 

Why should I care that Rhyno has finally found a partner in Tajiri when I hear during the whole match about how Triple H is going to get Eugene for Vengence? Or that Edge is coming for Evolution?

[humongous2002 0]

What's wrong with RAW and WWE in general is the fact that management would try their hardest to develop their favorites' characters(Usually a McMahon family member, a homegrown talent from OVW, a buttkissing hoss or Taker) everybody else gets the leftovers and sometimes they are not even allowed to get too over because it would make their favorites look bad.

[Guest Repo Man Reborn]

What's wrong with RAW and WWE in general is the fact that management would try their hardest to develop their favorites' characters(Usually a McMahon family member, a homegrown talent from OVW, a buttkissing hoss or Taker) everybody else gets the leftovers and sometimes they are not even allowed to get too over because it would make their favorites look bad.

Exactly what I said, with less puncutation and coherence.

[razazteca 0]

The real problem with Raw is that they make one match and run it into the ground. Case at point would be HHH vs HBK, Dudleys vs La Rez, and Christian vs Jericho. Also it seems that the tag team division consist of the champions vs the same opponet for a year with some mix & match teams that show up on randam days. How am I suppose to care about the tag team division when there are not any true tag teams around to give the champions a credible challenge and when they do it gets boring after 2 weeks?

 

Another problem is the focus on other subjects outside of the Raw universe if you will. I do not give a flying fuck about the Smackdown Rebound or Playboy models who want to do stupid human tricks for Jerry Lawler or the Rock doing a speech at Fort Hood. If it has nothing to do with current angles of the month then it is just a waste of time. I thought the whole purpose of the Experience was to put this fluff on Saturday mournings and not on Monday!?!?!?!

 

Keep the crap off of the "better" show.

[humongous2002 0]

What's wrong with RAW and WWE in general is the fact that management would try their hardest to develop their favorites' characters(Usually a McMahon family member, a homegrown talent from OVW, a buttkissing hoss or Taker) everybody else gets the leftovers and sometimes they are not even allowed to get too over because it would make their favorites look bad.

Exactly what I said, with less puncutation and coherence.

Here's your medal.

[BHK 0]

Benjamin, Michaels, and Tajiri haven't been on the show in quite some time, so they're kinda non-factors, don't you think?

Tajiri was just on Raw this past monday, I believe.

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

Chris Jericho isn't a good wrestler?

 

In kayfabe he's not. That's why he loses all the time. Undertaker would be a good wrestler because he wins all the time.

[AndrewTS 0]

Benjamin, Michaels, and Tajiri haven't been on the show in quite some time, so they're kinda non-factors, don't you think?

Tajiri was just on Raw this past monday, I believe.

Yeah I know, but he wasn't on the show at all since the Batista match and up until this Monday, and he didn't even wrestle or do anything major this week. So you can hardly cite him as a boring character that's been dragging the show down.

 

I think we've basically touched on the myriad reasons--not enough good heels, the heels we actually have are the focus on the show and there are a lot of faces left spinning their wheels, so many of the talent is directionless.

 

During the Raw hot period they had something for nearly everyone to do, even if it was filler or comedy (S.H.I.T., for instance).

 

The Diva search stuff is getting really, really absurd...but you knew that.

[Guest TigerDriver91]

The Women's Division isn't on fire, either.

That isn't surprising when two of its top stars are injured.

[benoit4hor 0]

The real problem with Raw is that they make one match and run it into the ground. Case at point would be HHH vs HBK, Dudleys vs La Rez, and Christian vs Jericho.

The old NWA/WCW ran Dusty Rhodes vs Flair, R&R Express vs Midnight Express into the ground and I loved it.

 

In fact the focus on the show around then was The IV Horsemen vs The faces and it was great.

 

Dusty Rhodes

Nikita Kolloff

The R&R Express

The Road Warriors

Ronnie Garvin

Jimmy Garvin

Barry Windham

 

All basically trying to take out

The IV Horsemen(Evolution) & The Midnight Express(La Resistance)

[razazteca 0]

I think we've basically touched on the myriad reasons--not enough good heels, the heels we actually have are the focus on the show and there are a lot of faces left spinning their wheels, so many of the talent is directionless.

I agree

 

All basically trying to take out

The IV Horsemen(Evolution) & The Midnight Express(La Resistance)

There is no way that La Rez is anyway compareable with any team that used the Express name........not even the Holly & Gunn team! If anything La Rez is Natural Born Thriller of Palombo & Jindrak as they were heavily pushed as contenders for the tag team title even though they were very very very green.

[Guest Repo Man Reborn]

In fact the focus on the show around then was The IV Horsemen vs The faces and it was great.

 

Dusty Rhodes

Nikita Kolloff

The R&R Express

The Road Warriors

Ronnie Garvin

Jimmy Garvin

Barry Windham

 

All basically trying to take out

The IV Horsemen(Evolution) & The Midnight Express(La Resistance)

To compare La Resistance to the Midnight Express is like comparing Ricky Steamboat to S.D. Jones ("from Antigua in the West Indies....")

 

 

 

And let's try to update your other examples:

 

Dusty Rhodes - There is no one with the charisma or the face push of Dusty Rhodes on RAW right now. The closest thing would have been Shawn Michaels. Oops. He's on vacation.

 

Nikita Koloff - The intense monster is Batista. Can he feud with Evolution?

 

The R&R Express - Your face tag team is Tajiri and Rhyno. I see no mullets. I see no double dropkicks.

 

The Road Warriors - The non-selling hoss tag team are the brothers who are not burnt and not dead. And not on the same show.

 

Ronnie Garvin - Ah, here we go. A lame duck champion holding the belt for the company centerpiece. My hands of stone cannot type out Chris Benoit fast enough.

