The OAO third and FINAL Presidential Debate Thread

[Guest MikeSC]

Kerry's mentioning Cheney's daughter was a political move. Cheney retorting by making this an issue is a political move.

Ah, so Cheney is just as bad as Kerry and Edwards for stating that he didn't like Kerry and Edwards bringing his daughter into the debate?

 

So, if Clinton said Rush's joke about Chelsea was over the line, he would've been just as bad as Rush was for making it, right?

-=Mike

...Heck, let's see Cheney accuse Edwards of causing the death of his son --- then watch you claim that Edwards is making it a political issue by calling it tasteless...

[Guest MikeSC]

The big story today is that every polling firm has confirmed that Kerry is the winner of all three debates. Even a loaded WP/AP poll (which sampled 8% more Republicans than Democrats) agrees that Kerry pulled out the victory last night (42%-41%, even with the sampling bias).

 

Bush failed miserably in debating Kerry. That's the conclusion that America is drawing from these debates. Not this laughable Mary Cheney scandal or any other grasping-at-straws stories that Mike decides to post.

Hold on to that pipe dream.

 

Heck, can anybody name a debate that a Republican has ever won, according to the bullshit polls?

-=Mike

[Jobber of the Week 0]

That's wrong. CNN has been showing an interview with him denouncing Kerry's comments all day.

Well, my opinion is that it's fair game if the other guy brings it up. Cheney, bless him for being supportive instead outcasting her, has made mention of her before to connect with moderates while diffusing the administration's marriage platform, which caters only to far-right conservatives.

 

I'm against using families for political points, but once someone drags their family member into it, that family member is open to commentary from the other side as long as it's done respectfully. Like when Laura Bush started rambling off on stem cell research like she's a Nobel scientist and fully researched the issue, when those of us who knew better quietly sighed and suggested that it would be more effective if Bush introduced people with credentials to denounce the research instead a K-12 Teacher.

[Dr. Tyler; Captain America 0]

So, if Clinton said Rush's joke about Chelsea was over the line, he would've been just as bad as Rush was for making it, right?

 

Nope, because Clinton didn't start a full-blown media crusade about it. If Cheney made an offhand remark, sure, no problem. That's probably what Clinton did. But making entire speeches and interviews about it and professing extreme anger over a comment that was not remotely insulting is politics. Rush compared Chelsea to a dog. Kerry (correctly) pointed out that Mary Cheney is a lesbian. Kerry used the fact for political gain, which was wrong. It's being overblown to hell right now, however, as it was a minor point at best.

 

Heck, can anybody name a debate that a Republican has ever won, according to the bullshit polls?

-=Mike

 

See: 2000.

[Guest MikeSC]

So, if Clinton said Rush's joke about Chelsea was over the line, he would've been just as bad as Rush was for making it, right?

 

Nope, because Clinton didn't start a full-blown media crusade about it. If Cheney made an offhand remark, sure, no problem. That's probably what Clinton did.

 

Also, Rush immediately apologized. But, Rush has more class than Kerry or Edwards, so that's neither here nor there.

 

Cheney let it slide when Edwards did it. When Kerry does it, it shows it's part of a strategy.

But making entire speeches and interviews about it and professing extreme anger over a comment that was not remotely insulting is politics.

He invoked family and Edwards fucking cow of a wife stated that Lynne Cheney must be ashamed of her daughter.

 

Can that fucking hoss just have a fucking heart attack and spare us all of her fucking platititudes?

Rush compared Chelsea to a dog. Kerry (correctly) pointed out that Mary Cheney is a lesbian. Kerry used the fact for political gain, which was wrong. It's being overblown to hell right now, however, as it was a minor point at best.

Bringing families into political campaigns was ALWAYS viewed as off-limits --- until Bush came to office.

 

But, scorched earth is the left's goal. If they can't govern, dammit, nobody will govern!

Heck, can anybody name a debate that a Republican has ever won, according to the bullshit polls?

-=Mike

See: 2000.

And I'll be stunned if the polls indicated any Bush wins.

-=Mike

[Dr. Tyler; Captain America 0]

Hahaha.

