Make a statement

[haVoc 0]

Statement: The Smackdown taping was so terrible last night there's not even spoilers.

[Spaceman Spiff 0]

Rebuttal: after reading the SD spoilers, it looks more interesting than Raw (for me, at least).

[Guest Big Daddy V1]

question: Was there another Carlito "Carribean" Cool promo on SD or did the spoilers not mention one?

[Guest Rrrsh]

Statement: Altho 1998 and 1999 were incredably popular, Russo's "Crash TV" has done more harm than good.

[Fökai 0]

question: Was there another Carlito "Carribean" Cool promo on SD or did the spoilers not mention one?

Spoiler text...

 

After the break another video aired of Carlito Cool. This one of him taking some man's cell phone and talking on it and when then man asks for it back Carlito replies "Can't you see I'm on the phone?" and saying that the guy isn't cool like him.

[The Mandarin 0]

Let's bring it back.

 

Statement: WWF WrestleMania X-7 was overall (both financially and critically) the best pay-per-view of all time, and was likely the pinnacle of American wrestling.

[Guest TonyJaymzV1]

Let's bring it back.

 

Statement: WWF WrestleMania X-7 was overall (both financially and critically) the best pay-per-view of all time, and was likely the pinnacle of American wrestling.

Rebuttal: I agree, X-7 was probably the best PPV ever, truly bringing the "3 ring circus" mantra of the WWE to it's best example.

 

Statement: WM X is by far the most overrated ppv in WWF/E history, and at the same time being far from the best WM ever.

 

Statement: If the WWE wants to get ratings up and people interested in the product again, they've got to start doing drastic and suprising moves i.e. having someone unexpected win the world title(Orton, eddie, Benoit etc. were expected winners..you knew Orton would win at SS). My choice? On Smackdown, with no build up have Rey Mysterio challenge JBL and win. Make the show can't miss, and since a large demographic of the audience is hispanic, they will latch onto a champion they can identify with, and the IWC will cream themselves hearing that a cruiserweight won a world title.

[Prophet of Mike Zagurski 0]

Let's bring it back.

 

Statement: WWF WrestleMania X-7 was overall (both financially and critically) the best pay-per-view of all time, and was likely the pinnacle of American wrestling.

I like this thread.

 

Rebuttal: Yes WM X-7 was the peak of American Pro Wrestling, match and storyline wise. WM XX came close but it was too long and most of the matches had little importance.

 

 

Statement: The Kliq has done more good than bad in the past. For instance, King of the Ring 1996 when HHH was supposed to win the tournament. Before that, he hugged his best friends good bye and jobbed in the KOR. Stone Cold won and the rest is history.

 

Second case for the Kliq:

 

Kevin Nash was responsible for the demise of WCW and the WWF bought it and is using it to make money,

[Australian Pride 0]

Statement: WM X is by far the most overrated ppv in WWF/E history, and at the same time being far from the best WM ever.

 

Statement: If the WWE wants to get ratings up and people interested in the product again, they've got to start doing drastic and suprising moves i.e. having someone unexpected win the world title(Orton, eddie, Benoit etc. were expected winners..you knew Orton would win at SS). My choice? On Smackdown, with no build up have Rey Mysterio challenge JBL and win. Make the show can't miss, and since a large demographic of the audience is hispanic, they will latch onto a champion they can identify with, and the IWC will cream themselves hearing that a cruiserweight won a world title.

Rebuttal: I've never considered WM10 to be a classic wrestling show, just a wrestling show with a couple of memorable/classic matches on it. Outside of Owen/Bret, Shawn/Razor and Bret's title win there is really nothing else on the show. I'm not sure how others rate it but i've never heard the whole event referred to in glowing terms.

 

Rebuttal: That would be a great idea in theory, but the opinions of the IWC are not even considered valid by WWE so that factor has to be thrown out. They tried to identify with the hispanic audience with Eddie as champ, and I think to a certain degree it worked, but it wasnt a major success along the Austin lines. Rey as champ would make a nice change, as everyone knows he can hang with the big boys but has never been given a big time win over any of them.

