Greatest American

[Twisted Intestine 0]

George W. Bush

 

Edit: Vince McMahon too!

 

Edit Again: Oh, and while we're on the topic, Charles Manson!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Relax guys, it was a joke. I personally have nothing against Bush, McMahon, or your country.

[Murmuring Beast 0]

Hogan.

[Guest Crazy Dan]

Well I finally got some free time, so I thought I throw some names that I admire in US History, I am sure I am missing many, but these jump out to me

 

Ben Franklin

George Washington,

Jefferson

Lincoln - Did what was right, of course now a days, his image might not even won hime one primary, but thank god for only print media so people actually had to read what he had to say, instead of getting 10 second sound bite.

Fredrick Douglas -

Harriet Tubman

Carnegnie - Not so much for his business practices, but for his last years when he gave much of his money to many charities, thereby redeming himself, but out of all the robber barons, he to me was the least bad.

Teddy Rosevelt - one of my Favorite Republicans, who saw the need for perserving our national forrests.

FDR - Proved you can be president, even in a wheel chair. Tried to get this country out of a Depression, did not work. Might have blown the warnings about Pearl Harbor, but what he did afterwards made him great. "Fear is Fear itslelf" is one of my favorite lines. And he helped us through the war, even though it killed him and brought about the two term limits, he showed he loved his country.

Thomas Edison - Greatest American Inventor

Martin Luther King Jr. - Free at last... Ghandi's teaching he used to help bring necessary change so that all men are equal,

Harry Truman (one of my favorite Presidents) - The Marshall Plan was a key plan that helped save much of Europe from becomming Commie, and the money was given for free. Not bad for someone who lose to "Dewey"

 

Honarable Mention: Might have reached this level, but not quite:

 

Robert Kennedy - Sorry Richard Nixon, if RFK had not been assassinated, you would have lost a second time to Kennedy. And maybe the war in Vietnam is realized earlier that it can't be won and we end it. Thereby Cambodia and Loas doen't get bombed. And maybe the Khumir Rouge doesn't take power. I don't know if Kennedy would have been great, but as Nixon turned out, I doubt no Watergate happens. I think he would have been great, but fate intervined, and of course Ed is the one who lives. Life sucks sometimes.

 

JFK- The Bay of Pigs was a disaster and if that was what happened, then his presidency would make him not on my list. But the Cuban Missle Crisis was his greatest moment. JFK and his staff took a gamble and it worked, they didn' t start a war and let the USSR remove the missles. Imagine if this was today and a bunch of Hawks were trying to figure this one out. "Well sir, we need to either nuke them." "But what about waiting this one out?" "Commie Bastard" "You must hat the USA" (all in good fun) But as much as Nixon might have been screwed in the 60 election, I trully feel he would have launched the missles, just a hunch. And finally, the fact that so many mourned his death, shows how much he was beloved and it is shame he never got another term. But I feel he was great.

 

Eisenhowser - Good president for a post WWII. Very Popular, might not have been his most favorite means to spend retirement, but served with honor and the country boomed. The Korean War was pointless in the long run, McArthur I am sure designed a new dartboard with his picture on it, but I am glad he saw what the results of the nukes had and why they should never be used. And his warning about the Militiristic-Compound is very eiry and he was right.

 

Dishonarable Mention

 

Joe McCarthy - The poster boy of hiding behind the biggest kid in class while you spew accusations and then refuse to back them up. Not only made many citizens mistrust each other, but the Un-American Activities Committees really destroyed many lives. Sure there might have been spies, but newsflash, we have spies in every country as well, even our allies have spies on us. And the fact McCarthy used the Senate floor to use the Drudge style of reporting, throw as much crap against the wall and what ever sticks, accuse as being a Communist. You attended one meeting, you were a commie. Of course I don't remember Communism being banned by the Constitution in main document or Ammendments, but I guess that doesn't matter. We really got Paranoid over this Commie thing. And I believe Communism is a failed theory, but to think that all of the sudden the Pinkos are going to take over is paranoid. Of course it could have been the booze he used to guzzle all the time, but I am not accusing him of being a drunk at all. I have no respect for this man, who made baseless claims, that sometimes were right, but mostly wrong. And then having people rat you out to save your own hide is disgusting. I am so glad this nimrod decided to finally shoot his mouth off at the President, which finally shut him up and had retire in disgrace. No Anne Coulter, this is not a hero, this is an example of fear mongering and not presenting proof. This man is a drunk and my all time least favorite Senator of all time. If he had shown his list and more proof then it is a different story. But why do I feel his list had nada on it and if it was viewed, it would have shown stick figures or a bottle of booze he was hoping to polish. Funny thing is, so when did the Commies finally take over again? Oh they didn't, which means McCarthy was a drunk, paranoid, and completely wrong.

