Why X division is not good at all...

[David Blazenwing 0]

Is that you, Batista?

 

Ha ha ha... same thing I was thinking.

[clean rob 0]

Everyone of you could buy the secrets of the ring series by Raven (unless you think that raven is an idiot or troll or repugnant and pretentious) and you will hear more or less the samne thing you are reading here...

 

Indeed, it's virtually word for word what Raven says. You haven't come up with much yourself, have you? Anyway, let's go through your post...

 

 

I have never read so many bullshit about pro wrestling in all my life.

 

You should try DVDR. And a grammar refresher course.

 

First of all, you can call me "idiot" or "troll" or whatever you want but I am not a self proclaimed smart mark and knowing nothing about pro wrestling...

 

If you aren't a self-proclaimed smart mark, who on this board is?

 

Let me give you a little lesson about pro wrestling:

 

Pro wrestling is built on many factors:

 

Basic psychology:

 

2 guys in the ring, heel vs face (even if is face vs face, one of them takes the heel job),

the heel is shining because he's better or stronger or have more guts.Then the heel cuts off ( most of the time with a cheating move) and he is working on the face.

Then the face makes his comeback with the help of the crowd who is cheering at him.

 

The crowd is as important as the ref or managers, it allows the face to fight back.

 

It means that the wrestlers have to create emotions to make the crowd reacting.

 

That is the basic psychology and the basis of pro wrestling.

 

To create emotions, the face must be shining and show fire in order the crowd says "he is the man!", than the heel must be cheating and vicious in order the crowd says "he's a bastard, come on face kick his ass!" and the face has to sell the moves of the heel in order to make his come back amazing and to make the crowd cheering at him so much more.

 

This is all true. However, for you to pinpoint the X division as the only place where guys don't know how to work this formula correctly is ludicrous.

 

In pro wrestling, you have play the roles and the emotions so well to make people(and especially the kids) think that it could be real.

To create this, you have to do realistic moves and have to sell it as well.

You have to do moves that are related to your size, I mean a cruiser has to do cruiser moves and a heavyweight has to do heavyweight moves in order to respect the active wrestlers and the legends.

Doing plenty of moves to beat your opponent make your moves look fake as they are not efficient, you look weak and make the business fake.

 

Like Hogan, Rock et al? IMO, the business looks more fake when a guy starts no-selling punches or not pinning a guy when your spinebuster puts them out for 20+ seconds than when say, Petey Williams does a Canadian Destroyer. Pro wrestling has its own set of rules within its self-contained reality, where irish whips work and going to the top rope to do a move isn't really really stupid. What makes the business look fake is when these rules get broken, not when a lot of moves are performed during a match. Would you say WM3 made Steamboat and Savage look fake and inefficient because they did more than five moves each?

 

As for the whole 'looking weak' argument, that's swings and roundabouts. Doesn't it make the guys look weak when they get pinned after taking just a few moves?

 

[

i]Your matches have to be built on a ring psychology and real storytelling depending on the feud and the storylines.

 

The characters need to entertain the crowd, lik I said they need to give emotions, so you never ever have to just come into the ring, do 30 moves and get out of here just like this, people will say "yeah, not bad...what's next?".

 

I have desribed quickly what pro wrestling is. Pro wrestling is a drama, it is a play.

Pro wrestling is not just stunt or circus performance. The moves are not important, the most important is the emotions you give.[/i]

 

They're both important. The moves are there to build the emotions around and to get a crowd response, hence why heels tend to use slow methodical moves (crowd: boo!) and faces tend to use quick, exciting flashy moves (crowd: yay! that guy is good!). To use a rough analogy, an actor needs to emote to elicit a response from an audience, and it is this that will really allow them to connect, but their words and actions are important too, otherwise they're just standing there emoting.

 

Once you have understood that, you know what is pro wrestling.

 

And as you can see, X division is not pro wrestling as there is no psychology, no storytelling, no characters, no selling...it is just moves and spots to entertain the crowd.

 

None at all? This type of hyperbole won't win you any arguments after the age of 5. Are some of those elements lacking in many X Division matches? Certainly - and in plenty of other matches too. However, I have yet to see a single X-Dic match with none of those elements at all.

 

But remember something important:

You will forever remember Hogan, Savage, the undertaker, the rock, austin, triple h because they were giving emotions but as soon as new stunt performers doing better and more spectacular moves than styles or samoa joe or daniels will appear, you will forget immediatly the current x division roster.

 

There already are guys doing better and more spectacular moves. And even you still remember Styles, Joe et al.

 

So, I am probably an idiot or a troll,

 

No, I don't think you are.

 

but I know pro wrestling...

 

I'm not so sure.

[Corey_Lazarus 0]

Everyone of you could buy the secrets of the ring series by Raven (unless you think that raven is an idiot or troll or repugnant and pretentious)

Ah...so this explains your stance. I guess you don't read Raven's rants/blog on his site, do you? I remember an old one where Raven talks about the negative aspects of spotfests...and then says that although they lack psychology and fans won't remember them for very long, they DO have their place in wrestling (to get the fans wound up)..