Edited September 9, 2004 by Australian Pride

[Guest TonyJaymzV1]

Rebuttal: That would be a great idea in theory, but the opinions of the IWC are not even considered valid by WWE so that factor has to be thrown out. They tried to identify with the hispanic audience with Eddie as champ, and I think to a certain degree it worked, but it wasnt a major success along the Austin lines. Rey as champ would make a nice change, as everyone knows he can hang with the big boys but has never been given a big time win over any of them.

Rebuttal: That's the great thing about Rey. He's been built up as a Super-Cruiser. He's hanged with all the big boys, and even though he's lost most of those matches, the fans have become used to seeing him in the same ring as Eddie, Angle, etc. that if he was to shockingly win, it would be under the "Holy Shit, Jericho just beat HH for the title" suprise rather than a "The fuck? David Arquette?" suprise.

[Guest TheLastBoyscout]

Statement: Chris Benoit's character was never cooler than when he was in ECW; cutting promos about breaking people and rubbing his hands together.

 

Yeah, that's the good shit right there.

[Corey_Lazarus 0]

Rebuttal:

I'd have to agree. Benoit's best promo to date was his one featured on ECW's "Double Tables" tape about him and Malenko challenging for the Tag Team belts the next event. It was so cryptic and disturbing, and mostly because he was talking about the pleasure in brutally injuring his forthcoming opponents so very calmly.

 

Statement:

If HHH had lost to Jericho at Fully Loaded 2000, 100% cleanly, and Jericho's reign as Undisputed Champion wasn't filled with countless run-in's and cheap victories, would ratings and live attendance be better?

[Brett Favre 0]

Rebuttal: Yes, because there would be a new face as champ, and it was the old faces that ruined the ratings in the first place (HHH, Taker, Hogan). A new face was needed, and they didn't come through.

[Guest Rrrsh]

Statement: Even with all the buryings of Jericho, if given the strap and a proper push, he would make more money than HHH. Easy

[Guest TheLastBoyscout]

Statement: Even with all the buryings of Jericho, if given the strap and a proper push, he would make more money than HHH. Easy

Rebuttal: HHH was Champion for part of, and was a big piece of the year 2000. The year 2000 was the most profitable year in the history of the company.

[Corey_Lazarus 0]

Rebuttal:

Doubtful. There is something about him that HHH has and Jericho lacks, and that is a truly marketable look. As great a wrestler as Jericho is, and as more an entertaining one, he doesn't have this "aura" to him that HHH, Rock, Austin, Taker, etc. have/had. Plus, seeing as how HHH is considered one of the best drawing champions ever because he was champion for half of 2000, WWF's most profitable year to date, I doubt Jericho would draw more than him.

 

Statement:

New signee "The Promise" Antonio Thomas has more of a chance of getting over on TV than most of the younger stars.

[Guest TheLastBoyscout]

Antonio who? Dude, provide some info. I haven't heard about thisat all.

[Guest Shoes Head]

Statement: Even with all the buryings of Jericho, if given the strap and a proper push, he would make more money than HHH. Easy

Rebuttal: Yes, if by "proper push" you mean a winning streak prior to holding the strap to erase fans' memories of him being jobbed out in almost every single one of his major feuds of the past 2 years.

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

STATEMENT: Kane's burial is the biggest crime in the company. He consistantly draws well when ever given a chance, certainly moreso than Jericho or RVD or any other guy on the shit list.

[Guest Shoes Head]

STATEMENT: Kane's burial is the biggest crime in the company. He consistantly draws well when ever given a chance, certainly moreso than Jericho or RVD or any other guy on the shit list.

Rebuttal: It's not a shame at all because he's incapable of putting on enjoyable matches unless he's feuding with someone who has excellent workrate. Hopefully he will be burried some more until he's totally off any PPV card.

