TNA Turning Point

[qdes 0]

I thought AJ Vs. Joe was the best match I've ever seen but what do I know?

I know you need to watch more wrestling. Did you see Unbreakable?

I watched the 3 way from Unbreakable that Meltzer gave ***** and frankly I thought this Styles/Joe singles match was better than that one.

*slaps head* I didn't think the Unbreakable 3-way was five star but it still blew this match out of the water.

 

Of course I did. Thist was just the first time I had a physical reaction over wrestling. I'm little embarassed. This was way better than that one. Eventhough I hate the word 'spotfest', it apllies to that threeway match.

[Guest Coffey]

Well, apparently I saw a different match than everyone else. All I'll say is that this match didn't change my 5 MOTY votes. No one agrees with me? I didn't think this match was as good as their first contest and I thought Unbreakable blew it away. This match was sloppy. The powerbomb into STF Joe spot? Botched. I don't know if Styles didn't know the STF was coming or if maybe he was trying a small package but it was fucked up. The springboard reverse DDT move that Styles always attempts? Sloppy, like always. The above mentioned clothesline spot? Train wreck. There was a lot of stuff like that throughout the whole match. Y'all act like cause they were stiff, had a couple bloody lips and a few false finishes that it was the best shit you've ever seen. The match was good, easily MOTN but it was only about ***1/2 to ***3/4. Don't y'all ever watch Puro or ROH? This match wasn't anything remarkable, even for TNA standards. It didn't suck but it wasn't mind-blowing, altered my life, "I'll never forget this match" good. Jesus Christ.

[Astro101 0]

Maybe it didn't come across well in your post, but you sound pissed off that people don't agree with your opinions.

 

I haven't seen the match yet, but will and I'll judge it like I'll judge any wrestling match I see. I put my enjoyment first. I can't see every little slip up, I don't notice them all. And if I look for them, I won't enjoy the match.

[Stephen Joseph 0]

Yeah, coffery, you did come across like that

[Guest Coffey]

I'm saying the match was good but not amazing. I pointed out a few flaws as to why the match wasn't amazing. I don't want to go through the whole match with a fine comb. I watched it and that was just a couple of things I noticed when watching the match. I wasn't sitting there thinking "oh, they messed up, minus 1/5th star."

 

The people in this thread are making the match out the be amazing and I can't agree with that. If I come off as being pissed off because of that, then so be it. I'm certainly not going to admit that I'm wrong.

[World's Worst Man 0]

It's alright Coffey, you didn't seem angry in that post. Since people want to assume things, I'll just assume the first guy who accused you of that is an AJ Styles mark. Boy, the world sure is easy when you can assume things without really knowing.

 

Anyway, I'm going to re-watch the match today and really put the screws to it to see how it turned out. Unfortunately I don't have access to the first Joe-Styles TNA match, because I'd like to re-watch that one too.

[Mystery Eskimo 0]

Pretty decent show. Joe-Styles was good if not classic, but they'll have chances to top it.

 

Oh, and Fosbury Flop is the name for the jumping method used in the high jump, as invented by a guy called Fosbury.

[Lil' Bitch 0]

Would it be fair to compare Styles / Joe to Lesnar / Mysterio?

[RedJed 0]

Lots of variable opinions here. Makes for good discussion as long as there is no flame wars or someone accusing others of being marks towards the promotion or certain workers just because their opinion is different.

 

I guess I'll be the first to say it - I thought this was, top to bottom, the most solid ppv TNA has done since they started the monthly ppvs. There was purpose to even the lamest match in 4LK v. Team Canada with a solid turn by Konnan after the match. Raven-Kanyon was a letdown in terms of time given to the match as I felt there could have been so much more there and instead it was more like a glorified squash match somewhat. But they followed up with Zbysko losing it after the match, so at least that (lame) angle is being moved ahead faster than expected. PLEASE give us Raven v. Sting for the world title, TNA. Alot to be said on that Christian-Brown finish. I gotta say that if thats the best he can do right now, Monte Brown does need to be developed much more before he hits main event level. TNA made the best move there for the time being. Now its just a question when Christian will get a title shot. They may do a long title chase with Christian, possibly. Wouldnt be surprised if he doesnt get the belt for at least 6 months, maybe at the Anniversary show.

