Wal-Mart to Canada Store: Fuck you and your Union

[NoCalMike 0]

As the only uneducated, uninformed and definately non-paid economist here, all I have to say regarding unions is..............

[Your Paragon of Virtue 0]

I make up for the fact that I have a small dick by pointing out that I am an economist every chance I get.

Tell us something we don't know.

[Dr. Tom 0]

OK, that is the 100% correct economic way of thinking.

 

Now, give us the completely illogical and wrong-headed commie point of view, smartypants.

Edited for accuracy.

[Your Paragon of Virtue 0]

I make up for the fact that I have a small dick by pointing out that I am involved on the indie wrestling circuit every chance I get.

Tell us something we don't know.

[Your Paragon of Virtue 0]

Ooops, double post, might as well add something to the thread.

 

What exactly does a telecommunications company do? It's not labour I'd imagine, I always thought that unions are used purely for jobs that are more labour or shitty retail based, which Walmart falls under.

 

Unions should protect and provide better care for the workers at the same time being fair to the company they work fair. YOU decide if this is the case or not with whatever example is being brought up, and then figure out if a union is really necessary.

[SuperJerk 0]

As the only paid economist here, I'm going to say point-blank what unions do.

 

Unions help those workers who already HAVE jobs by raising the cost of employing new workers to the company (through their wage hike schemes).  By pursuing above market wages, you'd think this would increase productivity.  This gain to the employer is mitigated if the union shop is sufficiently strong to prevent firings.  The effect is indeterminate.

 

However, the effect upon those who could have worked for said employer at the previous market wage is clear.  They cannot. 

 

It should be no suprise, that like a corporation, unions only look after their own.  While benefitting its members, unions tend to push costs onto those not directly involved, and depress employment below what it would be otherwise.

 

And that's just a brief analysis of unions through the lens of economic game theory.

 

Just sayin, that's what they are.  You decide if the reallocation, costs, and benefits is worth it.

Not all unions prevent firings, though. You only said they do so "if the union shop is sufficiently strong". If an employer is justified in firing someone, there is usually a due process which is followed that will result in the termination of the worker in question.

[Jingus 0]

I make up for the fact that I have a small dick by pointing out that I am involved on the indie wrestling circuit every chance I get.

Tell us something we don't know.

7.5 inches, actually. (The wrestling comments are to make up for the fact that I'm overweight and balding.)

[Guest MikeSC]

Ooops, double post, might as well add something to the thread.

 

What exactly does a telecommunications company do? It's not labour I'd imagine, I always thought that unions are used purely for jobs that are more labour or shitty retail based, which Walmart falls under.

Unions try to enter EVERY shop. They've tried to enter my company for YEARS and they have been turned down by the workers every single time. Our only union shop was union before we bought their company.

Unions should protect and provide better care for the workers at the same time being fair to the company they work fair. YOU decide if this is the case or not with whatever example is being brought up, and then figure out if a union is really necessary.

I don't think unions do that. Unions simply like power and political influence. I truly don't think the good of the workers is their primary goal.

 

Unions are superfluous today. There is already considerable competition for qualified workers. Companies will offer workers a ton to attract them (mine CERTAINLY does so). Unions seldom can provide better deals --- and when you add in union dues, workers seldom end up with more money if they didn't have unions.

-=Mike

[SuperJerk 0]

Companies will offer workers a ton to attract them (mine CERTAINLY does so). Unions seldom can provide better deals --- and when you add in union dues, workers seldom end up with more money if they didn't have unions.

-=Mike

Just how high exactly do you think union dues are?

[NoCalMike 0]

I worked at a Target warehouse about three years ago, and when there was rumors of a union trying to come in, all we got from the company was these anti-union leaflets with our checks for a few weeks in a row, stating how terrible unions are and how we would all hate it so much.

 

Needless to say I hated the job, and would continue to hate it whether a union was there or not so I quit.

[Guest MikeSC]

Companies will offer workers a ton to attract them (mine CERTAINLY does so). Unions seldom can provide better deals --- and when you add in union dues, workers seldom end up with more money if they didn't have unions.

