Championship question

[Taker666 0]

If the WWE title still carried the linage of the WCW title. the title would still be called the Undisputed title right?

 

The WWE title is just the old WWF title

 

the World Title, look and linage, is the old WCW title.

 

Its just more easier and more logical to follow it that way.

[Guest bigm350]

If the WWE title still carried the linage of the WCW title. the title would still be called the Undisputed title right?

 

The WWE title is just the old WWF title

 

the World Title, look and linage, is the old WCW title.

 

Its just more easier and more logical to follow it that way.

That's how Vince and the WWE look at it, for the most part.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

If the WWE title still carried the linage of the WCW title. the title would still be called the Undisputed title right?

 

The WWE title is just the old WWF title

 

the World Title, look and linage, is the old WCW title.

 

Its just more easier and more logical to follow it that way.

It might be easier, but it's not more logical, and here is why.

 

Let’s assume wrestling is real, the titles are real, and Raw and Smackdown really are two separate promotions.

 

A championship that is merged into another becomes part of that championship, for example the IC Title became part of the Raw World Title when they were merged. Now, because the Raw World Title is controlled by Raw, Raw is the only promotion that can really resurrect the IC Title and its lineage. Smackdown could bring out an IC Title belt and say that it is the IC Championship, but that title would have no lineage link to the old IC Title, because Smackdown had no control over the IC Championship when it was merged into the Raw World Title.

 

By the same token, when the Unified Title, of which the WCW World Title was half of, became the property of Smackdown, Raw, because it is a separate promotion, lost all rights as it pertains to the WCW World Title and its lineage, because it was not its property. Eric Bischoff might have brought out a copy of the big gold belt associate with the WCW World Title, and he might have even referenced it to the WCW World Title, but because Raw had no power at all over the WCW World Title or its lineage anymore, he had no rights to ‘take’ the WCW World Title lineage away from the WWE Title over on Smackdown. Therefore, the lineage Raw World Title only goes back to when it the championship was created on Raw, and the belt brought out of the suitcase.

[Guest bigm350]

Its wrestling. Its all predetermined. Title lineages, especially in today's WWE, should not be taken seriously.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

Its wrestling. Its all predetermined. Title lineages, especially in today's WWE, should not be taken seriously.

If the title lineage shouldn't be taken seriously, then why should the title itself be taken seriously ? If they don't care about a title, why should I, a paying customer, care about it enough to want to pay to see it defended ?

[Guest bigm350]

Its wrestling. Its all predetermined. Title lineages, especially in today's WWE, should not be taken seriously.

If the title lineage shouldn't be taken seriously, then why should the title itself be taken seriously ? If they don't care about a title, why should I, a paying customer, care about it enough to want to pay to see it defended ?

Good question. Since it seems most of the titles are treated like crap today, I don't think the WWE really cares about any of their titles except for the World belts.

[Exslade ZX 0]

Its wrestling. Its all predetermined. Title lineages, especially in today's WWE, should not be taken seriously.

If the title lineage shouldn't be taken seriously, then why should the title itself be taken seriously ? If they don't care about a title, why should I, a paying customer, care about it enough to want to pay to see it defended ?

That's not really the reason given anymore as to why people should buy a PPV anyways...so yea. It's usually, buy this PPV if you want to see 'so and so beat so and so's ass'. Occasionally...you could add, 'for the title' on the end of that, but most of the time, it's just the former.

[The Czech Republic 0]

THIS DISCUSSION MUST END

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

That's not really the reason given anymore as to why people should buy a PPV anyways...so yea. It's usually, buy this PPV if you want to see 'so and so beat so and so's ass'. Occasionally...you could add, 'for the title' on the end of that, but most of the time, it's just the former.

Titles, esepcially the World Title, should be made to seem important, because if all else fails angle/storyline wise, you can at least build things around the World Title. The trouble with doing that now, is there is nobody with any credibility at all to push as World Title contender. Everyone is either stale or has no credibility, thanks to poor booking.

 

And I'll wager dollars to donuts that we've been putting more thought into titles in this one thread, than almost anyone in WWE has in the last year.

[Lil' Bitch 0]

By the same token, when the Unified Title, of which the WCW World Title was half of, became the property of Smackdown, Raw, because it is a separate promotion, lost all rights as it pertains to the WCW World Title and its lineage, because it was not its property. Eric Bischoff might have brought out a copy of the big gold belt associate with the WCW World Title, and he might have even referenced it to the WCW World Title, but because Raw had no power at all over the WCW World Title or its lineage anymore, he had no rights to ‘take’ the WCW World Title lineage away from the WWE Title over on Smackdown. Therefore, the lineage Raw World Title only goes back to when it the championship was created on Raw, and the belt brought out of the suitcase.

 

Okay so what if Stephanie, the then-GM of Smackdown, agreed to give the lineage back to RAW? That her and Eric came to agreement about having 2 world champions?