 

Joe-Styles was pretty fucking amazing anyway you slice it. I cant fathom anyone marking this anything below **** really but thats just me. It just seemed to have such a great flow and psychology, chuck full of holy shit moves, almost to the point where you feel exhausted just watching the match after it was over. Only a handful of TNA matches have really done this right, as most are highspots just all over the place with no rhyme or reason, but this worked beautifully. The shitkicking AJ was taking built some great heat when he started fighting back (and keep in mind Joe is basically a face even though he's booked as a heel so that makes it even that more impressive) - it really added a variable not seen too often, at least in TNA bouts. I'm usually not all for no-selling big moves, but when AJ kind of "hulked up" there during that one part of the match, it just made sense into what they were going for in that the finish was that much more tremendous and emotional. Much better than the first match with these guys and I havent really figured out if this was better than the 3 way at Unbreakable. My first reaction, until I see both again, is that it probably was.

 

For garbage style I thought Sabu-Abyss was quite acceptable stuff. It didnt have the same flow as the Monsters Ball match did, but I think served its purpose just fine. I mean, fuck, it was a barbed wire match - is anyone expecting anything else other than the obvious (spots into the barbed wire)? I sure wasnt. The "Basebrawl" match was also a tad better than I thought it was going to be, going into it. Helped out things that you had Damon and AJ actually playing a part in the finish, but Sabin and Dutt, and even David fuckin Young all looked really solid here. Tables match was alright but a pretty anticlimactic finish. What the hell happened to Storm? And what was with that weird sequence where D-Von was going to be put through a table with a 3-D and something just went wrong? Maybe that had something to do with Storm's supposed serious injury.

 

Jarrett-Rhino was certainly better than I thought it was going to be, but it was certainly full of just abotu every smoke and mirror you could get. The Team Canada run-ins were extremely weak though. The bump Jarrett took through the entrance, though, was of course botched a bit (table didnt break) but I think that made that bump that much better. Me and a friend were laughing our asses off at Jarrett taking crazy bumps like that - couldnt happen to a more deserving worker! To these guys credit though, they worked a match that ended up with some seriously strong near falls, even to the point where I thought Rhino, for a few seconds, might actually get the belt again. The finish was seen from a mile away though, and TNA needs to strive to get away from finishes like this, as they are so uncreative it just kills the enjoyment of the entire match when you have such a weak finish like that. Seems to be all too commonplace with Jarrett title matches too, so I'm sure its not just coincidence.

 

They really shouldnt have done what they did with the Sting thing either at the end like that. The rumors were leaked big time, as evident by the crowd chanting Stings name before anything even happened, and since I would imagine TNA should have known this, they should have at the very least had Sting show up there to even just stand around starting at Jarrett from the top of the arena or something. Shit, they could have even done THAT without him being there. So a really shitty ending to a really good show, all in all.

[Guest Prodigy]

Injury Report from last night:

 

THE TNA WALKING WOUNDED

There were several injuries suffered by TNA stars at Sunday's Pay-Per-View....

 

Both Sabu and Abyss were treated by TNA medical staff for severe lacerations after their bloody "Barbed Wire Massacre" on Sunday night. Sabu suffered cuts to his face, arms and legs, while Abyss had his left arm completely torn open by the razor wire among other rips to his skin. Both stars received dozens of stitches after the show.

 

Also receiving stitches was "The Phenomenal" AJ Styles, who had his upper lip completely ripped open during his match against Samoa Joe. The cut was deep enough to require several stitches from medical staff.

 

Raven also suffered a busted lip during his match, but did not require stiches

 

Jeff Jarrett received a nasty cut on his forehead during his NWA World Heavyweight Title match against Rhino

 

James Storm of America's Most Wanted received what was described as a mild neck stinger in AMW's loss to Team 3D. After being cleared by TNA medical staff, Storm was up and walking but he will be sore for the next few days.

 

Good to hear Storm's doing okay.