 

Also, Rush immediately apologized. But, Rush has more class than Kerry or Edwards, so that's neither here nor there.

 

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,135392,00.html

 

Cheney let it slide when Edwards did it. When Kerry does it, it shows it's part of a strategy.

 

Edwards was complimenting Cheney. So, uh, do we now have to let compliments "slide" in our society?

 

He invoked family and Edwards fucking cow of a wife

Can that fucking hoss just have a fucking heart attack and spare us all of her fucking platititudes?

 

Wow, that was mature. Thanks for the input!

 

Bringing families into political campaigns was ALWAYS viewed as off-limits --- until Bush came to office.

 

Cheney brought his daughter into it first. Both Edwards and Kerry commended it and brought it up, albeit probably for political reasons, in compliments to Cheney and his family. Their staged outrage over the comments either show that they're worried about how Cheney's stance on gay marriage is in contradiction to the far-right views of Bush in terms of a Constitutional amendment banning gay marriage, or that they completely misunderstood Kerry's comment.

 

Don't make poor GW out to be a martyr; you've done enough of that in the past seven months.

 

But, scorched earth is the left's goal. If they can't govern, dammit, nobody will govern!

 

...oh.

 

And I'll be stunned if the polls indicated any Bush wins.

-=Mike

 

http://www.pollingreport.com/white.htm

 

Not across the board, but Bush scored significant wins in 2 of the 3 debates. Not so in 2004, where he was expected to win but has, according to the polls, significantly underperformed. In 2000, nothing was expected of him. He exceeded expectations and tooled Gore. In 2004, Kerry was ready for him and has, in the public's eye, wiped the floor with Bush.

[NoCalMike 0]

I'm still getting over the..."Rush has more class than...." comment.......

[Guest MikeSC]

Hahaha.

 

Also, Rush immediately apologized. But, Rush has more class than Kerry or Edwards, so that's neither here nor there.

 

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,135392,00.html

 

Not quite the same as "I'm sorry. I shouldn't have brought her up, nor should my VP candidate", now is it?

Cheney let it slide when Edwards did it. When Kerry does it, it shows it's part of a strategy.

Edwards was complimenting Cheney. So, uh, do we now have to let compliments "slide" in our society?

You're not THIS stupid, Tyler. You really aren't.

He invoked family and Edwards fucking cow of a wife

Can that fucking hoss just have a fucking heart attack and spare us all of her fucking platititudes?

Wow, that was mature. Thanks for the input!

Fuck her. Fuck that smelly cow twat.

Bringing families into political campaigns was ALWAYS viewed as off-limits --- until Bush came to office.

Cheney brought his daughter into it first.

He was ASKED ABOUT IT by a reporter in IA. He most assuredly did NOT bring it up.

Both Edwards and Kerry commended it and brought it up, albeit probably for political reasons, in compliments to Cheney and his family.

Oh give me a break. It's a blatantly transparent attempt to try and tell the religious conservatives that "Your VP has a queer daughter". Stop pretending that you're a total moron.

Their staged outrage over the comments either show that they're worried about how Cheney's stance on gay marriage is in contradiction to the far-right views of Bush in terms of a Constitutional amendment banning gay marriage, or that they completely misunderstood Kerry's comment.

Or they got a real problem with their FAMILY being brought into a political debate repatedly.

 

They have real outrage, as well they should.

 

Edwards has said that if any of his staffers mentioned his dead son, he'd fire them on the spot. Why does Cheney not get the same respect of having his family not being a topic?

Don't make poor GW out to be a martyr; you've done enough of that in the past seven months.

Bush isn't the one blatantly gay-bashing and race-baiting.

http://www.pollingreport.com/white.htm

 

Not across the board, but Bush scored significant wins in 2 of the 3 debates. Not so in 2004, where he was expected to win but has, according to the polls, significantly underperformed. In 2000, nothing was expected of him. He exceeded expectations and tooled Gore. In 2004, Kerry was ready for him and has, in the public's eye, wiped the floor with Bush.

Well, Bush won one of the three. I am truly shocked.

I'm still getting over the..."Rush has more class than...." comment.......

