That wacky Joey Styles

[Guest Loss]

Of all the things written about TNA on a daily basis that baffle me, this is somewhere at the top of the list, as Joey Styles shows that he has no concept of what works in wrestling and what doesn't.

 

First of all, it's never a good sign when a wrestling company has to start telling their fanbase that they don't understand their product. It didn't forecast good things for WCW, nor is it for the modern WWE. TNA is yet another example of this happening.

 

I guess it would be beyond him to realize that Kevin Nash and Jeff Jarrett headlined some of the worst-drawing PPVs in wrestling history in 2000, so in 2005, when their names mean even less than they did then, they're not going to suddenly draw money.

 

I would have e-mailed him all of this, but he doesn't leave a way to contact him.

 

There are a few things he doesn't understand:

 

1. Kevin Nash is not a draw, nor has he EVER been a draw. There are about ten years worth of numbers and facts and figures to back that up, but I guess you can't blame a promoter for trying. Actually, you can, but I'm being nice. Nash v Jarrett didn't exactly rock the world in 2000 as a feud, despite hype on TBS and TNT, a larger overall wrestling audience, and each wrestler having more relevance to the big picture than he does now. So why would it be worth trying five years later?

 

2. Kevin Nash jumped to WWE in 2002 and made no impact at all. They tried to push him hard multiple times, but physically, he couldn't cut it and he couldn't wrestle the style that was then expected of top guys. He was getting almost no reaction at all by the time he lost the hair match to Jericho and he was actively drawing boos in his absymal feud with HHH earlier in the year.

 

3. Jeff Jarrett is NOT the type of person to make your promotion look major league. If anything, his legacy is that of the guy that both WCW and the WWF gave huge pushes to in attempts to get him over, all of which failed. WWF gave him his own MUSIC VIDEO and had him unseat the popular IC champ Razor Ramon, and he still went nowhere. WCW tried leeching him off of Ric Flair and feuding him with top guys, and they ended up releasing him because he was getting such a negative reaction at the time. WWF tried a complete makeover, a shoot interview, a resurrection of the Double J gimmick, a haircut, a valet, an over tag team partner in Owen Hart and multiple runs with the IC title and none of it worked. He only slightly got heat when he was put in a program with Chyna. And Austin was expected to work a program with this guy? Please, he would have brought Austin down with him. The most success he ever had as a top guy was in WCW from 1999-2001, and that's because he was surrounded by old farts, lost causes and wrestlers who were sabotaged through bad booking, and he failed to turn around business in the slightest there.

 

4. Until TNA starts taking some risks, they're going to be seen as WWE-lite. That's just the way it is. Putting the title on someone like Monty Brown or AJ Styles will not make them look minor league if they handle it properly. They need to hire a publicist, and the publicist needs to be hired with the intent of cross-promoting the TNA-created stars as much as possible. Sure, guys like Nash and Hall and Jarrett are fine to have around for nostalgia, but building around them when they weren't even worth being built around in their primes? Yeesh.

 

5. He mentions Diamond Dallas Page here. I'm a huge fan of Page, but the fact is that Page is an old man. I haven't seen him work in some time, but if he's at the level he was even three years ago, he's still a good worker. Page has name recognition and can go. He didn't exactly draw money programmed against Jarrett either, but he can at least wrestle at a passable level that Nash can't.

 

Most of TNA's buys at this point are going to come from whatever fanbase they have on the Internet. That's the nature of being a small dog with no primetime national television exposure to sell their product. They need to stop insulting those fans who could potentially buy their PPVs by telling them they don't understand how wrestling works and instead work on catering to them. Having Jeff Jarrett on top is EXACTLY like WWE pushing HHH too hard, and that's the sort of comparisons TNA should be looking to avoid at all costs.

[Crimson Platypus 0]

Having Jeff Jarrett on top is EXACTLY like WWE pushing HHH too hard, and that's the sort of comparisons TNA should be looking to avoid at all costs.

This is my biggest problem with TNA. It's the EXACT same thing (well, son-in-law/son but yeah). At least HHH is good in the ring. Jarrett is horrible.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

Joey Styles lost what little credibility he had with me when he claimed Coach could draw money if he was trained as a wrestler.

[Ripper 0]

Joey Styles lost what little credibility he had with me when he claimed Coach could draw money if he was trained as a wrestler.

well...the guy can play a heel persona pretty well, has a look. Its a posibility.

