I got called unAmerican by my Dean,

[Brett Favre 0]

There was a girl in my school who was a Jehovah's witness and she never stood for the anthem or never participated in the pledge, and nobody ever said anything to her.

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My best friend, back in junior high, a Jehovah's witness, stood up, but never pledged or said anything. One time the teacher decided to be a smart ass and tell him he must do this, till he gave her his explaination. No problem there either afterwoods.

[Nighthawk 0]

In all the excitement, I forgot that I have a story about The Man holding me down in school. I had this Marilyn Manson shirt with a three faced Jesus on it, and they said I couldn't wear it because it was sacreligious. I said that it wasn't a religious school (which it wasn't). They then switched tactics, and said that I was too smart to listen to Marilyn Manson. Eyes were rolled. That was the end of that.

 

Although I still like Marilyn Manson, it is no longer proper to wear his shirts. However, I liked the three faced Jesus so much that I cut it out and sewed it on the back of a jacket. I wish I still had the MM shirt with "I Am the God of Fuck" on the back, as I would do the same. Sadly I lost that one somewhere along the way.

[Guest Fishyswa]

"First of all, the pledge harms nobody."

 

Depends on what you believe, some feel a lack of seperation of church and state hurts society, and the pledge is a perfect example of it.

 

"Your comparison of pledge = lynching is specious at best and offensive at worst."

 

It's the logic you've presented.

 

"It's not the same logic at all."

 

No it is, it's about not standing up for what you believe in.

 

"He doesn't believe in the pledge for an idiotic reason to begin with;"

 

Says you, his beliefs are his beliefs.

 

"nobody is forcing him to say "under God" or anything at all."

 

But they are. The Pledge has the words under god in it, if they make him say the pledge, they make him say under god.

 

"The teacher would've never noticed had he simply remained silent during the whole ordeal."

 

I never knew sitting was so loud.

 

"However, his point was to make a stand and make it obvious that he was protesting; thus, he sat down and made a scene."

 

Please explain how staying seated is causing a scene?

 

"That's why I'm calling him a drama queen."

 

Pretty lame.

 

"I don't have problems with protest in general or disagreeing with something; God knows I've protested things and God knows I don't disagree with quite a damned lot of what the government says. However, sitting down and disavowing the pledge because you don't believe it should have the words "under God" in it -- or, worse, just because you don't believe in God and therefore you shouldn't have to pledge respect to the country that lets you be present in the classroom in the first place -- is teenage immaturity and nancyboyism at its worst."

 

All he did was what he felt comfortable doing, and no one's swallowing the "they gave you this in the first place so shut up about what you don't like". With that logic as long as we're given what we need we should concede the right to work towards happiness in the rest of our lives. Nice justification for a dictatorship too.

 

You assuming his intent is no excuse for faulty logic and lame insults.

[Big Ol' Smitty 0]

blah pussy blah blah fuck blah

 

I thought you purported to be a libertarian?

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I am.

 

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It seems like you're taking the statist, anti-civil libertarian side here.

 

Mind you, I didnt say it all, but I stood up at least.  Lots of dead people deserved at least that.

 

I think it's more of a disservice to those who came before to lower your voice and

conform to doing something that you don't think is right than to not stand for the pledge.

[Krankor 0]

Sometimes I just want to beat bitches up.

[Krankor 0]

You may continue with your exciting discussion.

[BruiserKC 0]

Depends on what you believe, some feel a lack of seperation of church and state hurts society, and the pledge is a perfect example of it.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

To me, I don't see the Pledge as an issue of government-endorsed religion...although our nation and the Constitution were founded on Judeo-Christian philosophies. To be honest, I barely notice the words myself which takes away from their meaning.

 

That being said, gWIL seems to have found the right balance. He doesn't want to say them, yet he's not saying no one else should. That's where the socialists and secularists have completely blown the issue of church and state separation WAY out of proportion. The idea behind it was for the government to not endorse a specific religion for worship (the way France and Spain did with the Roman Catholic Church or England did with the Anglican Church). You have the right to worship (or not worship) as you see fit.

 

The problem lays in people who want to remove ALL mention of God anywhere and thus to me the ACLU and other such organizations are ironically trampling on their rights. That was never the intention of the founding Fathers. True libertarians believe this...not these whackos running the ACLU now.

