Can anyone educate me about

[CanadianGuitarist 0]

I don't know anything about him, other than *filled with shame*

 

-He was Argentinian

-The movie 'Motorcycle Diaries' was based on him.

-Rage Against The Machine love him.

 

in advance.

[Kapoutman 0]

Well, his name is "Guevara" and not "Guerrera". Other than that, he was Fidel Castro's pal. He helped him take out Batista as President of Cuba. He then stayed on the island a couple of years as a minister of some sort. He then helped in a couple other revolutions, but he was killed during one of them in Bolivia apparently by the CIA.

 

That's all I know.

[Guest Brian]

Che was originally born of a wealthy family in Argentina. Ver sickly boy growing up. He was trained as a doctor originally. Right before graduating, he went on a motorcycle trip across South America with his buddy Alberto Granada. That's where the motorcycle diaries come from, his and Alberto's notes, pre-revolutionary to clear it up for those who think the movie is some celebration of him. In fact, if you read the diaries, it's a very naive Che coming to terms with his racism and idealism at the same time he is getting a "world" experience; he arrives in Guatemala just after the coup, he sees real poverty, etc. And yet, there's still this underlying racism about him towards the indios.

 

Che meets up with Fidel in Mexico, via other friends. Fidel is quite a character, as he wasexiled from Cuba after trying to start a protest and take the armory, eminating from the campus where he was a law student. They lead a group back to Cuba, they take Cuba.

 

Che was never meant to hold government position. He wasn't trained for that, and he was way over his head. Che is considered the heart of the Cuban revolution, and Fidel the head. Che was extremely ambitious, starting programs that didn't work, trying to export the revolution, and eventually Fidel sent him off. He failed in Africa, and Fidel sent him to Bolivia (they chose between a couple of places, with Che heavily favoring a revolution in his native argentina where he would have been killed on arrival) where Che died. The conditions in either place were never favorable, and Che never understood that.

 

There are two good biographies, Jorge Castañeda's Compañero and John Lee Anderson's Che Guevara: A Revolutionary Life.

[Dr. Tom 0]

He was a commie who killed quite a few people. And commies aren't cool.

[cbacon 0]

[Dobbs 3K 0]

I wonder if all the people you see wearing Che shirts actually understand that he was a communist revolutionary who helped establish a brutal dictatorship in Cuba?

[Brett Favre 0]

It's not like it was heaven before the "brutal dictatorship".

[I like Forums 0]

Yeah Batista wasn't a brutal dictator at all guys!

[Dangerous A 0]

Che is a very interesting person in history. He is championed by a lot on the far left because he was martyred. He died trying to bring about Revolution. Also, there are accounts that he didn't beg for his life or anything and supposedly "went out like a man". Che is viewed as a guy willing to die for his principals. The man also killed or ordered the execution of anyone who was even remotely viewed as a threat to the Revolution. He is more of an icon to the militant left as opposed to the peace loving left. The man was also very much in favor of nuking the U.S. so that it would be easier to help establish a Communist government there.

 

While I see how he is appealing and charismatic, he just doesn't do it for me. The guy was for killing people who had a difference of opinion and he actually went through and killed people. I have a problem with that. I don't have to see eye to eye with anyone, but it doesn't give me the right to murder them because they disagree. That goes for any and all people. I see how people who are into him appreciate his passion for his cause and all, I just choose not to celebrate him.

[Richard 0]

He was mocked by a dog in a series of taco bell ads.

[Jobber of the Week 0]

This makes me wish I kept around that animated GIF that shows the black-and-red Che design get a gun shoved into it's mouth and his head blown off.

[I like Forums 0]

Che going in and taking out Latin American dictators (also his attempt in the Congo) is no different than the US (apparently) going into Iraq "to take out Saddam Hussein" and impose Democracy. Instead Che wanted to impose Communism.

[Justice 0]

[The Czech Republic 0]

Che going in and taking out Latin American dictators (also his attempt in the Congo) is no different than the US (apparently) going into Iraq "to take out Saddam Hussein" and impose Democracy. Instead Che wanted to impose Communism.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, this folder sure is the New Coke

[Shooting Star 0]

I don't think Che knew that Fidel was going to be a brutal dictator(worse than Batista they both suck but Fidel takes 1st place) whenever he comes to Dominican Republic and I see him I can't believe that a guy who looks that nice is such a brutal dictator.

[Dobbs 3K 0]

Yes, I understand that Batista was bad. But all they ended up doing was replacing one evil for another.

[Art Sandusky 0]

Che going in and taking out Latin American dictators (also his attempt in the Congo) is no different than the US (apparently) going into Iraq "to take out Saddam Hussein" and impose Democracy. Instead Che wanted to impose Communism.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Stop showing an ability to think relatively.