[Guest Coffey]

I have to admit, Joey Styles didn't say anything in that very brief article that I didn't agree with. At least somewhat. I see where he is coming from and understand what he's saying. Obviously, he has a point. I could see how people could argue his points and try to point out numbers and whatnot. In the end, however, he's right. At least I think so.

[Ripper 0]

I think he is very right.

[Guest Loss]

I have to admit, Joey Styles didn't say anything in that very brief article that I didn't agree with. At least somewhat. I see where he is coming from and understand what he's saying. Obviously, he has a point. I could see how people could argue his points and try to point out numbers and whatnot. In the end, however, he's right. At least I think so.

Please just answer one question:

 

Why would Jeff Jarrett or Kevin Nash draw in TNA when they couldn't draw in WCW or WWE? Very simple question.

[Guest Coffey]

They won't. Joey Styles didn't expect them too though. He never said he did. Nash & Jarrett never have and never will draw...but people know who they are, which was Styles point. People are like "I know him" so they check it out. Then people like Monty and AJ should keep them around.

[MARTYEWR 0]

What happens then, if even the hardcore fans say, "I know those guys, Jarrett and Nash. Never cared for them. I won't order the PPV this time." That's what Loss is trying to get at, I think.

[razazteca 0]

So bringing in WWF/WCW has beens as champions to hold down the home grown TNA talent is a good thing and will draw money?

 

And I'm still waiting for some TNA DVDs to be sold in stores, I could careless about the toys and video games.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

What happens then, if even the hardcore fans say, "I know those guys, Jarrett and Nash. Never cared for them. I won't order the PPV this time." That's what Loss is trying to get at, I think.

And those hardcore fans make up 99.99% of the TNA audience.

[Guest Loss]

What happens then, if even the hardcore fans say, "I know those guys, Jarrett and Nash. Never cared for them. I won't order the PPV this time." That's what Loss is trying to get at, I think.

You get me.

 

 

Lots of people know who lots of wrestlers are, but that doesn't necessarily ensure that they're going to translate into anything useful. If you look at it on a bigger scale outside of wrestling, Brad Pitt is one of the biggest names in Hollywood, and his name means shit at the box office.

[razazteca 0]

Maybe Joey Styles side is: the fans who say "OMG the NWO IS INVADING....and OMG JEFF HARDY IS SO HOT!" are the new fans who pay $30 for the PPVs.

[Guest Coffey]

My understanding is that he wasn't talking about the "smart" fanbase. I thought that was acknowledged when he said no wrestling company can survive with just the internet fans.

 

From then on, I was reading it as if he was talking about non-internet fans. Those are the people that would be like "Hey, I remember Nash. He beat Goldberg!"

 

Maybe a lot of them didn't watch WWE recently to see Nash either. Afterall, back when Nash was beating Goldberg, WWF (not WWE) was on USA not TNN/Spike TV.

 

I'm not saying people will pay to see Nash. They might check out iMPACT when they recognize a couple of dudes though. No one in wrestling is drawing right now. At least not in the states. Not in WWE, not in TNA. So saying Nash isn't a draw doesn't mean shit. If people know him, that helps. I don't know why a bunch of fucking fans on a message forum give a flying fuck about drawing anyway. It's not like TNA is signing your goddamn checks.

 

If Monty Brown or AJ Styles impress those new people tuning in on iMPACT, they might order the PPV to see the new guys. Nash, was that fans foot in the door.

 

That's how I looked at it.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

Do TNA even have any non-internet fans ?

[Guest Loss]

My understanding is that he wasn't talking about the "smart" fanbase. I thought that was acknowledged when he said no wrestling company can survive with just the internet fans.

I'm thinking in greater terms than Internet fans too. The thing is, though, that right now, that's probably 70% or more of TNA's fanbase. Insulting them by telling them they don't understand how wrestling works is only going to make them less likely to order the shows.

 

From then on, I was reading it as if he was talking about non-internet fans. Those are the people that would be like "Hey, I remember Nash. He beat Goldberg!"

 

Maybe a lot of them didn't watch WWE recently to see Nash either. Afterall, back when Nash was beating Goldberg, WWF (not WWE) was on USA not TNN/Spike TV.

 

RAW gets tons of advertising and is the centerpiece of Spike TV. Nash was pushed hard. They would have known he was there, and they still didn't come out to see him really. Now he's in TNA making more money than he's worth and they have it in their minds that he's going to help them when he's not going to help them at all.

 

I'm not saying people will pay to see Nash. They might check out iMPACT when they recognize a couple of dudes though. No one in wrestling is drawing right now. At least not in the states. Not in WWE, not in TNA. So saying Nash isn't a draw doesn't mean shit.