 

It's sad per the ACLU still has a calling in this country if they'd drop protecting child-rapists of NAMBLA and protecting the rights of Islamo-fascist foreigners who would force Americans to kneel before Allah and lop off their heads first if they ever succeeded.

[Guest BrokenWings]

Hasn't school been in for a month and a half already? Were you standing for it every day prior to finding out it was within your rights not to? If not, why is this only now causing a scene? And if so, why didn't you feel as though your rights were being impeded on beforehand?

 

You mentioned what happened with the teacher, but what happened with the Dean? I mean, after all, that is the reason you created this thread.

 

Yeah, you're full of shit.

[Slayer 0]

When did Tyler become a cigar-chomping beer-swilling John America?

[Stephen Joseph 0]

It seems like you're taking the statist, anti-civil libertarian side here.

 

 

 

No. I'm not. What part of this kid is an attention-whore do you not get?

There are so many people twisting these arguments of freedom of speech in this thread that they're not even noticing that their logic is faulty.

 

We have the freedom of speech.

Because its a freedom, we should use it responsibily.

If you choose to act like a dumbass, you help erode our freedom of speech.

 

The argument Tyler and I are both making is that we fully support the right to protest, the freedom to protest, and hell we have both done it. Butwe werent a teenage dumbass about it. Nothing in his initial post belies an overwhelming concern about "Under God" It's rhetorical is more indicative of an attention-whoring 16 year old whose ego isn't in check with reality.

 

That is why Tyler and I deride him.

[Guest Fishyswa]

Because you've assumed his intent and stereotyped him into a typical teenager?

 

Well I can't find a fault in that....

[Dr. Tyler; Captain America 0]

Because he's stated his intent and therefore, stereotyped himself.

[kkktookmybabyaway 0]

Threads like this are better when the subject line is "I'm gonna do it!..."

[Big Ol' Smitty 0]

It seems like you're taking the statist, anti-civil libertarian side here.

 

Butwe werent a teenage dumbass about it. Nothing in his initial post belies an overwhelming concern about "Under God" It's rhetorical is more indicative of an attention-whoring 16 year old whose ego isn't in check with reality.

 

That is why Tyler and I deride him.

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gWIL:

 

Today in my speech class (high school) I wouldn't stand up for the pledge

 

I believe in the seperation of church and state.

 

When it directly refers to and thus endorses Christainity it does.

(When Tyler says the pledge has nothing to do w/seperation of church & state)

 

I'm not asking to ban it, just asking to be allowed to quietly sit with out being told I MUST stand up. What's wrong with me sitting quietly?

 

[gWIL checked Indiana legislation to make sure he was acting legally]

 

The teacher that sent me to the dean's office apologized and said I could sit if I sat in the back of the room...I'm not going to fight that.

 

Yeah, he's a real firebrand, this one.

 

Nothing he has said in this thread indicates that he was seeking attention. He acted totally appropriately.

[Guest MikeSC]

Provided you don't mind shitty medical care, snotty citizens who are convinced they're funny, and a military that would get routed by a stiff breeze.

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Hey, way to fulfil the stereotype Mike, you ignorant piece of shit.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Bite me.

[Guest MikeSC]

standing for the pledge is simply a sign of respect for your nation

And if you don't have respect for it?

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Moving elsewhere is not exactly difficult. You can always go elsewhere.

[Art Sandusky 0]

Just fuckin' stand up out of some respect, you ass. FUCK I HATE STUPID FUCKING KIDS GIVING THE FIRST AMENDMENT A BAD RAP

[Guest MikeSC]

The teacher that sent me to the dean's office apologized and said I could sit if I sat in the back of the room. The ICLU lady seemed disappointed and said that they can't make me sit in the back, but I'm not going to fight that.

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Wow, the bovine excrement is getting REALLY deep here.

[Art Sandusky 0]

And that was a serious grumpy old man post. If you can't even stand up, then you're either lazy or retarded. This big, bad state everyone's talking about doesn't ask much of its citizens, ESPECIALLY students. I think you can stand up for 25 seconds considering the state's responsible for your education (they don't even ask if you want it or not, what cads!) in the first place.