[AlwaysPissedOff 0]

Statement: The Kliq has done more good than bad in the past. For instance, King of the Ring 1996 when HHH was supposed to win the tournament. Before that, he hugged his best friends good bye and jobbed in the KOR. Stone Cold won and the rest is history.

 

Second case for the Kliq:

 

Kevin Nash was responsible for the demise of WCW and the WWF bought it and is using it to make money,

Rebuttal: That's not an example of the Kliq doing "good" for pro wrestling.

 

Rebuttal #2: Kevin Nash did not kill WCW. Hogan not doing the clean job to Sting at Starrcade signalled the beginning of the end because it showed that WCW Management didn't have the balls to tell Hogan "No.".

 

 

Rebuttal: It's not a shame at all because he's incapable of putting on enjoyable matches unless he's feuding with someone who has excellent workrate.

Statement: The exact same thing can be said for Christian.

 

Statement #2: Chris Jericho is no longer a world-class worker(honestly, I don't think he ever was) and it's time some people realized that and quit putting him in the same class as Benoit and Guerrero.

[Lord of The Curry 0]

Jericho was never a world class worker. Solid and consistent enough to be considered in the upper-tier of workers mainly due to his carrying ability but there's too many things going against him to even put him in the world class category.

[CanadianChick 0]

Question: Of the current batch of wrestlers in WWE, are Eddie and Benoit the only ones considered World Class?

[GreatWhiteNope 0]

Question: Of the current batch of wrestlers in WWE, are Eddie and Benoit the only ones considered World Class?

I would think so - seeing they are the only members of the roster who have had successful stints in various foreign organizations prior to their mainstream success. They are heavily respected for that.

 

You could also make the argument they are still in their prime.

[Guest Shoes Head]

Statement #2: Chris Jericho is no longer a world-class worker(honestly, I don't think he ever was) and it's time some people realized that and quit putting him in the same class as Benoit and Guerrero.

Rebuttal: Your statement has nothing to do with my initial rebuttal. You asserted that Kane's burial was the biggest crime in the company, and I pointed out that it was far from that. I'm supposing by your mentioning Jericho that you're implying that he also is incapable of putting on enjoyable matches without being carried. And, of course, this is absurd.

 

EDIT: It wasn't your initial assertion that Kane's burial was the biggest crime in the company, but you played off of it.

[Lord of The Curry 0]

Question: Of the current batch of wrestlers in WWE, are Eddie and Benoit the only ones considered World Class?

I would think so - seeing they are the only members of the roster who have had successful stints in various foreign organizations prior to their mainstream success. They are heavily respected for that.

 

You could also make the argument they are still in their prime.

It's really tough to judge for either of the two, considering that Benoit has been really good from the get-go and can put on two totally different but equally awsome ***** matches ten years apart (vs Sasuke and Angle, respectively.)

 

Eddy only really started to pick up momentum after the botched heel turn on Tajiri and has upped his game signifigantly since then. But then again, he was also doing this back in 1995 with Benoit in New Japan, with Malenko in ECW and with Rey in WCW.

 

I'm not sure if these guys have primes.

[AlwaysPissedOff 0]

Statement #2: Chris Jericho is no longer a world-class worker(honestly, I don't think he ever was) and it's time some people realized that and quit putting him in the same class as Benoit and Guerrero.

Rebuttal: Your statement has nothing to do with my initial rebuttal. You asserted that Kane's burial was the biggest crime in the company, and I pointed out that it was far from that. I'm supposing by your mentioning Jericho that you're implying that he also is incapable of putting on enjoyable matches without being carried. And, of course, this is absurd.

 

EDIT: It wasn't your initial assertion that Kane's burial was the biggest crime in the company, but you played off of it.

Actually, my Christian statement played off of your Kane statement. My Jericho one was completely unrelated.

[Lil' Bitch 0]

Statement: The Kliq has done more good than bad in the past.