[Guest Brian]

I don't think Che knew that Fidel was going to be a brutal dictator(worse than Batista they both suck but Fidel takes 1st place) whenever he comes to Dominican Republic and I see him I can't believe that a guy who looks that nice is such a brutal dictator.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Shit, a lot of what Fidel did and continues to do is because of Che and his policies and where they got him.

[SuperJerk 0]

I wonder if all the people you see wearing Che shirts actually understand that he was a communist revolutionary who helped establish a brutal dictatorship in Cuba?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I wonder if all the people you see with Che shirts even realize their not really wearing actual "Rage Against the Machine" licenced t-shirts.

[Nighthawk 0]

They don't. Ask them, you'll be legitimately surprised by how many people actually think he's in the band.

[Guest Vitamin X]

I know you guys miss good ol' MikeSC, so here's his view on "El Che":

Somebody over there wanted a bio of the pop culture icon. So, here goes, since nobody over there seemed to have the slimmest recollection of a clue about the man:

 

Ernesto "Che" Guevera

 

In 1959, he volunteered to be the executioner for the Cuban revolution, who'd KILL any troops who might not do exactly what was asked. He was in charge of untold executions in La Cabana fortress in Havana (and people think Gitmo as bad). He ordered women and children visiting the prison to be forced to view the execution wall, which had quite a bit of blood and organs all over it. Oh, and he thought "judicial proof" before executing a prisoner was a needless formality. He wanted the Revolution to be, and this is a quote, "This is a revolution! And a revolutionary must become a cold killing machine motivated by pure hate. We must create the pedagogy of the paredon (the execution wall)". In terms of sheer proportions, Che slaughtered more Cubans than Himmler slaughtered Germans. He created a special concentration camp in Guanacahibes for "delinquents" ("delinquency" being defined by Che as drinking, vagrancy, disrespect for authorities, laziness and playing loud music).

 

Yeah, good role model there Rage Against the Machine. You'd be slaughtered by him if given the chance.

 

In fact, at its APEX, the Nazis had, at most, about 20,000 political prisoners. Nobody even has the numbers of how many political prisoners Castro and Che rounded up in just a few months after gaining power.

 

Kristallnacht, as horrible as it was, led to a grand total of 71 deaths. Che PERSONALLY ordered the deaths of between 500 and 1897 Cubans in the first 3 months of the "revolution". He (Che) had 568 firing squad executions within 3 months of gaining power. Che loved lining prisoners against the execution wall and fire blanks at them (just to give you an idea of what psychological torture fucking is).

 

His military leadership was borderline inept. The Union in the Civil War had better leadership than Che could honestly churn out. The Panamanian National Guard routed his forces in 1959. He was then sent to the Dominican Republic --- and was soundly thrashed again. In 1965, Castro sent him to help liberate African states, and Che, again, was humiliated. He was then sent 200 troops to help a Congolese leftist group try to overthrow the government. And I don't think that, at this point, the final result of that is REALLY in question, is it? He then tried to organize a rebellion in Bolivia --- managing to attract a whopping FIFTEEN guerillas --- and was routed again. It was so bad, Castro cut off support. Hell, in the Bay of Pigs invasion, Che actually was completely fooled by a rather weak feint, sending his several thousand troops to attack a boat and a tape recorder. The wound on his forehead that is visible in most of the pics of him came during this incursion, when he somehow injured himself in spite of not actually being in combat.

 

Castro, in fact, had problems finding a position for Che that he did not utterly fuck up. He put him in charge of the National Bank. He was a miserable failure. He put him in charge of Agrarian Reform. He tanked at that.

 

Che, to put it simply, was a bully. When facing opposition, he crumbled and bumbled. When facing handcuffed, blindfolded, and shackled prisoners, he had no qualms about slaughtering them.

 

Just to give you an idea of what this poster boy for the left ACTUALLY did.

 

And, yes, A LOT of them adore this idiotic, cowardly, utterly useless thug.

 

I then later on made a comment on The Motorcycle Diaries, and offered a tiny bit of insight on what I thought of Che:

Shame is, it's actually a very well-made and nice movie, although a bit slow at times, and it shows all his travels and things BEFORE he became corrupted by Fidel's bullshit in Havana. The movie focuses on his vision, which was/is a beautiful thing, and that is the unification of Latin America, to bring together the entire Spanish-speaking culture of the Americas under one state, since we already have much of the same society and culture. But, thanks to him and Castro, this is why we're seeing so much continued guerrilla resistance, rebellions, uprisings, and overall just general violence and turmoil with every country south of the United States, including the Carribean (think those Haitian uprisings a couple years ago had nothing to do with the Castro administration? Think Hugo Chavez and his group of commie thugs took control by themselves? It's all Castro, and the men that served under him, include El Che)

 

His response?