[Dr. Tyler; Captain America 0]

I'd debate whether "under God" really endorses Christianity (it doesn't; whether it should be in there is another debate in and of itself, but it's not an endorsement of Christianity or any religion, for that matter), but really, whatever I think I've made it clear that I think this kid is a weenie, and that's not going to change because someone I tend to agree with disagrees with me in this case.

[Guest MikeSC]

So, let me see if I got the logic straight in this utter bullshit story:

 

The student has freedom of speech. The dean (and, as somebody else asked, when the hell did principals become "deans"? I've never heard of this) does not have freedom of speech.

 

Got it. Consistency.

 

I vigorously oppose the state forcing me to financially support an educational system that has seriously underperformed in its purpose. Guess what? I STILL have to pay the taxes, even if I oppose it.

 

As an ADULT, you have to do things you don't want to do.

[Guest MikeSC]

I'd debate whether "under God" really endorses Christianity (it doesn't; whether it should be in there is another debate in and of itself, but it's not an endorsement of Christianity or any religion, for that matter), but really, whatever I think I've made it clear that I think this kid is a weenie, and that's not going to change because someone I tend to agree with disagrees with me in this case.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hell, I agree with you. Completely.

 

You have a right to not stand. You can avoid being a pussy drama queen in the process.

 

Apparently, two words make the ENTIRE PLEDGE a hymn to Christianity. Yup, can't simply not say those unbelievably offensive words --- have to not say ANY of it because, dammit, you have rights.

[Big Ol' Smitty 0]

it's not an endorsement of Christianity or any religion, for that matter

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

So every time time a Christian says the pledge they are "taking the name of God in vain" since it isn't a reference to any "actual" God?

[Guest MikeSC]

And we manage to deal with it. Astonishing.

[Dr. Tyler; Captain America 0]

No, because "taking the name of God in vain" implies using God in a negative context, but kudos for taking the ten commandments out of context anyway! A true fundamentalist, you are

[Guest MikeSC]

I also think it makes the almighty Christians look pretty reasonable in their refusal to allow their beliefs to control how the country is run.

 

Hell, I could mention that the quite devout Teddy Roosevelt felt that putting "In God We Trust" on our money was quite blasphemous.

[Art Sandusky 0]

Whew, took Mike refusing to support the educational system to remind me that I'm not teetering on the brink of conservatism like I thought.

 

Whenever you say the pledge, all that needs to be done is to stop moving your mouth once it gets to the God part, then resume once it's over. No fuss, no muss, no one'll notice.

[Big Ol' Smitty 0]

No, because "taking the name of God in vain" implies using God in a negative context, but kudos for taking the ten commandments out of context anyway! A true fundamentalist, you are

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

vain 1. Having no real substance, value, or importance; empty; void; worthless; unsatisfying. ``Thy vain excuse.'' ... 2. Destitute of forge or efficacy; effecting no purpose; fruitless; ineffectual; as, vain toil; a vain attempt. ...

[Stephen Joseph 0]

There's still an argument on this?

 

As If.

 

1) Quoting wikipedia doesn't make your argument. Posting 2 liners doesn't make an argument either.

 

Rhetoric is the study of language. Silly me for having a degree in rhetoric.

 

(he says)

"Today in my speech class (high school) I wouldn't stand up for the pledge and I was took to the dean's office were I was called unAmerican and told I should move to Canada. They didn't seem to understand that I don't legally have to stand up. "

 

Where does that say anything about religious beliefs. That statement is written with the intention of sparking a controversy. That's the kind of statement whereupon the speaker can come back later on and claim a high road that is undeserved.

 

Tyler called him on it. Bravo.

[Big Ol' Smitty 0]

As If.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Are we teenage valley girls now?

 

Quoting wikipedia doesn't make your argument.

 

Who quoted wikipedia?

 

That statement is written with the intention of sparking a controversy.

 

I disagree.

 

Where does that say anything about religious beliefs.

 

He said it in the very next post (when asked). Plus, it's kind of assumed...that's the whole reason most people that have a problem with the pledge do so.

 

If he had had a problem w/the pledge because he doesn't like America, then I would've said fuck him.