Sad that it is true.

-=Mike

[NoCalMike 0]

Well, Bush won one of the three. I am truly shocked.

I'm still getting over the..."Rush has more class than...." comment.......

Sad that it is true.

-=Mike

No, it's sad that you could ever possibly think it is true.

[Guest MikeSC]

Well, Bush won one of the three. I am truly shocked.

I'm still getting over the..."Rush has more class than...." comment.......

Sad that it is true.

-=Mike

No, it's sad that you could ever possibly think it is true.

Rush apologized.

 

Kerry and Edwards do not and Edwards heffer of a wife claimed that the Cheneys are ashamed of Mary's sexuality (which, mind you, there is NO reason for me to know her sexuality).

 

This ticket has sold its soul.

-=Mike

...If it had one...

[NoCalMike 0]

Rush apologized, because he insulted her, called her a Dog.

 

Kerry & Edwards did nothing of the sort.

[Guest MikeSC]

Rush apologized, because he insulted her, called her a Dog.

 

Kerry & Edwards did nothing of the sort.

Kerry & Edwards brought up somebody who had no business from being brought up --- and then Edwards' heffer claimed that the Cheneys are ashamed of their daughter.

-=Mike

[Guest whitemilesdavis]

I think it is a touchy subject that will not, and has not, affected the presidency.

 

For the democrats to go there was wrong. Kerry bringing it out of nowhere in the debate was obviously some sort of plan, and I just don't get it.

 

I'm as much for Kerry as anyone, but this isn't a point to defend him on.

[Your Paragon of Virtue 0]

But Kerry mentioned it not insulting anyone, he simply stated a fact. He didn't use it to insult anyone. Should I repeat that again, since some people won't let that go.

 

Bush brought up Kerry's wife's favour for abstinence. "In fact your wife voted for it too." Is that necessary to bring up his wife, his family? Does it mean anything or prove anything? So what if she voted for it how is that an issue? I'm not offended by it, and anyone who is is an idiot, just like anyone who thinks what Kerry brought up is worth mentioning again. Cheney is making this an issue by making it a focal point of interviews/speeches/whatever. Nobody really cares, since he didn't make fun of her or insult her. Kerry has *nothing* to apologize over.

 

The fact that you're comparing this to Rush calling Clinton's daughter a DOG shows how biased you are.

[Guest GreatOne]

But Kerry mentioned it not insulting anyone, he simply stated a fact. He didn't use it to insult anyone. Should I repeat that again, since some people won't let that go.

 

Bush brought up Kerry's wife's favour for abstinence. "In fact your wife voted for it too." Is that necessary to bring up his wife, his family? Does it mean anything or prove anything? So what if she voted for it how is that an issue? I'm not offended by it, and anyone who is is an idiot, just like anyone who thinks what Kerry brought up is worth mentioning again. Cheney is making this an issue by making it a focal point of interviews/speeches/whatever. Nobody really cares, since he didn't make fun of her or insult her. Kerry has *nothing* to apologize over.

And mentioning Mary Cheney is somehow equal to the mentioning the stance of possibly the next (but only if God turns out to be a complete dimwit) first lady?

 

The fact that you're comparing this to Rush calling Clinton's daughter a DOG shows how biased you are.

 

And any Kerry fanboys trying to justify him or John Jr.'s remarks--c'mon John, just outright say GW KILLED Christopher Reeve, can't knock you down any further on the idiot scale--aren't biased whatsoever, OK.......................

[Your Paragon of Virtue 0]

But Kerry mentioned it not insulting anyone, he simply stated a fact. He didn't use it to insult anyone. Should I repeat that again, since some people won't let that go.

 

Bush brought up Kerry's wife's favour for abstinence. "In fact your wife voted for it too." Is that necessary to bring up his wife, his family? Does it mean anything or prove anything? So what if she voted for it how is that an issue? I'm not offended by it, and anyone who is is an idiot, just like anyone who thinks what Kerry brought up is worth mentioning again. Cheney is making this an issue by making it a focal point of interviews/speeches/whatever. Nobody really cares, since he didn't make fun of her or insult her. Kerry has *nothing* to apologize over.