 

So, in other words, you're completely missing Raven's points about spotfests and high-flying workers. He knows that they have their place in wrestling, but he also knows they won't be anywhere near the main event of a respected promotion unless the workers can either develop characters or throw psychology into the match.

 

Also, the fact that you can't see some basic psychology in the X-Division makes me think that you don't actually GET what psychology. I'd explain the little bits of psychology right now (like how Bentley's whole schtick is that he acts like his older cousin, Shawn Michaels, in order to makes himself seem bigger/better than he is, a way of intimidating his opponents; or how your average psychology-devoid spotfests actually has its OWN form of psychology based on topping one another's moves), but I have to go to work in 5 minutes.

[Guest TFP]

You should try DVDR. And a grammar refresher course.

 

Sorry, I am not english so that's why my english is not that good...

 

Indeed, it's virtually word for word what Raven says. You haven't come up with much yourself, have you? Anyway, let's go through your post...

 

If you know people who really practise and perform pro wrestling or if you are yourself in a pro wrestling promotion, you will hear this kind of speech and it is most of the time more or less the same words...

 

If you aren't a self-proclaimed smart mark, who on this board is?

 

Simple reasons : I love wwe and I think X division and ROH cruiser division is stunt wrestling...so I am not a self proclaimed smart mark, and I defenitly think that pro wrestling is basically a kid and family program. Smart marks in pro wrestling are the same guys you find in rock shows who love rock band until they become famous and say after it "that's commercial so that's shit!"...Exactly the same way of thinking, just a load of bullshits and nonsenses...

 

However, for you to pinpoint the X division as the only place where guys don't know how to work this formula correctly is ludicrous.

 

You are right there are plenty of places where you see no psychology/no storytelling wrestling shows but X Division typified this wrestling "new wave"...

 

 

when say, Petey Williams does a Canadian Destroyer

 

One of the fakest moves in pro wrestling...

 

Doesn't it make the guys look weak when they get pinned after taking just a few moves?

 

Defenitly not...

 

The moves are there to build the emotions around and to get a crowd response, hence why heels tend to use slow methodical moves (crowd: boo!) and faces tend to use quick, exciting flashy moves (crowd: yay! that guy is good!). To use a rough analogy, an actor needs to emote to elicit a response from an audience, and it is this that will really allow them to connect, but their words and actions are important too, otherwise they're just standing there emoting.

 

I agree with that...

 

None at all? This type of hyperbole won't win you any arguments after the age of 5

 

I would not say never but most of the time...X Division bookers know that what this pecific type of viewers called "smart marks" like moves, bumps, technical moves, so the bookers tell their wrestlers to do as much moves and spots as possible because the X Division viewers don't care or don't know what is psychology, selling or storytelling.

 

There already are guys doing better and more spectacular moves. And even you still remember Styles, Joe et al.

 

Just a matter of time...remember billy kidman, amazing at the beginning and then everybody was doing big flips so he has been forgotten...

 

I'm not so sure.

 

I would say that I know few more things than the average fan...

 

Also, the fact that you can't see some basic psychology in the X-Division makes me think that you don't actually GET what psychology. I'd explain the little bits of psychology right now (like how Bentley's whole schtick is that he acts like his older cousin, Shawn Michaels, in order to makes himself seem bigger/better than he is, a way of intimidating his opponents; or how your average psychology-devoid spotfests actually has its OWN form of psychology based on topping one another's moves), but I have to go to work in 5 minutes.

 

Like you said, they have their place for sure! but as openers and not as they a re pushed in TNA. TNA make people believe that those guys are able to fight for the biggest championship.

I am glad to know that there is psychology in X Division...But they defenitly not show it anyway...

I can't wait you give me a lesson of basic psychology...

[clean rob 0]

Simple reasons : I love wwe and I think X division and ROH cruiser division is stunt wrestling...so I am not a self proclaimed smart mark, and I defenitly think that pro wrestling is basically a kid and family program. Smart marks in pro wrestling are the same guys you find in rock shows who love rock band until they become famous and say after it "that's commercial so that's shit!"...Exactly the same way of thinking, just a load of bullshits and nonsenses...

 

As far as I'm aware, a 'smart mark' means someone who enjoys wrestling (a mark) but has at least a basic grasp of how the business side of pro wrestling works e.g. that the matches are predetermined, certain wrestlers are booked in specific ways to make them look good etc. etc. That's it. It's got nothing to do with what company or style you prefer. I still enjoy WWE and watch it nearly every week - more than TNA. But that's got nothing to do with it. Although I'm quite sure many people on the internet do bash the WWE just because it's the big corporate commercial machine etc., that in itself does not make them 'smart marks'.

 

 

You are right there are plenty of places where you see no psychology/no storytelling wrestling shows but X Division typified this wrestling "new wave"...