 

Rush Limbaugh - Only for his "All drug users should be in jail".... and then his maid is busted buying illegal drugs. So Rush, when will you be leaving for jail... oh wait, you are using the double standard card, great. Count me as someone who will change the channel when his voice is heard.

 

Michael Savage - for his classy remake how he wish Clinton had died, but I guess hell was full. Man, if I had made a joke, replacing Clinton with Reagan, I would be crucified. But not Clinton. Not only was that not funny, it was uncalled for. Like/Dislike Clinton, anytime one goes in for heart surgery, I only hope for the best and speedy recovery. That line was disgusting and in poor taste and for that you are a Troll, who I am sure you listners think is the funniest line ever. Of course idiots also laugh at old ladies falling down stairs, but hey anything to "Shock". Here is somethning new to try, class. Man I will be glad when the phase of jocks like this run its course.

 

Tom Delay- Not so much a bad American, but I do find it funny how he has been found to broken three times rules ethics by a panel of non partisan members. Has been indicted and yet somehow changed the rule they put in 1993 that covers what he just did. This rule was directed to make the Democrats look bad, and well the guy in question was wrong (name?), by writing this rule that would have anyone step down in cases like this. Well I guess when you control both Houses and the President, I guess changing the rules is ok to make you look like hipporcrit. At least step down until your name is cleared at least. You know, actually practice what you preach. And yes the prosecuter in the case is Democrat, but he has a record of going after Democrats more than Republicans. So Tom Delay is not a bad American, but this action is such a double standard being exemplified by the GOP. If this was Democrat, I would feel the same way. In this case, he has been caught three times to be in violation. This is number 4. So thank you Delay for showing us liberals that Neo Cons such as your self are just as corruptable as the Democrats. I mean, I know he has the nickname the hammer, but this is ridiculous and makes the instance hypocritical. (Beware of becomming to powerful. Our political system is like pendulumm, no matter how hard you push it one way, eventually it will swing back. And now Fox News, Conservative Radio, or Condescending books by Neo Con Anne Coulter (why is she so pissed off anyways?) can stop it. For example, look at 1950's very conservative... and then it swung back to the left. So enjoy your moment, but events like this can build up. When the people see corruption and double standards, that can change how they feel. Personally, Delay should step down until he clears his name, that would be the fair thing to do. And that is what the GOP law signed in 1993 calls for. I guess changing the rules to stay in the game is ok at this point. Of course when I did that a risk, my brother slugged me. Sorry to make this into a rany about Delay, but I feel there are many great people in this country. Its just the bottom dweelers are scum who are not. And if anyone can explain the reason for this rule change and please don't say because the Prosecuter is a Democrat. I want to know why Delay is allowed to keep his post when he obviously has a problem with ethics.

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

Elvis. Seriously.

[kkktookmybabyaway 0]

Franklin Delenor Roosevelt.

Delano

 

Pet peeve.

Which is why I always say "FDR," and that's who I pick in regards to this thread, followed by Washington and Lincoln.

 

*prepares to get flamed and be called a commie by redbaron51...*

[Guest Cerebus]

Washington is def. up there, but Jefferson, Hamilton, and Adams deserve a nod from our post-revolutionary days. Andrew Jackson helped bring democracy to the people, and Lincoln fough like hell to preserve our Union. FDR, Eisenhower (more for his time as Supreme Commander of Allied forces in WW2 than his time as president), JFK, Reagan are all on my Presidents list.

 

Non president would go to Stephen Decatur, Robert E. Lee, Douglas MacArthur, George Patton, Martin Luther King Jr., Muhammed Ali, Bob Dylan, and probably a couple more I need to think about.

[Big Ol' Smitty 0]

Political: Jefferson

 

Non-political: Jackie Robinson

[Guest BDC]

I'd support Washington wholeheartedly, mainly for the reasons that were listed at the bottom of page one: the man turned down power at every turn, he didn't want power. The more I learn about him, the more impressed I am.

 

Lincoln? No question. Those two are standouts in history for a reason.