And mentioning Mary Cheney is somehow equal to the mentioning the stance of possibly the next (but only if God turns out to be a complete dimwit) first lady?

 

The fact that you're comparing this to Rush calling Clinton's daughter a DOG shows how biased you are.

 

And any Kerry fanboys trying to justify him or John Jr.'s remarks--c'mon John, just outright say GW KILLED Christopher Reeve, can't knock you down any further on the idiot scale--aren't biased whatsoever, OK.......................

Yeap, I'm biased, because I never defend GWB to all of my stupid hippie liberal university colleagues.

 

Oh wait I do.

 

I love how I'm biased when I am simply making a point, yet Mike isn't biased for playing the same side over and over and over again. It only makes sense that you'd be so quick to defend him. Since, you know....

 

EDIT: I just realised I never said anything about Kerry or Edwards talking about Reeve, yet you brought that up out of nowhere to call me a Kerry fanboy. Seeing as how you always veer off in your posts attacking something that's not there, I guess that can be expected.

[Guest GreatOne]

Go ahead, I haven't been called 'Mike's pet goat' for almost two weeks.

 

I mean it's like Kerry going almost an entire debate and mentioning HIS PLAN less than three times

 

EDIT: I never actually called you a Kerry fanboy, but if you wanna wear the shoe..................

[Your Paragon of Virtue 0]

Go ahead, I haven't been called 'Mike's pet goat' for almost two weeks.

 

I mean it's like Kerry going almost an entire debate and mentioning HIS PLAN less than three times

 

EDIT: I never actually called you a Kerry fanboy, but if you wanna wear the shoe..................

There was no point in bringing the Kerry Fanboy comment. AT ALL. It had no relevance, I gave you the benefit of the doubt and assumed that it was directed at me. As it stands, you're even worse off.

[Guest GreatOne]

Oh man my night is so WRECKED now.................

[Guest MikeSC]

But Kerry mentioned it not insulting anyone, he simply stated a fact. He didn't use it to insult anyone. Should I repeat that again, since some people won't let that go.

 

Bush brought up Kerry's wife's favour for abstinence. "In fact your wife voted for it too." Is that necessary to bring up his wife, his family

His wife gives speeches regularly.

 

Feel free to recite the volumes of Mary Cheney speeches.

Does it mean anything or prove anything? So what if she voted for it how is that an issue? I'm not offended by it, and anyone who is is an idiot, just like anyone who thinks what Kerry brought up is worth mentioning again.

Because the difference between somebody who is PUBLIC with their campaign role and somebody who is not is utterly beyond the comprehension of the knuckle-dragging set.

? Cheney is making this an issue by making it a focal point of interviews/speeches/whatever.

He likely assumed Edwards non-sequitur would be a one-time deal. He has since learned it's a planned Democratic strategy.

Nobody really cares, since he didn't make fun of her or insult her. Kerry has *nothing* to apologize over.

Except violating the rule of not bringing family into the debate when they are not campaigning.

The fact that you're comparing this to Rush calling Clinton's daughter a DOG shows how biased you are.

That you can't tell the difference is a condemnation of you.

-=Mike

[St. Gabe 0]

I think the Kerry comment and the Edwards Comment are on 2 way different levels. When Edwards said what he said the way he said it, directly to the VP and in an extremely condescending tone, I lost all respect I had for the man. I voted for Howard Dean in my primary, but John Edwards was my 2nd choice. He was charismatic, could speak well, and to be honest, reminded me of Clinton. Obviously I misjudged. The comment from Edwards felt slimy, and was a scumbag thing to say. It was just Creepy

 

The Kerry comment, on the other hand, was not directly addressed to President Bush or V.P. Cheney, and did a better Job of pointing out the hypocrisy of the administration. Not a good job, but it was more subdued so he didnt look like such a scum sucker.

 

As far as the question of if Homosexuality is a choice, maybe someone should have asked President Bush when he chose to be heterosexual. (anyone who watched Chris Matthews post-debate knows what I mean) That would have been an interesting thing to see, methinks.