[LaParkaYourCar 0]

Well, apparently I saw a different match than everyone else. All I'll say is that this match didn't change my 5 MOTY votes. No one agrees with me? I didn't think this match was as good as their first contest and I thought Unbreakable blew it away. This match was sloppy. The powerbomb into STF Joe spot? Botched. I don't know if Styles didn't know the STF was coming or if maybe he was trying a small package but it was fucked up. The springboard reverse DDT move that Styles always attempts? Sloppy, like always. The above mentioned clothesline spot? Train wreck. There was a lot of stuff like that throughout the whole match. Y'all act like cause they were stiff, had a couple bloody lips and a few false finishes that it was the best shit you've ever seen. The match was good, easily MOTN but it was only about ***1/2 to ***3/4. Don't y'all ever watch Puro or ROH? This match wasn't anything remarkable, even for TNA standards. It didn't suck but it wasn't mind-blowing, altered my life, "I'll never forget this match" good. Jesus Christ.

 

Maybe it's just me but I never thought his Moonsault/Reverse DDT looked sloppy. I've always been quite surprised at how often he pulls it off unslopily (is that a word?).

[World's Worst Man 0]

Rewatched the match just now.

 

A few general themes in the match. First off, Joe's offense was just incredibly stiff, more so than usual. Stiff in a good way, as it wasn't "sloppy" stiffness, but intense and believable stiffness, that put over how Joe really meant business in facing his toughest challenge yet. Joe's long control segment on AJ was really good, and basically is what made up the majority of the match. It was long enough and the offense was effective enough to leave no doubt as to what it was meant for (meaning building heat on AJ for an eventual comeback). AJ's comeback teases were really good. Fighting out of the chinlock, and then taking a brutal running knee in the corner was a short-lived, but effective first attempt. Him blocking the facewash, throwing a few strikes, only to get the taste slapped out of his mouth during the discus punch was just awesome. Selling was absolutely incredible. AJ put over the beating like he really was getting rocked (and maybe he was). Even on offense, he was putting over the damage. Joe as always, was selling well, but his late, long-term selling was also top-notch, in particular showing he was fatigued.

 

A few specific things. AJ's early aggression played perfectly into the story that he wanted to beat some respect into Joe. AJ going for the muscle buster really put this over as well. Transitions were typically strong. The setup to the running moonsault was in particular effective. Joe's 2nd attempt at the running corner knee/kick was countered with a back bodydrop to the outside, which was then followed by the running moonsault. The big clothesline transition late in the match was great too. It looked brutal, and Joe handled it like a pro, very slowly going for the cover, to put over the damage he had just taken seconds earlier.

 

A few small things. Joe's short kicks to AJ on the ground were a nice touch. Really put over how much Joe was dominating AJ in the middle portions of the match. AJ's facials after Joe kicked out the clash were perfect. A look of shock and fatigue. Is was almost as if right then, you knew Joe was going to win it.

 

A few suspect things. The 2nd apron spot seemed botched. AJ elbowed Joe away, and then there was an uncomfortable pause, as Joe was clearly expecting a springboard move, while AJ was just standing outside doing nothing. Joe ended up keeping this from being a huge problem, as he went over and kicked AJ as AJ was entering the ring. It ended up coming off like AJ was a bit woozy and wasn't able or willing to go for a springboard spot, and Joe was able to capitalize on that weakness. AJ also messed up the powerbomb to STF combo, as he rolled on his stomach after kicking out of the powerbomb. Joe looked confused for a second, but quickly applied a boston crab instead. Again, Joe kept it from being too big a deal.

 

Overall, this match had a clearly defined story, to go along with believable and generally well executed wrestling. The few mistakes AJ made weren't a big deal in the end, and there weren't any other relevant problems to speak of. Ironically, in many ways, AJ is to thank for this match. We know we're getting fundamentally sound wrestling from Joe. But unlike many past matches, AJ's selling was strong, and his pacing was kept in control by Joe, so the match wasn't dragged down at all. This is probably the 4th best match I've seen this year, and definitely the best AJ Styles match I've ever seen. ****1/4

[hyperchord24 0]

Sting should've showed up. That was very nearly a bait n switch. i don't care if his contract starts on Jan 1, 2006. Geez they should've made it start on Dec 10, 2005.