[Mystery Eskimo 0]

Just a sidenote on the US title- the WCW US Title and WWE US Title are completely different things. No point trying to link them up.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

By the same token, when the Unified Title, of which the WCW World Title was half of, became the property of Smackdown, Raw, because it is a separate promotion, lost all rights as it pertains to the WCW World Title and its lineage, because it was not its property. Eric Bischoff might have brought out a copy of the big gold belt associate with the WCW World Title, and he might have even referenced it to the WCW World Title, but because Raw had no power at all over the WCW World Title or its lineage anymore, he had no rights to ‘take’ the WCW World Title lineage away from the WWE Title over on Smackdown. Therefore, the lineage Raw World Title only goes back to when it the championship was created on Raw, and the belt brought out of the suitcase.

 

Okay so what if Stephanie, the then-GM of Smackdown, agreed to give the lineage back to RAW? That her and Eric came to agreement about having 2 world champions?

It would have been a nice touch. It also could have set up some wrestlers jumping from Raw to SD under the guise of Bischoff trading them over in exchange for the rights to the WCW World Title. That might have even elevated said wrestlers in some way, because they could say they were worth a World title, and so deserve a World title shot on SD.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Isn't the whole point of lineage is to have a direct connection between champions?

[Slickster 0]

*DISCLAIMER: A belt is not a title. Raw has used the NWA/WCW/World belt, but I will argue why the current Raw title is the same title held by Booker T, Nash, et al.*

 

Let’s assume wrestling is real, the titles are real, and Raw and Smackdown really are two separate promotions.

Well, they're 2 parts of the same company, like the NL and the AL in baseball. This is why MLB can make rules affecting both leagues. But let's keep going...

 

A championship that is merged into another becomes part of that championship, for example the IC Title became part of the Raw World Title when they were merged.

True, see also the US Title becoming part of the IC Title in 2001.

 

Now, because the Raw World Title is controlled by Raw, Raw is the only promotion that can really resurrect the IC Title and its lineage.

Interesting theory, but IMO it doesn't hold up and I'll tell you why...

 

Smackdown could bring out an IC Title belt and say that it is the IC Championship, but that title would have no lineage link to the old IC Title, because Smackdown had no control over the IC Championship when it was merged into the Raw World Title.

Yes, but Smackdown brought back the US Title in June 2003. This was after the IC Title was returned to active use on Raw; how could SD! de-unify the US and IC Titles without Raw's consent? (And they *did* restore the original JCP/WCW US Title, BTW; that was made perfectly clear from day one.)

 

The answer is that the WWE's 2 brands presumably have (limited) control over titles beyond those unified on their own show. Smackdown needed a secondary title, so they de-unified the US and IC Titles to fill that gap.

 

but because Raw had no power at all over the WCW World Title or its lineage anymore, he had no rights to ‘take’ the WCW World Title lineage away from the WWE Title over on Smackdown.

You seem to forget that when the Undisputed Title was 'disputed' on 8/29/02, that was a breach of the brand extension itself; Stephanie McMahon 'had no rights to "take" the WCW World Title lineage' in the first place. Bischoff retaliated by de-unifying the World Title (called the WCW Title before 11/19/01) from the WWE Title so Raw could have its own World Title.

[Slickster 0]

Just a sidenote on the US title- the WCW US Title and WWE US Title are completely different things. No point trying to link them up.

Since the SD! during which the US Title Tournament was announced, it has been made perfectly clear that the current WWE US Title is the same US Title held by Sting, Slaughter, et al. However, in WWE records it is commonly referred to as a different era in order to delineate things for the marks. The WWE CW Title *is* the WCW CW Title, but look at Rey Misterio's bio and he is credited with them as 2 different titles. Otherwise, fans would be trying to see how he held the CW Title 8 times (he held it in WCW 6x, in WWE 2x). End of story.

[Lil' Bitch 0]

Good night, everybody!

[{''({o..o})''} 0]

If you're arguing wrestling lineage

and other title facts,

Just repeat to yourself "It's just a show,

I should really just relax."

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

If you're arguing wrestling lineage

and other title facts,

Just repeat to yourself "It's just a show,

I should really just relax."

And with an attitude like, it's no wonder the number of people willing to pay for WWE is well down.

[Mole 0]

People still watch WWE?

uh, yah!

Ohh I'm sorry. You don't have sex anymore, do you?

[Slickster 0]

If you're arguing wrestling lineage

and other title facts,

Just repeat to yourself "It's just a show,

I should really just relax."

"Shane?

MCMAHON!"

[Taker666 0]

I remember reading an article on Smackdown Magazine talking about the history of the US title. dating back to the NWA all the way to the WWE.

 

Anyways, If we arn't suppost to care about the WWE belts anymore. than I guess Chris Benoit or Eddie Guerrero winning the World titles didn't mean anything sence they're just props. or we wouldn't be hoping for Booker T to walk out of SS as WWE Champion. Championship belts are suppost to mean something or we wouldn't care who wins or whos contending for the titles. Hell, they wouldn't even exsist if they didn't mean anything.