 

Jimmy Garvin - Let Palumbo grow out his perm and a beard, then we're talk'in.

 

Barry Windham - Solid worker. Not too much on the mic. Could be Garrison Cade with hair, probably more like Edge since he's returned. Or maybe even Barry Windham if he comes back for his 54th WWF makeover.

 

 

My point is, Evolution can be used the same way the Horsemen were, to make stars. They made Magnum TA, Lex Luger or LUGAR (depending if you are reading this in Florida) and definitely Sting.

 

 

Who has Evolution made? They feud with someone for a few weeks and then he gets SHUNTED ( my new favorite word) back down to the midcard.

 

 

- Benjamin gets wins over HHH. Then he drops down to Orton. Now he is invisible.

 

- Edge gets in HHH's face. Then he drops down to Orton. Takes the belt. Then he drops down to Batista. Then during the Eugene beat down he is invisible.

 

- Jericho gets to talk to HHH. Then he drops down to Orton. Then to Batista. No he is feuding with Trish's bodyguard.

 

 

Even the retard character is making someone. Regal's character has been brought back from the dead.

 

For more than one or two weeks.

[Guest TigerDriver91]

- Benjamin gets wins over HHH. Then he drops down to Orton. Now he is invisible.

You do realize that Shelton Benjamin is sidelined with an injury, right?

[Guest Repo Man Reborn]

- Benjamin gets wins over HHH. Then he drops down to Orton. Now he is invisible.

You do realize that Shelton Benjamin is sidelined with an injury, right?

Now I do.

 

 

Are you confident he will jump back into the mix with Evolution?

 

Or can you see him headlining HEAT?

[benoit4hor 0]

Uh I was comparing the focus of the show being a heel four man stable and heel tag team facing all the faces. I in no way was I saying any of the people were as good as the old NWA days. I wasn't saying La Resistance was equal to the midnight express in any way, just that they were the heel tag team that the show's focus was on.

 

 

btw who on Raw should become a credible breakout star threat?

Who in your opinion should Evolution make the next Sting, Magnum TA, or Luger

Garrison Cade?

The Hurricane?

Chuck Palumbo?

[Guest brethart]

The real problem with Raw is that they make one match and run it into the ground.  Case at point would be HHH vs HBK, Dudleys vs La Rez, and Christian vs Jericho.

The old NWA/WCW ran Dusty Rhodes vs Flair, R&R Express vs Midnight Express into the ground and I loved it.

 

In fact the focus on the show around then was The IV Horsemen vs The faces and it was great.

 

Dusty Rhodes

Nikita Kolloff

The R&R Express

The Road Warriors

Ronnie Garvin

Jimmy Garvin

Barry Windham

 

All basically trying to take out

The IV Horsemen(Evolution) & The Midnight Express(La Resistance)

NO offence but you thought Dusty Rhodes was great?

[Guest Salacious Crumb]

Dusty wasn't great or even good in the ring but he has a rightful place as one of the wrestling legends.

[benoit4hor 0]

NO offence but you thought Dusty Rhodes was great?

No not really, but back then(as a kid before the internet exposed bad workers and mic skills) the feud with Flair was great.

[Guest Repo Man Reborn]

Dusty was a good as he booked himself.

 

 

His bionic elbow was booked on par with Hogan's legdrop.

[Fro 0]

NO offence but you thought Dusty Rhodes was great?

No not really, but back then(as a kid before the internet exposed bad workers and mic skills) the feud with Flair was great.

Dusty could be incredible on the mic.... probably the closest guy as far as that goes would be Cena at this point.

[Promoter 0]

The real problem with wrestling all together is that FORMAT imo. Wrestling didn't take off again until nitro gave a new format. Vince was still stuck with his old crappy format with pig farmers opening up raw and got his tail kicked for it in ratings. The wwe changed up their format and lo and behold attendance and attention rose. The things that worked great from 1996-2000 aren't working anymore. Here is a list of things that need to go.

 

EVIL ADMINISTRATOR

*This thing is played out. There is no balance. The GM act like there is no set plan for the night and everything is by chance. It was great as a break from tradition in the 90's because it created the live atmosphere of anything can happen, but it worked well because there was at least some structure in place originally. You got Bischoff and Angle pretending to run things, while when Vince was doing it things felt more genuine because the wwe became honest about the man behind the scenes. What is the real purpose of the general managers in kayfabe when we know Vince and Linda are the bosses. They have not given a real reason why there are general managers.

 

Matches happen for the most stupid reason and there is no structure of people getting matches. There is no working your way to the top to make fans care about the chase. Didn't Eugene just enter the damn wwe? How is he getting a world title shot before someone like say Christian or Chris Jericho? The current story is about Triple H and his belt. He chases the belt or he retains the belt and everyone else is just a distraction(I'm not bashing Triple H, but that is how the structure feels). Look at Edge's I-C title win for an example. Sure he won the strap, but does anyone really care? There was no real build up and who in the hell did he leap over to get to the strap?

 

Over on smackdown you got someone like Angle running the show and doing things that make no sense. Why hasn't the baord stepped in for taking a title off a merchandise seller? They told the story better with Steve Austin and Vince Mcmahon through the idea that Austin was a PR nightmare compared to other corporate champs such as the ol' school Hulk Hogan or even Bret Hart. The title situation is the same thing as on raw. Bradshaw becomes wwe champ out of nowhere. I can see how the masses has turned off. I also agree that the wwe loves to run things into the ground.

[Dangerous A 0]

All of you trying to do 1-2 sentence descripts of the wrestlers and how they are on Raw are retarded.

 

Raw has problems, but not nearly as bad as SD. SD is the show that should get a thread, not Raw.