[Guest BrokenWings]

The 2nd apron spot seemed botched. AJ elbowed Joe away, and then there was an uncomfortable pause, as Joe was clearly expecting a springboard move, while AJ was just standing outside doing nothing. Joe ended up keeping this from being a huge problem, as he went over and kicked AJ as AJ was entering the ring. It ended up coming off like AJ was a bit woozy and wasn't able or willing to go for a springboard spot, and Joe was able to capitalize on that weakness.

 

I didn't think of this as a botch, as much as I thought of it as adding to the story, with AJ out on his feet, not knowing what to do next. Due to him taking too long, Joe took advantage, as you said. Honestly, before AJ tried to step into the ring before Joe kicked him as he entered, it looked as though he couldn't find his balance to step through the ropes properly, costing time.

 

At that point, I thought he had a legit concussion. So either he wasn't there fully mentally, or he deserves commendations for his selling.

[cabbageboy 0]

I might need to watch the match again but I don't really remember any spots where I thought "Oh they fucked that one up." Now, my bias towards this match compared to the 3 way is that I only have seen the 3 way via a download and the picture quality wasn't the greatest.

[World's Worst Man 0]

The 2nd apron spot seemed botched. AJ elbowed Joe away, and then there was an uncomfortable pause, as Joe was clearly expecting a springboard move, while AJ was just standing outside doing nothing. Joe ended up keeping this from being a huge problem, as he went over and kicked AJ as AJ was entering the ring. It ended up coming off like AJ was a bit woozy and wasn't able or willing to go for a springboard spot, and Joe was able to capitalize on that weakness.

 

I didn't think of this as a botch, as much as I thought of it as adding to the story, with AJ out on his feet, not knowing what to do next. Due to him taking too long, Joe took advantage, as you said. Honestly, before AJ tried to step into the ring before Joe kicked him as he entered, it looked as though he couldn't find his balance to step through the ropes properly, costing time.

 

At that point, I thought he had a legit concussion. So either he wasn't there fully mentally, or he deserves commendations for his selling.

 

It looked like AJ screwed up because he either didn't know what to do, or he was too dazed (legit) to do it. Joe managed to save it, so it wasn't a huge deal, but I definitely think the spot wasn't called that way.

[natey2k4 0]

I agree with everything you said. Except you're closeing statement.

It's the second best "wrestling" match and third best match I've seen AJ in.

 

#1 is from Ring of Honor where Paul London faces AJ Styles in a true classic.

 

#2 is from TNA and that would be the Petey Williams v. AJ Styles v. Chris Sabin Ultimate X Match.

 

This is #3.

[Carnival 0]

I just downloaded it. I thought the match was on par with the 3-way if not better. There was a lot more emotion in this one.

 

I thought the long pause with AJ on the apron was a botch/confusion between the two...it turned out fine though. No big deal.

[NoCalMike 0]

I haven't seen the PPV yet and probably won't for another week or so. Can someone go through the ending sequence of the Rhino/Jarrett match for me?

[Astro101 0]

Just saw the match on the ppv. Damn, what a match...I can finally have a real opinion on it now and I thought it was a better match than the last encounter. I'm a novice when it comes to recognizing stories in matches, but I definitely saw a great one in the ring right there. Especially the kickout by Styles at the one count at the end.

[Guest Nathan]

Joe/Styles was on its way to being really good until Styles decided to hulk up and shit on Joe's offense... they could have executed the exact same story without that nonsense.

[Astro101 0]

It wasn't nonsense in my eyes. I thought it added a lot. The fans loved it and the reaction on Samoa's face was fantastic. First it was AJ not giving the respect of a 2 count the move deserved. Then it was like, Samoa wondering what the hell? How could AJ kick out of that move?

[Guest Bulwark]

AJ "Hulks up" out of two moves and gets choked out 3 minutes later... Yeah he sure made Joe look like shit. Did AJ look like shit after Joe kicked out of the Styles Clash?