 

CrazyDan, if you're going to list off "Dishonorable Mentions" then at least try to make your bias a little less apparent. McCarthy is fine, I agree, but attack Rush and Savage for things that pale in comparison to other actions in the history of the US is pathetic.

 

Tom Delay- Not so much a bad American, but I do find it funny how he has been found to broken three times rules ethics by a panel of non partisan members

 

Then why include him? There are times to grind your ax and this isn't the discussion for them. You want bad Americans?

 

Nathan Bedford Forrest.

 

Jackson's unlawful (he ignored the Supreme Court and the Constitution) movement and subsequent killing of millions of Native Americans.

 

People that, to this day, deny the existance of the holocaust.

 

Warren Harding as the absolute biggest disgrace to the Presidency.

 

Don't sit there and talk about political commentators being the dishonorables of our country, get some perspective.

 

I'm proud and ashamed, each fourth of July

You've got to know the truth before you say that you've got pride.

-"'Merican" by The Descendents

[B. Brian Brunzell 0]

Martin Luther King and FDR.

[godthedog 0]

robert johnson. the ideal role model for me, the ideal role model for america.

[kkktookmybabyaway 0]

CrazyDan, if you're going to list off "Dishonorable Mentions" then at least try to make your bias a little less apparent.

Oh sweet Jesus, nobody better bitch about my so-called flame-baiting/trolling ever again after that post. I didn't even read that post until it was pointed out...

[Guest Anglesault]

Franklin Delenor Roosevelt.

Delano

 

Pet peeve.

Which is why I always say "FDR,"

I never fully understood "Delenor." My only theories are a) People kind of combine Franklin and Eleanor's names or b) People say (Especially up here in New York) "Franklin Delano Roosevelt" so quickly and in such a way that the end of Delano and the beginning of Roosevelt get mixed together. "franklindelanoroosevelt"

Edited November 27, 2004 by Anglesault

[Vern Gagne 0]

The Wright brothers deserve mention. The invention of the airplane is one of the most important moments in human history. Think of the rule it's played both good and bad.

 

James Madison for being the driving force behind the Constitution.

[Vern Gagne 0]

edit.

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

Along those same lines, Henry Ford deserves a definite mention. The mass production of the automobile was the key invention of the 20th Century. It opened up the modern world, by putting the ability to go wherever you want in a relatively short amount of time in the hands of the common man.

[Guest BDC]

I'll agree that the airplane and automobile are important and were great innovations, but I'll argue for the establishment of the US and fighting for civil rights above them.

[2GOLD 0]

Robert E. Lee

 

General in many wars before the Civil War, was one of the early voices urging for his southern soldiers and those in the South to be humble and try to bring the country back together, ended up penniless before becoming President of Washington college.

 

Lost his American citizenship because of his role in the war, didn't became an American Citizen again until 1970 when it was restored by Gerald Ford.

 

Despite many thinking Lee was the leader of a racist rebellion, he wasn't any of the such and could be considered one of the early pioneers of civil rights for his role in a Virigina church.

 

Ok...rip me apart.

[Lord of The Curry 0]

MLK or Jefferson.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

I wouldn't rip that apart. Lee was generally a wise general who chose the love of his state over the love of his country. Similar to our founding fathers, except Lee wound up on the losing side.

[The Czech Republic 0]

FDR - Proved you can be president, even in a wheel chair.

He wasn't handicapped, he was handi-capable! (No wait, he wasn't really capable either.)

 

Tried to get this country out of a Depression, did not work.  Might have blown the warnings about Pearl Harbor, but what he did afterwards made him great.

So he screwed up the New Deal, he screwed up Pearl Harbor, you didn't even MENTION court packing, and he's one of the best...why? "Okay, so he MIGHT have been a dictator at heart, but..."

 

Robert Kennedy - Sorry Richard Nixon, if RFK had not been assassinated, you would have lost a second time to Kennedy.  And maybe the war in Vietnam is realized earlier that it can't be won and we end it.  Thereby Cambodia and Loas doen't get bombed.  And maybe the Khumir Rouge doesn't take power.  I don't know if Kennedy would have been great, but as Nixon turned out, I doubt no Watergate happens.

Sorry Crazy Dan, if Joe Sr. didn't make things happen in Chicago and West Virginia, Kennedy wouldn't have been elected in the first place. And maybe it's "Khmer." I also doubt there would have been Watergate under RFK, probably because the Democrats wouldn't infiltrate their own headquarters.