No, that film was sentimental bullshit that tried to all but canonize a murderous thug.

 

You HONESTLY think CASTRO "corrupted" him?

 

Hardly.

 

He was a thug when he met Castro. He had NO problem just slaughtering people whenever he possibly could.

 

To try and defend a Himmler for a different generation is the height of moral equivalence.

 

The ONLY reason Che isn't spat upon universally is because the far left in academia STILL holds an irrational hard-on for the oppressive thugs that made up the Communist movement.

 

Aaaaand here we go.

So Che was a thug before he met Castro, before the 26th of July movement?

 

Even in your whole ditty on Guevara at the beginning of this thread, you didn't mention a single thing Che did before 1959. I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you here, but I want to know what necessarily made him a thug before the 26th of July movement. Just curious to know here how a doctor volunteering at a leper colony in Peru became, or already was, a thug.

He lacked the authority to be a full-fledged thug.

 

Once he got a little bit of power, his thuggery became obvious.

So there's no proof then, that Castro and the other members of the 26th of July movement (particularly Fidel's brother Raul, who's said to be even worse than Fidel) DIDN'T corrupt him?

 

From what I know, El Che was a doctor with a vision of a unified mestizo culture and society, of a South America without borders, until he went from being a doctor to a soldier in the `59 Revolution. From then on, it was the Castro administration (note the executions that took place at La Cabana were from former members of Batista's administration and the forces they led, and those numbers you gave are false- it's estimated the deaths that occured were anywhere from 156- to as many as 500.. which is still notably worse than Kristallnacht, but not even close to the number you suggested) who implored Che to take revenge on the former administration through torture and said execution.

 

He is fully responsible for the military failures in the Congo and obviously in Bolivia where he was finally captured and killed, but he has one major military victory under his belt, which was his march on Santa Clara in 1958 where his forces derailed a train carrying Batista's troops and thus ultimately deciding the fate of Cuba from bad to worse when the Castro administration took over.

 

I'd like to see where you're getting your information on what happened in La Cabana from.

 

He then started his line-by-line dissection thing and I had a response, but there isn't much educational information on El Che from this point on, other than me providing evidence (whereas he, surprise surprise, didn't) on how many people Che killed between 1957-1959 which can be found here.

[Dangerous A 0]

I know this is a stretch, but I sort of liken Guevara to Anakin/Darth Vader. Here is a guy who seemed like he had great intentions for the world, but on the way to trying to make change through revolution, he became absolute in his ways and lost compassion for anything and anyone that he felt would stand in the way. His vision could not be executed without becoming cold. However, because of his strong belief in what he was doing, it felt justified to him.

[Guest Brian]

If you read Motorcycle Diaries, you get a gist of what made him what he ended up as. He was a racist; and he wanted to shove it to his political enemies. I'll pull up the quotes later. I tend to think Fidel gets the shaft in favor of Che.

 

There are some real cool stories, though, about Che sneaking into countries in complete disguise and absolutely no one in his own camp knowing who he was.

 

Anyways, I don't know if most people know that when Che was killed in Bolivia, basically when pictures of him were snuck out and released, he very much resembled Christ, which is part of his cult.

[Vyce 0]

I'll end the debate here: he was a complete and utter piece of human shit and the world is a better place without him, although it would have been an even better place had he never even existed at all.

 

Arguing over exactly how big of a piece of human shit he was is irrelevant. It's enough to know that he was a big enough piece of shit that he's on my list of dead people who's graves I sincerely wish to defecate on.

[I like Forums 0]

"world is a better place without him"

 

 

... Do people really think Cuba was better off under Batista's rule????

[Guest SP-1]

I'm not sure that's a valid defense of Che. It's not like Cuba became a Utopia. With that defense, you essentially end up saying, "But this brand of evil is surely better than that brand of evil."

 

Evil is evil.

[Guest Vitamin X]

"world is a better place without him"

 

 

... Do people really think Cuba was better off under Batista's rule????

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Absolutely. Fidel's takeover only ensured that the situation went from bad to worse.

 

For christ's sake people, my family is from there and I've known the effects from firsthand accounts. Believe me, Fidel is an evil fucking bastard. Much worse than Kim Jong-Il, Saddam Hussein, and more.

 

Interesting story. Last year, when all the hurricanes were blasting Florida as well as Cuba, Fidel Castro wanted to move everyone to these poorly constructed underground tunnels, to "keep them safe". Of course, what would happen when everything gets flooded above ground....?