 

Rebuttal: False, the Kliq were a bunch of wrestlers who only looked out for themselves and nobody else. Always were and always will be.

 

Before that, he hugged his best friends good bye and jobbed in the KOR. Stone Cold won and the rest is history.

 

Nice point, but you forget Bret Hart was the other part of the puzzle that immortalized Stone Cold. If you want to stretch it out a little bit, you could say Bret Hart saved the WWF by leaving it.

 

Kevin Nash was responsible for the demise of WCW and the WWF bought it and is using it to make money,

 

Rebuttal: False, AOL Time Warner was responsible for the demise of WCW.

 

 

Statement: RAW would be better if HHH wasn't involved in the main event scene for the billionth time.

[Promoter 0]

Let's bring it back.

 

Statement: WWF WrestleMania X-7 was overall (both financially and critically) the best pay-per-view of all time, and was likely the pinnacle of American wrestling.

Rebuttal: Although critically acclaimed I would not call this event the pinnacle of North American wrestling. I would say it is the pinnacle of the Attitude Era and possibly the event that closed the era.

 

My choice for the pinnacle of North American wrestling is WrestleMania III. Here is why:

 

Hulk Hogan vs. Andre the Giant was bigger than Rock/Austin 2. The big aura of the match can be closely matched, but Hogan/Andre the Giant is just that much bigger. It was somewhat of the passing of the torch, but not really. However, I can see how the revisionist history by the company can view it that way.

 

Ricky "The Dragon" Steamboat and Randy "Macho Man" Savage put on a clinic that WM 17 could not pull off. The height of the I-C title was much greater than at WM 17 where it was the opening match. The best choice to compete with this match technically is Angle/Benoit and it's not even close.

 

The Undertaker/HHH was special for the reason that both were dominate heading into this Mania. It was a better match than say Piper/Adonis(comparable in terms of draw at the time), but Piper/Adonis had way more emotional attachment by the crowd. Vince/Shane also fall into this category for a sports entertainment segment.

 

The Hart Foundation were wwf tag team champion at the event and were in a heated feud with The British Bulldogs which have now become legendary. Add in Tito Santana and Danny Davis as a sidebar(which add to the storyline) and you got a stronger choice for the pinnacle of tag team wrestling in North America than at WM 17 where I believe the six man is pretty weak. Hillbilly Jim/Midgets vs. Bundy/midgets are grouped into here along with the gimmick battle royal.

 

There are better built up undercard matches at WM III such as Hercules vs. Billy Jack Haynes. This is where it gets fuzzy though. Test/Eddie is perhaps a stronger match. The tag team situation with Orton/Muraco vs. Can-Am Connection to open the show wasn't bad. WM 17 has WM III beat for gimmick match though with the TLC match.

 

Then you got to consider the crowds. WM III has it beat regardless of the controversy Meltzer states about the record. You have to also take into consideration where the company went after the event. The wwf became bigger because the event was all over the media such as Entertainment Tonight and George Michael's Sports Machine. I think WM III was the pinnacle of pro wrestling in North America. For years Hogan lived off this event and so did the wwf. The same can't be said of WM 17 where things have all gone downhill since. I know it's two different eras and times were different, but all things being equal WM III is much more reknown as THE EVENT.

 

As for WM X it is over-rated by the net, but it has a strong storyline element in the "final four" March Madness concept with Owen/Bret and Yoko/Luger with the conclusion ending up with Yoko/Bret. Add in the ladder match as well. It has the tenth anniversary aura to it. At least this event had Roddy Piper in the main event to play off the tenth anniversary. The rest of the card is pure trash though. They did the best they could do with what they had back then and I think that's why some look so fondly back on it when you take into account the timeframe.

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

Rebuttal: False, AOL Time Warner was responsible for the demise of WCW.

 

I agree, in fact with this in mind...

 

STATEMENT: If Ted Turner was still in charge, WCW would still be around. He would kept the company afloat no matter how much money it was losing (see 1993).