 

Considering the amount of money Nash is making, people who make that money are usually expected to deliver results. If they don't expect Nash to draw in new viewers, it's probably not a good idea to put him in PPV main events and pay him $5000 per appearance.

 

If people know him, that helps. I don't know why a bunch of fucking fans on a message forum give a flying fuck about drawing anyway. It's not like TNA is signing your goddamn checks.

 

Nice attitude. Maybe, just maybe, because almost all of us *want* an alternative and would love to see TNA or any other group shape up and become that alternative, and if they have headliners that aren't drawing, they're just one more company that's eventually going to go out of business competing with WWE.

 

Also, for argument's sake, if we put aside the whole "business" standpoint and just look at it from a fan's point of view, Kevin Nash is a has been who brings absolutely nothing to the table.

 

ECW had more success than TNA has had, and they didn't rely on any former WWF or WCW headliners to get that success. Terry Funk was the closest thing, and he was only a part-timer. That's why ECW lasted eight years and why all the other big/small companies have lasted not even half that time, or not even a year in some cases.

 

If Monty Brown or AJ Styles impress those new people tuning in on iMPACT, they might order the PPV to see the new guys. Nash, was that fans foot in the door.

 

If Nash had ever brought new wrestling fans in, you might have a point. I wouldn't be having this argument with you if Hogan was the wrestler in question, and I think just as much (read: little) of him as I do Nash, but I realize that he is one of the best chances they have of making something out of whatever exposure they get because he's the biggest star in wrestling history.

[Some Guy 0]

The problem with guys like Nash and Page (most non-hardcore fans wouldn't even recognize Jarrett as a World Champ level guy) is the problem that the WWF ran into with Hogan, with the main difference being that Hogan is a legend who people wanted to see (for a short time). People would flip through the channels see Hogan on Raw or SD! and say "Jesus! He's still around?" Then they'll watch for a few minutes and say "Jesus! he's still doing the same shit he did in the 80s only not as well and man, is he old!"

Nash and Page wouldn't even get the few minutes. They are not stars anymore. The death of WCW and the way WWE used Page killed any drawing abilities he ever had (which wasn't much in the first place) and Nash never drew on his own, the nWo drew with him as a major part of it, but Nash never did.

 

Jarrett is just a joke. The guy is looked upon by the fanbase at large as an IC tile level guy with no charisma. His world title runsin WCW are largely forgotten or were never acknowledged because no one was watching.

 

These three guys can't even really give the younger guys a rub because they have next to no star power and Nash and Jarrett don't seem too willing to put anybody over anyway.

[Guest OSIcon]

I just like how he threw "and even a former ECW champion" in the same lines as "former WCW and WWF champions"....

[redbaron29 0]

Maybe Joey Styles side is: the fans who say "OMG the NWO IS INVADING....and OMG JEFF HARDY IS SO HOT!" are the new fans who pay $30 for the PPVs.

 

Well maybe its not that over the top.

 

 

I think Joey brings up a great point. In order to get regular marks into the promotion you have to be able to get them watching first. Somebody may tune into a show to see Kevin Nash, or Jeff Hardy and leave wanting to see more AJ Styles and lesser knowns.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

If Nash or Hardy could draw any significant number of fans, Vince would have them under contract right now.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

If Nash or Hardy could draw any significant number of fans, Vince would have them under contract right now.

[Magus 0]

Let's say that what Joey Styles is saying is true: that casual marks will tune in for Nash vs. JJJ, but stick around so they can watch guys like Monty and AJ.

 

It won't work. Why? Because those fans will eventually want to see Monty and AJ on top instead of Nash and Jarrett (just like we do). And when TNA doesn't deliver on that, they'll turn away (like many of us are).

 

It's the same song and dance from when WCW was around. Joey's statements are the same excuses they used for pushing the egos to the top and holding down the REAL TALENT.

[Zack Malibu 0]

I don't think TNA expects JJ vs. Nash to draw. Nor did they expect JJ vs. Monty to draw, and that's why they went with the three way. And they knew JJ vs. Hardy wouldn't draw, so they added the ladder stip and the Outsiders to that match.

 

It's what TNA does. It takes something that no one wants to see, and pairs it up with something that will catch your eye (Ladder match with JJ/Hardy, the last PPV had Ultimate X as it's draw, this one will have the Iron Man and TLC matches). The problem is, on a three hour PPV, there shouldn't be matches we don't care about, let alone major/main event matches.