      -=Mike

Just how high exactly do you think union dues are?

Considering that the salaries they secure are not higher than the ones I get without a union, it's not material, really. It's a percentage of your salary, if memory serves, but the exact percentage is forgotten by me.

-=Mike

[SuperJerk 0]

Companies will offer workers a ton to attract them (mine CERTAINLY does so). Unions seldom can provide better deals --- and when you add in union dues, workers seldom end up with more money if they didn't have unions.

      -=Mike

Just how high exactly do you think union dues are?

Considering that the salaries they secure are not higher than the ones I get without a union, it's not material, really. It's a percentage of your salary, if memory serves, but the exact percentage is forgotten by me.

-=Mike

But would you get that high salary had the union not been around?

 

Many people get the advantages of the union (higher pay, insurance, etc.), without having to join.

[Guest MikeSC]

Companies will offer workers a ton to attract them (mine CERTAINLY does so). Unions seldom can provide better deals --- and when you add in union dues, workers seldom end up with more money if they didn't have unions.

      -=Mike

Just how high exactly do you think union dues are?

Considering that the salaries they secure are not higher than the ones I get without a union, it's not material, really. It's a percentage of your salary, if memory serves, but the exact percentage is forgotten by me.

-=Mike

But would you get that high salary had the union not been around?

 

Many people get the advantages of the union (higher pay, insurance, etc.), without having to join.

Yes. Considering that the only reason we have a single union shop in our company is that they were there before we bought the company. The CWA has tried to unionize our Northeastern shops for years now --- even harrassing our shops when they tell them no.

 

My benefits are better than any union employee's. Yearly raises. Yearly bonuses. Generous OT.

Many people get the advantages of the union (higher pay, insurance, etc.), without having to join.

When your company never HAD unions and still offer insanely generous benefits --- no union can take credit.

-=Mike

[Styles 0]

Speaking as somebody working for a major telecom company ---

gasp The Mystique is GONE!

 

Anyway as mentioned the Union Dues are what kills me, and the fact that they raise them randomly without telling you why. (Is it really right that someone that gets paid barely 8 bucks an hour before taxes should have 17 (that's SEVENTEEN) dollars a week taken out for mysterious "dues"? It's ridiculous.) I find it most interesting that the adults that work there full time, as their main income (the people you'd think would support the union) have the same negative attitudes feeling they're just out to rip everyone off, and there's like ZERO communication (it's impossible to actually talk to a rep. unless it's a major deal).

 

Whoever mentioned it, you're right that unions at one time served a very noble purpose to prevent workers from being treated like slaves basically. But now a days, they are not as neccesarry (example: do major league baseball players REALLY need a union!?) and it's unfair to be forced to join one (especially as I explained, this is only a part time job between semesters, just to make some cash, if I get fired, who gives a shit, I can find a comparable job in numerous other places).

Oh, I forgot, one of my favorite deals is the monthly publication we get sent in the mail which is basically a Democrat propoganda rag. I'm not exagerating, like every article is about how the Republicans are bad and looking to starve our children and cut our wages while the Democrats are great and for helping everyone. During the election, you can just imagine the smear articles on Bush and glowing articles on Kerry. This wouldn't bother me so much if it wasn't MY MONEY that I was never asked to be taken, but was taken being used to partially FUND political literature for candidates I don't support. For the liberal posters, just imagine a scenario where your jobs took money out of your paycheck every week to send out publications praising President Bush and his policies and crapping on candidates you do support. I don't think that's right, either...

[SuperJerk 0]

When your company never HAD unions and still offer insanely generous benefits --- no union can take credit.

-=Mike

But don't the union wages from other jobs influence the going market rate for labor in general, which has the effect of driving up the cost of specialized labor?

 

The relationship is indirect, but I still believe its there.

[Guest sek69]

It all comes down to cheap-labor conservatives doing whatever they can to prevent unions from letting workers know that they deserve to be paid human wages for what they do.