[Justice 0]

I think the Kerry comment and the Edwards Comment are on 2 way different levels. When Edwards said what he said the way he said it, directly to the VP and in an extremely condescending tone, I lost all respect I had for the man. I voted for Howard Dean in my primary, but John Edwards was my 2nd choice. He was charismatic, could speak well, and to be honest, reminded me of Clinton. Obviously I misjudged. The comment from Edwards felt slimy, and was a scumbag thing to say. It was just Creepy

 

The Kerry comment, on the other hand, was not directly addressed to President Bush or V.P. Cheney, and did a better Job of pointing out the hypocrisy of the administration. Not a good job, but it was more subdued so he didnt look like such a scum sucker.

 

As far as the question of if Homosexuality is a choice, maybe someone should have asked President Bush when he chose to be heterosexual. (anyone who watched Chris Matthews post-debate knows what I mean) That would have been an interesting thing to see, methinks.

I agree to an extent. Edwards' use of it was much lower than Kerry's. Kerry's, though, didn't sound much better. His delivery of it was really... awkward and forced, I suppose is the best description, and that to me kinda came off as he was struggling with the question and searching for a decent thing to say. It didn't come off very genuinely, and frankly that matters a lot when you are talking about a subject.

 

Frankly, she shouldn't have been mentioned more than once, if at all, but the Kerry/Edwards campaign, and the ways she were were certainly not respectful to the Cheney family.

[Guest GreatOne]

Where's the hypocrisy? All Bush has said is he opposes gay marriage (and this just in, so has Kerry), he's not trying to 'exterminate the Mary Cheneys or Rob Halfords of the world for the good of humanity'

 

No hypocrisy here, carry on

[Guest MikeSC]

Where's the hypocrisy? All Bush has said is he opposes gay marriage (and this just in, so has Kerry), he's not trying to 'exterminate the Mary Cheneys or Rob Halfords of the world for the good of humanity'

 

No hypocrisy here, carry on

Honestly, if you want a decent comparison, the comments on Mary Cheney would be similar to, if given a question about health care, Bush or Cheney mentioning Mrs. Edwards' obvious weight problem.

-=Mike

...Obesity IS a health issue...

[2GOLD 0]

Other small detail

 

Rush was not running for President, he was being an asshole which is kind of a requirement for talk radio...plus she was a dog. No opinion there, the girl used to be ugly as sin.

 

Kerry and Edwards ARE running and they are bringing up something they have no business bringing up. If they were FOR gay marriage, sure bring it up. But to bring it up when she'd have no right to get married with Kerry/Edwards in office is pointless and shameful.

 

Least Rush came right out and said his true thoughts. Kerry and Edwards sound like backhanded homophobes who really want to come out and call her the D word but know they can't.

[jesse_ewiak 0]

She was also 12. But, I guess you didn't go through any awkward stages at all.

 

So, he mentionined the fact that Dick Cheney's daughter is openly lesbian. Why on earth would that fact make one less likely to vote for Bush-Cheney? The only possible reason is that these voters are bigots, and it is partly on that basis that the GOP is appealing to them. So, theye're catering to homophobes and don't mess with that! Just please don't tell me that the GOP is a tolerant or inclusive party. No big tent here. If you depend on bigots to win elections, and you pander to them, and rev them up by demonizing minorities, don't anybody to sympathize with you when you're caught red-handed.

 

After all, is Mary Cheney's homosexuality some sort of affliction? A horrible and ugly family tragedy like the death of John Edwards' son? The only "cheap and tawdry political trick" performed Wednesday night was the one turned by the Cheney parental units. It was they who used their daughter's sexuality as a weapon against John Kerry's sympathetic (and very general) remark.

 

I mean, the equation of gayness with some sort of embarrassing problem or, worse, some kind of affliction is just wacky. For people who believe this, of course Kerry was out of line. That's why Rove's base is so outraged. But if you don't believe this, it's no different than, say, if a candidate were to mention another candidate's son in the Marines. Or if, in a debate on immigration, a pro-immigrant candidate mentioned Kerry's immigrant wife. You have to regard homosexuality as immoral or wrong or shameful to even get to the beginning of the case against Kerr.