[razazteca 0]

I thought Booker T vs Bradshaw was all about the Free Blackman who escaped the troubles of the South years ago to challenge the Man for the 40 acres and a mule.......the belt is just a trophy.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

I thought it was about a repressed homosexual lashing out at that inwhich he lusts for. Instead of dealing with these new feelings, he looks to destroy the thing that causes them. If he fails, he will have to run away and never return. If he wins... what happens when he discovers those feelings are still there? The belt, in this case, is just a fashion accessory.

[TheBigSwigg 0]

People still watch WWE?

uh, yah!

Ohh I'm sorry. You don't have sex anymore, do you?

The problem with your question is that it's likely he's never had sex to start with.

[USC Wuz Robbed! 0]

Actually the WWE may make references about the Raw title holding the WCW lineage, however that is not the case. In WWE's official records (as well as their old program guides), the Raw title's lineage began the night Triple H was awarded it. Hence HHH is truly the 1st champion of the Raw World Heavyweight Title. I have this confirmed.

[Art Sandusky 0]

Well, that's a relief.

[Lil' Bitch 0]

You also forget WWE likes to contradict themselves as they show the WCW title lineage in the Unforgiven 2002 intro when it is focused on HHH's title.

[The Czech Republic 0]

Well, that's a relief.

I feel dirty, Kotz made me laugh.

[Promoter 0]

If you're arguing wrestling lineage

and other title facts,

Just repeat to yourself "It's just a show,

I should really just relax."

Are you the new guy that was hired for the creative team on Smackdown?

I think you got the credentials they are looking for. That mindset has brought them never before seen success, yet they fire editors who look at all the inconsistencies in this "show". They don't bother try to stick with the sports exhibition approach because it's too much headaches to be consistent with the wrestling world and the real world in their view. Yet, they are trying to bring back kayfabe "somewhat". Confused? I'm sure they are too! Perhaps they are in another identity crisis as they seem to do every 2 years so. If only they could keep it so simple Anyways.....

 

Reading this whole thread was a headache. No wonder they are having trouble when even hardcore fans are confused over the "props". Linda Mcmahon once said in a conference that 2001's acquisition of wcw and implementation into storylines caused "creative confusion" and confused the fans who probably thought it was a chore to watch the "show".

 

This is what I feel the company really did here with the title lineages. They merged the wcw titles with the wwf counterparts in 2001 plain and simple. The problem comes with all the marlarky surrounding it. WCW was killed at Survivor Series 3 years ago, but the wcw title was defunct and to fix the situation Vince re-named the title "the world title" which is what Triple H is wearing now. Vince was allowed to do this since he "won" the battle for survival between the wrestling companies(and historically the wwe title was a regional title and wcw had the world title lineage*yes I know the whole mess there, but I think they unified the title between Sting/Flair in 94 around Hogan's arrival). In reality he can do this. You see even the "tv show" gives the explanation if they bother to follow through on it. Jericho held TWO titles because he was carrying two world championships at the time. Triple H even wore the same damn title when he became champion at WM 18. Flair awarded him a NEW BELT to represent the two titles on raw and smackdown(another attempt to make Triple H the undeniable superstar champion).

 

The belt was traded back and forth until Brock Lesnar took the title from The Rock. Triple H WAS the #1 contender of ALL WWE(that is how they were doing it in the prior months switching contenders between raw and smackdown) and Brock did not defend the title against Triple H causing a dispute. Brock went to smackdown, but as someone stated both promotions are still under the wwe umbrella. Now remember the undisputed title is actually two championships, but there was one belt representing it. Eric Bischofff brought back one half of the title to raw and handed it to Triple H and was able to do so under wwe law because he was the #1 contender of all wwe. Remember Taker went to smackdown and had to win a #1 contender's match to get a title shot against Brock Lesnar on smackdown. Triple H was the real #1 contender to said title. Once that title became stripped of its world championship status it needed its own #1 contender.

 

Now, to make Triple H's title have some credibility they had to link it to the lineage it had with Ric Flair and wcw/nwa. That is a reason why Flair was the first contender on its re-instatement. That is why they used pieces on Confidential to sell the credibility of the title along with merging the IC title with it in case people saw it as inferior to the traditional secondary title(remember it was rumoured that title was going to be given to Trips?). All this came off as confusing, but the fact is Trips' title is the world title from wcw/nwa. The reason being that the umbrella wwe owns the damn title to begin with. They use the same marketing with the cruiserweight and US titles and as someone said differentiate not to confuse fans by breaking up the different era of said titles. It all goes back to the purchase of wcw. Anyone thinks Vince would have a US title or World title ibeing promoted if he didn't buy wcw? He would just make up his own new title names like the European title or Lightheavyweight title(which is another sore eye with the J Crown just keeping the damn thing for decades*in North America the cruiserweight title is more respected along with the US title over the European title).

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

Bischoff did not take half of the Undisputed Title back, that belonged to Lesnar. So he created a NEW title and called it the World Title, and used the same physical belt as the World Title used in 2001. But the lineage of the WCW Championship and that World Title is in the WWE Championship.