 

No one who's worked in non-commissioned retail can honestly say they wouldn't have benefitted from having some type of representation when dealing with management.

 

It just boils down to companies wanting to pay their people as little as possible just to make their bottom line.

[Twisted Intestine 0]

Speaking of Wal-Mart, I was previously employed by one.

 

Do they make workers everywhere do that stupid Wal-Mart chant before opening or is it just here?

 

If I was the head of a union my first order of businuss would be to disband that stupid chant. It's like they think they employ a bunch of 5 year olds or something.

[2GOLD 0]

Speaking of Wal-Mart, I was previously employed by one.

 

Do they make workers everywhere do that stupid Wal-Mart chant before opening or is it just here?

 

If I was the head of a union my first order of businuss would be to disband that stupid chant. It's like they think they employ a bunch of 5 year olds or something.

 

They do it during opening here in Delaware.

I've heard it, I saw it and I've never laughed harder.

[Guest Salacious Crumb]

It all comes down to cheap-labor conservatives doing whatever they can to prevent unions from letting workers know that they deserve to be paid human wages for what they do.

 

Do you have an original thought in your body? Seriously wake the fuck up and learn something about the market. You get paid what your labor is worth. Some grunt at McDonald's isn't worth shit in the grand scheme of things so they don't get paid well.

 

I'll even use my own business. I don't pay someone doing grunt labor much more than minimum wage because I can go find some homeless guy on the street to replace them. And people shouldn't make a career out of doing grunt work for my business either, that's just stupid. Though I will pay someone a good salary if they're worth keeping around long term.

 

But workers are not my primary concern as a business owner. Profits and customer happiness are more important than workers. Why? Because profits directly effect me and the health of my company. What good does it do to pay every employee a ton of money if I close down and then said people are out of jobs?

 

Go get a fucking education and get some marketable skills if you want to make money. You're an idiot if you expect anything resmebling good money from work that anyone can do.

[Guest sek69]

What is it with the kneejerk conservative response to the union/living wage argument that the liberal alternative is paying McWorkers $10/hr to flip burgers when they (at least I) don't suggest anything of the sort.

 

I'm not saying McDonald's should pay top dollar, but what's wrong with companies treating their employees like people instead of cattle?

[NoCalMike 0]

It all comes down to cheap-labor conservatives doing whatever they can to prevent unions from letting workers know that they deserve to be paid human wages for what they do.

 

Do you have an original thought in your body? Seriously wake the fuck up and learn something about the market. You get paid what your labor is worth. Some grunt at McDonald's isn't worth shit in the grand scheme of things so they don't get paid well.

 

I'll even use my own business. I don't pay someone doing grunt labor much more than minimum wage because I can go find some homeless guy on the street to replace them. And people shouldn't make a career out of doing grunt work for my business either, that's just stupid. Though I will pay someone a good salary if they're worth keeping around long term.

 

But workers are not my primary concern as a business owner. Profits and customer happiness are more important than workers. Why? Because profits directly effect me and the health of my company. What good does it do to pay every employee a ton of money if I close down and then said people are out of jobs?

 

Go get a fucking education and get some marketable skills if you want to make money. You're an idiot if you expect anything resmebling good money from work that anyone can do.

I would assume when refering to your business, you mean "small business" aka under 100 employees, correct?

[NoCalMike 0]

In most cases, no one is suggesting someone who works at McDonalds makes $10/hr. I think people are referring to multi-million/billion dollar corporations that make their money on the backs of low wage employees, and paying them a reasonable amount more has little to do with "unable to continue running shop" as it does filling the CEO's pocket.

 

For example, when I worked at the Target warehouse, and it came time for the annual "cost of living" raise. It was shite, and people were angry, and the supervisor/company line was "well Target was not profitable this this past year" Fine, everyone shut up. Until the next day when www.yahoo.com reported that the CEO gave himself a 24.5% increase in salary.