 

JFK was a hack. I'm not gonna bother quoting it. As for McCarthy:

 

We really got Paranoid over this Commie thing.  And I believe Communism is a failed theory, but to think that all of the sudden the Pinkos are going to take over is paranoid.

however

Harry Truman (one of my favorite Presidents) - The Marshall Plan was a key plan that helped save much of Europe from becomming Commie, and the money was given for free.

 

Yeah not like it was spreading or anything...

 

Of course it could have been the booze he used to guzzle all the time, but I am not accusing him of being a drunk at all. 

This man is a drunk and my all time least favorite Senator of all time.

Oh they didn't, which means McCarthy was a drunk, paranoid, and completely wrong.

 

I think we're done here.

[Vyce 0]

Jackson's unlawful (he ignored the Supreme Court and the Constitution) movement and subsequent killing of millions of Native Americans.

 

Which is why he shouldn't even come CLOSE to being considered one of the greatest Americans.

 

Sorry, I kind of take this one personally. My maternal ancestors are Georgia Cherokees, who specifically got laid waste to by Jackson and his policies. The man was responsible for the Trail of Tears, which is the closest thing the American government has ever done to state-sanctioned genocide.

 

I agree with the inclusion of Robert E. Lee, though. Probably one of the (if not THE greatest) military minds this country ever produced, and in general a good and honest man who's memory has been somewhat besmirched by history revisionists simply because he fought for the wrong side in the war. Wasn't Lee really something of an abolitionist himself? Though he fought for the South, I know that he was no real fan of slavery.

[2GOLD 0]

I agree with the inclusion of Robert E. Lee, though. Probably one of the (if not THE greatest) military minds this country ever produced, and in general a good and honest man who's memory has been somewhat besmirched by history revisionists simply because he fought for the wrong side in the war. Wasn't Lee really something of an abolitionist himself? Though he fought for the South, I know that he was no real fan of slavery.

 

Lee was interesting. He wasn't a fan of slavery, however he was very firm in his believe that bringing people from Africa to the USA wasn't a bad thing when it first happened.

 

He wanted equal and better treatment and really had no stance on slavery. He didn't like it but he also didn't feel the government had the right to tell people not to do it if their state said it was ok.

 

However by fighting for the south, he was labeled a racist and many of the things he did after to further civil rights went unnoticed.

[Guest BDC]

Vyce, that's exactly why I put him where I did.

 

Basically, in one fell swoop, the guy that took elections to the masses damn near destroyed the system of checks and balances and committed genocide. He does NOT get my favor, no matter how big his cheese wheel was.

 

Lee was the only man to graduate West Point with no demerits, he never owned slaves and had motives of protecting his homeland. Basically, he was a good guy, but ended up on the wrong side.

[Vern Gagne 0]

On a similiar note to Robert E. Lee is Thomas "Stonewall" Jackson. Considered by many experts to be a better battle field commander, Jackson led the confederacy to several victories in the early years of the Civil War. he was KIA by one of his own men near Chancellorsville in 1863. Like Lee, Jackson was against slavery and very religious man who remained loyal to Virgnia.

[2GOLD 0]

Correct me if I'm wrong, James Longstreet was also against slavery and became a Republican following the Civil War.

 

If that is right, then all three major leaders of the rebel army were against slavery. Yet all three are considered racist monsters because of the side they fought on.

[Guest Crazy Dan]

Sorry if my biases came out in the dishonarable mention, that was not what I was shooting for, honest. I trully dislike Limbaugh for his comments about how all illegal drug users should be arrested, yet he was doing the same thing that he was condeming in his radio rants. I just didn't appreciate his double standards and by his standards, he should be thrown in jail, by his standards.

 

As for Savage, I was offended by his Clinton comments. If I had said the same thing about Reagan, I would be crucified. Savage to me sometimes goes for so much shock, that he forgets how poor taste it comes off as. Like or hate Clinton, he had a heart attack and I hope he makes a comeback, as no one that young should die from the disease. And I feel that Clinton deserves some decencent respect about his heart condition, love or hate. Savage's comments were distasteful and in very poor taste. That is why he gets dishonarable mention.

 

If you want me to point someone out from the Democrats, how about Janet Reno, who was incompetant and f'd up many situations, making the US look bad. She was a terrible choice for the Attorney General, but at least Will Farrell had comedy material for about 8 years.