 

Plus, it's not like she's private or in the closet. Kerry and Edwards didn't "out" her."

 

She ran gay outreach for Coors, for pete's sake. She appears in public with her partner. Her family acknowledges this. She's running her dad's campaign! Whatever else this has to do with - and essentially, it has to do whether you approve of homosexuality or not - privacy is irrelevant.

[Guest MikeSC]

She was also 12. But, I guess you didn't go through any awkward stages at all.

 

So, he mentionined the fact that Dick Cheney's daughter is openly lesbian. Why on earth would that fact make one less likely to vote for Bush-Cheney?

Kerry and Edwards believe Bush's voters are so bigoted they won't vote for him due to this.

The only possible reason is that these voters are bigots, and it is partly on that basis that the GOP is appealing to them.

By providing, according to Kerry, the IDENTICAL stand on gay marriage?

So, theye're catering to homophobes and don't mess with that!

No, the Dems believe it --- but they believe anybody who doesn't vote for Kerry has problems.

Just please don't tell me that the GOP is a tolerant or inclusive party.

Facts bug you?

No big tent here. If you depend on bigots to win elections, and you pander to them, and rev them up by demonizing minorities, don't anybody to sympathize with you when you're caught red-handed.

Wow, you are as sharp as a bag of marshmallows.

After all, is Mary Cheney's homosexuality some sort of affliction?

It's just ironic that, apparently, the only lesbian the Dems know is Mary Cheney --- who supports Bush.

 

Then again, the only guy Kerry claims to be able to work with in a non-partisan manner, McCain, ALSO supports Bush.

A horrible and ugly family tragedy like the death of John Edwards' son? The only "cheap and tawdry political trick" performed Wednesday night was the one turned by the Cheney parental units. It was they who used their daughter's sexuality as a weapon against John Kerry's sympathetic (and very general) remark.

Before now, the consensus was that the family's are off-limits completely. The Dems chose to violate that rule to REPEATEDLY make Mary Cheney a campaign issue.

I mean, the equation of gayness with some sort of embarrassing problem or, worse, some kind of affliction is just wacky. For people who believe this, of course Kerry was out of line. That's why Rove's base is so outraged.

Just when you think the left has some class, somebody comes out and proves your belief wrong.

 

Congrats, Jesse.

But if you don't believe this, it's no different than, say, if a candidate were to mention another candidate's son in the Marines. Or if, in a debate on immigration, a pro-immigrant candidate mentioned Kerry's immigrant wife. You have to regard homosexuality as immoral or wrong or shameful to even get to the beginning of the case against Kerr.

 

Plus, it's not like she's private or in the closet. Kerry and Edwards didn't "out" her."

 

She ran gay outreach for Coors, for pete's sake. She appears in public with her partner. Her family acknowledges this. She's running her dad's campaign! Whatever else this has to do with - and essentially, it has to do whether you approve of homosexuality or not - privacy is irrelevant.

Out of curiosity, when the fuck has the VP ever had a campaign to run?

 

Her family acknowledges her sexuality and have tried to KEEP HER OUT OF THE LIMELIGHT, SINCE SHE CLEARLY DOES NOT WISH TO BE IN IT.

 

Shame the "inclusive" DNC can't respect that.

-=Mike

[Dr. Tyler; Captain America 0]

Feel free to recite the volumes of Mary Cheney speeches.

 

Mary Cheney is her father's campaign manager.

[Guest MikeSC]

Feel free to recite the volumes of Mary Cheney speeches.

 

Mary Cheney is her father's campaign manager.

And the speeches and public appearances she so regularly makes are...?

-=Mike

...And, again, when has a VP had a campaign manager?

[jesse_ewiak 0]

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/30/politics...d4bf0b9&ei=5070

 

Mary Cheney, the daughter and chief campaign manager of Vice President Dick Cheney, had just slipped out of the room at a Davenport, Iowa, town hall meeting last week when her father publicly acknowledged for the first time that she was openly lesbian and that he disagreed with the president's support for an amendment banning same-sex marriage.

 

So, ask Cheney. Her official position is director of vice presidential operations.