[Guest Salacious Crumb]

It depends on what job they do though. There are simply jobs in a company that aren't going to get you much. A grunt in my company gets minimum wage and that's it. I hire mostly high schoolers and college kids looking for extra cash. They shouldn't plan on working there long term and kids don't need a 401k, health insurance or benefits in general. People I plan to keep long term get a good salary and benefits.

 

Companies tend to treat people good. I hate unions because I know way too many people that got stabbed in the back because the union chose power over it's members. I have others that paid dues for years and when they actually needed the union they didn't do anything to help them.

[Guest Salacious Crumb]

And yes my company is under 100 people but I do pay well and have benefits for higher up employees.

[Styles 0]

Companies tend to treat people good.  I hate unions because I know way too many people that got stabbed in the back because the union chose power over it's members.  I have others that paid dues for years and when they actually needed the union they didn't do anything to help them.

Bingo. I like how sek is trying to be SUPER LIBERAL~! but has no idea what he's talking about in relation to the real world. "Anyone who works in non-commision retail knows..." well, guess what I DO, and and many others do as well and I can tell you management has always been very friendly and quick to solve problems, while the Union is invisible and impossible to get a hold of and generally resented. They're out for political power (hence my example of using dues to pay for political propoganda).

I'm not saying every business manager is a Saint, but most are decent enough to their employees. I don't EXPECT to get paid more then the relatively low wages I earn for the work I do on the basis I do it, but I DO have a problem with getting exorbant amounts of cash taken out of that without being told or asked and having it go to shit that doesn't benefit me.

[NoCalMike 0]

It depends on what job they do though. There are simply jobs in a company that aren't going to get you much. A grunt in my company gets minimum wage and that's it. I hire mostly high schoolers and college kids looking for extra cash. They shouldn't plan on working there long term and kids don't need a 401k, health insurance or benefits in general. People I plan to keep long term get a good salary and benefits.

 

Companies tend to treat people good. I hate unions because I know way too many people that got stabbed in the back because the union chose power over it's members. I have others that paid dues for years and when they actually needed the union they didn't do anything to help them.

I don't think anyone is attacking you or your business/practices. Seems fair to me, as highschool kids shouldn't be making anymore then minimum wage for jobs they shouldn't probably be keeping past highschool.

 

There are companies though that continually increase the demands on employees, as far as the ol' "The Company comes first" type rhetoric. Incentive programs go bye-bye as the company gets bigger, and physical demand on labor workers goes up every quarter. Is it unfair or unreasonable to expect an increase in compensation as productivity numbers are raised and people are asked to give bigger commitments to the company?

 

You can't say "oh just go get some marketable skills and everything will be ok" because that just isn't the case anymore. There will always be people needed for those manual labor jobs, and if everyone eligible was college educated with marketable skills, there would be severe shortage of quality jobs available for the demand. Not to mention these days when Corporations like the booming economies of India and China where they can pay workes even lower wages.

[NoCalMike 0]

And yes my company is under 100 people but I do pay well and have benefits for higher up employees.

Well I wasn't trying to insult your business or anything. I was just pointing out that the small business structure differs from global billion dollar companies, and I think what Seka and Me were attacking was that structure, not yours. And honestly, it would probably better to work for you then a Target or Wal-Mart anyway.

[Guest Salacious Crumb]

And yes my company is under 100 people but I do pay well and have benefits for higher up employees.

Well I wasn't trying to insult your business or anything. I was just pointing out that the small business structure differs from global billion dollar companies, and I think what Seka and Me were attacking was that structure, not yours.

I wasn't saying, just trying to use an example of how the minds of the higher ups work.

[NoCalMike 0]

And yes my company is under 100 people but I do pay well and have benefits for higher up employees.

Well I wasn't trying to insult your business or anything. I was just pointing out that the small business structure differs from global billion dollar companies, and I think what Seka and Me were attacking was that structure, not yours.

I wasn't saying, just trying to use an example of how the minds of the higher ups work.

Right, however I am assuming you don't have a team of CEOs, shareholders, and board of trustees to answer to.

[Guest Salacious Crumb]

Not really, just the companies I'm contracted to.