[World's Worst Man 0]

This so called "hulking up" is a complete non-issue, due to the fact that it wasn't even really "hulking up". AJ just kicked out of a move at 1, yelled, and changed the expression on his face. The fact that he didn't get up and didn't mount any offense of his own means he was still putting over the damage that the moves had done. ie. He wasn't no-selling the moves. That was actually a fine example of how to show the so-called "fighting spirit" without no-selling or delay-selling the opponent's offense.

[Guest Coffey]

AJ "Hulks up" out of two moves and gets choked out 3 minutes later... Yeah he sure made Joe look like shit. Did AJ look like shit after Joe kicked out of the Styles Clash?

Naw, he looked kinda crappy because that Clash could've used some work. I'll give props to Styles though because I didn't think he'd be able to get him up at all.

[ChrisMWaters 0]

AJ "Hulks up" out of two moves and gets choked out 3 minutes later... Yeah he sure made Joe look like shit. Did AJ look like shit after Joe kicked out of the Styles Clash?

Naw, he looked kinda crappy because that Clash could've used some work. I'll give props to Styles though because I didn't think he'd be able to get him up at all.

 

He got D'Amore up for a Styles Clash attempt once.

 

I'm sure D'Amore weighs MUCH more than Samoa Joe, even though most of D'Amore's is in fat.

[Tim Cooke 0]

Watched Joe/Styles last night.

 

I went in hearing Vader/Sting comparisons and lots of Joe brutalizing Styles.

 

It was a good match, maybe the best I have seen in TNA.

 

But there are way too many things that bothered me to call this the best AJ match ever (Rave/Styles ROH streetfight from July 2005 is my favorite Styles match).

 

Why is Styles snap suplexing Joe less than a minute in? It's obvious the story was power vs. speed.

 

Why in the flying fuck is Styles powerbombing Joe? I know it is a spot AJ uses against Joe in past matches (2203 ROH, 2005 PWG) but he shouldn't be powerbombing Joe, even if the story wasn't power vs. speed.

 

Styles kicking out at one definetly wasn't a "no selling" thing. In fact, I don't mind that first one. But when Joe goes and debuts a tiger driver for the first time in TNA, Styles shouldn't be kicking out at 1 for that.

 

What I did like was Joe's 4 minute stretch early on when he just killed Styles. I also liked Styles running away and ducking the strikes, though it didn't lead to the best possible climax with Styles decking Joe to the mat. I also thought the comebacks were cut off nicely for the most part.

 

Structure wise, same problems with all Styles matches. He refuses to do a 3 piece volume to a match. Instead it is:

 

- Styles attacks Joe for 2 minutes

- Joe kills Styles for 4 minutes

- Styles BACK on offense

- Back and forth to the finish.

 

Tim

[World's Worst Man 0]

Was power vs. speed actually shown, or is it just an assumption? I didn't really see a power vs. speed story going on, it was just AJ coming out aggressive and trying to beat some respect into Joe.

 

I'm fairly sure I've seen the tiger driver being used in TNA before, unless you mean the debut of Joe using it. I thought the second kickout was kind of superfluous, but it didn't bug me much. Maybe it's because the ref counted to two, even though AJ kicked out earlier.

 

I'm also fairly sure Joe's control segment was a lot longer than 4 minutes. The match went about 19 minutes (18:55), so if the times you listed were correct, Style's offensive comeback and the back and forth finish went 13 minutes. I think Joe's control segment was more like 7-8 minutes or so.

[Astro101 0]

I didn't see power vs speed. The way the storyline went, I assumed it was the whole beating respect into Joe, while at the same time not showing Joe any respect by hulking up and kicking out quickly.

[Tim Cooke 0]

Meant Joe using tiger driver for the first time, bad writing on my part.

 

Other than the snap suplex and the powerbomb from Styles, the only time he was able to get things together was when he was running around. The sequence where he does his signature rope running sequence which ended with a dropkick on Joe, his dive to the outside, his ducking and weaving sequence all show that story. Even West and Tenay comment on that during this portion.

 

Every time Styles starts to make a comeback, it is based on him being quicker than Joe, though Joe would cut him off after most of them (key exceptions being the kick/slap segment).

 

If Styles was beating respect into him, he sure has the shittiest offense ever to be playing that role.

 

Tim