 

To the person stating that Triple H can work better, I disagree. Jarrett is better in the ring workrate-wise, but lacks the psychology Trips has. Both have their flaws, and I'm not JJ fan by any means, but I'd rather see a match with JJ's ring skills over Triple H's.

 

Let's face it, JJ will always, ALWAYS be in the main event scene since it's his company. We have to deal with that. He just needs to deal with the fact that he's not going to be the answer to his company's survival. The evolution of stars like Styles, Brown, Daniels, Williams, Sabin, etc. will be.

 

It's unfair to lump all the former WWE/WCW stars in one category, because it's wrestling, and you never know who's going to get over on a given day (and by the same token, who people will get sick of). DDP can work, so keep him in an upper card slot. Hall and Nash should be used as a team to cut back on their lack of ability these days, and to help the tag scene (which produces awesome matches, but always finds itself in the cycle of AMW/3LK/Team Canada/Shane and Kazarian). The feud between Dustin Rhodes and Raven is a perfect example of what should be done with veteran talent. Their working against each other, away from the titles and major programs, doing their own thing. If it gets over, take it to the next level. If it fails, you can blow it off quick and pair them off with others. Those are the matches where you should toss something against the wall and see what sticks. Don't do that with the guys you're going to need (note I said need, not want) to build around fairly soon.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

Dusty actually does expect JJJ v Nash to draw.

[Zack Malibu 0]

He also said that TNA would have made a mistake in putting the belt on Brown (something I don't see). If he keeps thinking like that, it's going to be a loooong six months.

[HollywoodSpikeJenkins 0]

As a (former) fan of TNA, this is all I have to say.

 

 

 

I ordered the PPV to watch the X-Divison Matches and Raven's chase for the title/AJ's title regin. I haven't ordered a PPV since and only watch Impact when I remember it...

 

 

Oh, its on now. If I didn't post in this thread, I would of forgot.

[Zack Malibu 0]

Truthfully, you're missing out on some quality stuff. Even super cynic SK loved the last PPV. The three hour PPV's have not been let down's at all, it's just the booking of the company as a whole that leaves me shaking my head.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

Bryan Alvarez made a good point in this week's F4W that TNA have such a repuation for putting out crap, that, even though they've been putting out strong PPV's, nobody is interested, because they associate TNA with bad wrestling.

[justcoz 0]

Okay, picture for a moment that ECW still existed. WCW folded but TNA came in and produced the product we have today. Joey Styles is on commentary, calling a PPV ironman main event between Samoa Joe and CM Punk. Would he not take a pot shot directed towards "the other company" and their Kevin Nash vs. Jeff Jarrett main event???

 

It's 2005, not 1998. The main company in the business right now has had HHH on top for six years and haven't been able to really establish any true breakout stars. Guys that pick up attendence, draw ratings and bring in PPV buyrates. That same company is also demanding that all of their talent, regardless of their strengths and different styles, wrestle the same style and slow their pace down. Suddenly we are watching guys like Rey Misterio and Tajiri sit in headlocks for four minutes.

 

Here comes TNA with a national spotlight, PPV and many of the guys considered to be "the future of the business" from ROH and the indies. The X Division captures the attention of all smarts. All these guys need is some strong booking and time on the mic to establish their characters. Instead of getting that time needed we get treated to retreads like Jarrett, Luger, Nash, Hall, DDP, etc. So, yes, your "future of the business" is put on the back burner.

 

I understand where Styles is coming from - to a point - get the big names in there to draw interest and then showcase the different styles of wrestling in comparison to WWE. The problem with this is that they've already brought in guys like Piper, Luger, Sting, Savage and now the Outsiders and DDP and people still aren't buying the PPV's or tuning in. Add that to your Toby Keith's, Johnny Fairplay's, football players and your NASCAR hicks (one of which is getting on the PPV as a wrestler).

 

I believe there is a place for people like Piper, Nash, Hall and DDP but it isn't in the main event. It's hosting a Piper's Pit segment, it's using Nash, Hall or DDP as announcers. Perhaps mid card feuds. Something like Hall and Nash vs. a reformed New Age Outlaws. Not world title matches.

[Mystery Eskimo 0]

I don't think there's much to choose between those two cards. The next TNA PPV is a huge step back. Having been on the verge of creating a new star with Monty Brown, they suddenly get cold feet and revert to Nash.

 

Styles-Daniels will be good, but nothing you couldnt find in previous indy matches.

 

TNA are just proving they're as conservative and backward-looking as the WWE.