 

Or how about Robert Byrd. He was a KKK member. That alone makes me question the idiocy of West Virginia. He shows to me that he at one point viewed black people as lower than low. And Edward Kennedy should retire and go away. He is a poster boy for term limits (along with Thurman and Helms). And I hated David Duke for the exact same reason, unfortunately I don't live in WV, so I really can't vote him out. But he is me least favorite Democrat.

 

And I feel that RFK, which had nothing to do with 1960, RFK would have beaten Nixon easily, in my opinion. And maybe he would have done terrible, but we all saw what Nixon did. Unfortunately he never got the chance to show what he could do. But I don't consider him a great American, I just feel that he had the potential to be. And being how Nixon turned out (I thought the China visit was a good thing) and the mistrust that came with Watergate, which might explain why many of my parents generation distrust the government as much as they do. And I also disliked how Nixon kept trying to win in Vietnam, when it clearly was unwinneable, for longer than it should, but who knows, but we all can see what happened with Nixon's continued futile efforts.

 

And as for McCarthy, I find the man to be an example of letting someone run their mouth, throw accuations around like they were nothing. And when he was asked to name his list, well guess who hid on the Senate Floor. So here is a man who could throw the Commie label around, yet I am really interesting to see how many names where on that list that were even credible. Of course, since I am liberal, if someone really wants to be a Commie, more power to them. I can guarantee that they won't win jack. McCarthy to me played on fear mongering and bullying. And I am glad he was dumb enough to believe that he could throw that label at Eisenhower, becuase that finally shut that load mouth up. Yu might disagree and think McCarthy should be held in a better light, but I study him enought to see that he used the Commie label to make a name for himself. And the fact he retired disgraced was deserved. If you are going to throw accusations like that around, be ready to show some proof and not hide under the Senate. That is why I think he is one of the most despicable Senators ever.

 

FDR - not perfect, I will agree, and he did some bad things, but there is something that I admire about the man. And he did rally the US during WWII. And he tried many things to try to get out of the mess made from the 20's. I think they were valient attempts, but it was war that was what got the US out of the recession. But he was a leader. And I only brought the wheel chair up as a means to show that physical limitations can still mean you can achieve your dreams. And he never used that as an excuse. I will agree about the loading of the Supreme court like he did, he was wrong. But overall I still consider him great and one of the greatest Democrats every.

 

Truman - Was one of my favorite Presidents. The Marshall plan helped rebuilt much of Western Europe by giving money away, which helped rebuild many parts of Europe which became part of Nato. Left undone, more Communism regimes might have taken over. And his choice to drop the bomb, as bad as nukes are, showed why they should never be used ever again. Some will disagree, but I feel he is an underated president. I am missing many parts, but I do feel he was a great American and he had the balls to stand up to McCarthy... sorry two nukes dropped is enough. And He helped the country transfer over to the Eisenhower years.

 

And I forgot General Robert Lee. Great General and fought for his home, even when he neve owned any slaves, or I am sure never believed in slavery. If he had the resources of the Union, it would not have been close. A man of principle and fought for his home. Was one of our countries greatest military minds, who fought with honor and surrender with honor.

[Vern Gagne 0]

Correct me if I'm wrong, James Longstreet was also against slavery and became a Republican following the Civil War.

 

If that is right, then all three major leaders of the rebel army were against slavery. Yet all three are considered racist monsters because of the side they fought on.

Many people in the confederacy were against slavery. Only 10% actually owned slaves. Most sided with the south because of states rights.

 

Another thing. I've read that Nathan Bedford Forest didn't form the KKK to terrorize black citizens. Once the KKK took that path, Forest left the organization.

[Guest BDC]

Dan, I said what I said b/c you're putting those people up as dishonorable up against people we're holding up as greatest American, namely making them the worst American.

 

No. Not even close. Byrd, Limbaugh, Savage, even Fat Mikey, none of them compare.

[Vern Gagne 0]

So here is a man who could throw the Commie label around, yet I am really interesting to see how many names where on that list that were even credible. Of course, since I am liberal, if someone really wants to be a Commie, more power to them. I can guarantee that they won't win jack.

Judging by the Venona papers enough. Alger Hiss, Harry Hopkins, the Rosenburghs, people working for the Manhattan Project. McCarthy was just a horrible person to bring fourth the communist threat.

[The Mandarin 0]

Elvis, Pete Rose or the inventor of the slot machine.