 

There's nothing 'new wave' about crappy storytelling and crappy psychology. There have been matches like that as far back as I can remember (which is only as far as the mid 80s, but still...you see my point.)

 

when say, Petey Williams does a Canadian Destroyer

 

One of the fakest moves in pro wrestling...

 

Yes, it is the number one fakest move in pro wrestling - in joint first with the irish whip, the sunset flip, the vertical suplex, the 'up and over', the hurracanrana, the moonsault, the press slam, yadda yadda yadda. Like I said, you have to suspend your disbelief for an awful lot of moves considered 'realistic' within the confines of a pro wrestling match - they work because wrestling has it's own set of 'reality rules' - that's why stuff tlike the CD works within a match.

 

Doesn't it make the guys look weak when they get pinned after taking just a few moves?

 

Defenitly not...

 

Care to expand on that? I remember watching Hogan matches as a child where he would fight some big, mean looking guy who would end up getting pinned after being punched a few times, kicked once and legdropped once. Even when i was very young this seemed kind of pathetic - most guys in films I had seen needed to be beaten up a lot more than that before they lost. IMO, it makes wrestlers look tougher when they take more moves before getting beaten. That way the wrestlers are put over as being difficult to pin rather than the moves themselves being able to beat anybody.

 

Just a matter of time...remember billy kidman, amazing at the beginning and then everybody was doing big flips so he has been forgotten...

 

a) I never watched WCW, but I'm sure very few people ever claimed Kidman was more than a decent-good worker.

b) I still remember Billy Kidman. So do you actually!

[Guest TFP]

Hogan is an exception in pro wrestling, he was able to make people standing up or sitting down with a wrestling ability close to zero but anyway he is still the biggest legend in pro wrestling...I understand what you say about how many moves to take.

For sure I don't really like the 80's pro wrestling as it was slow and the mat skills were really low but it was based on big guys who got charisma and who knew how to make the people reacting to them.

The best part of wrestling history was defenitly during the monday night wars.

 

I love to see moves and technical moves and I love to see chain wrestling which is a really british thing and for sure plenty of them are excellent in X Division but the fact that there are so many moves in each match does not make believe in a story.

 

You need moves, spots, chain etc to make a great match but too much of them kill the match. I mean, with the skills that those guys got, with some drama lessons, they could give us a so much more better show...

 

Talking about moves that look real and other that look fake, take an example:

 

If I fight against you in a street and if I give you a spear, a spine buster, a ankle lock, a sleeper hold it will be efficient and I can do it even if you don't want it but there is no way on earth that I could give you a canadian destroyer!

That is the difference between a real and fake move.

But you are right when you are talking about irish whip because of course there are choregraphy in pro wrestling but you have also to be close from reality and the X Division is very very far from reality as you could not stand up after 15 slams just like you were fresh...

 

 

 

But I want to repeat it once again, the problem is the concept of the X Division...

[clean rob 0]

... the fact that there are so many moves in each match does not make believe in a story.

 

You need moves, spots, chain etc to make a great match but too much of them kill the match.

 

Not necessarily. You can still tell a story while doing a lot of different moves. Depending on the crowd and the backstory to the match, maybe you shouln't use too many different moves, or alternatively maybe you should. The art lies in gauging how best to suck the audience into the story you're trying to tell.

 

Talking about moves that look real and other that look fake, take an example:

 

If I fight against you in a street and if I give you a spear, a spine buster, a ankle lock, a sleeper hold it will be efficient and I can do it even if you don't want it but there is no way on earth that I could give you a canadian destroyer!

 

...or a powerbomb, or a chokeslam, or a pedigree, or a diamond cutter, or a hundred other moves in pro wrestling that are clearly choreographed to anyone with a sense of reality. If you're going to take umbridge at one implausible move in wrestling, then you might as well go for the whole lot.

 

But you are right when you are talking about irish whip because of course there are choregraphy in pro wrestling but you have also to be close from reality and the X Division is very very far from reality as you could not stand up after 15 slams just like you were fresh...

 

You quite clearly can, as I've seen it happen many a time. You just shouldn't, as it's no-selling, something that is just as widespread (if not more so) outside of the X-division than within it.

 

 

But I want to repeat it once again, the problem is the concept of the X Division...

 

The concept being what, exactly?

[RedJed 0]

All I'm going to say is this - if you think the X division is just spot after spot with no purpose and zero pychology, PLEASE check out Styles/Joe from last weekend.

[Corey_Lazarus 0]

You can't wait for me to give a lesson to you in basic psychology? Okay. Here it goes, as far as I understand (from chatting with local indy workers, and from my years as a fan)...

 

1. Engaging the crowd

The most important aspect of psychology is to make the crowd, be they live or viewing at home, get into your match. You can do this subtley, by throwing in several barely-noticeable gestures or demeanors (ie. Foley, Raven, Funk), or do it overtly, by performing either a tremendous chainwrestling sequence (ie. American Dragon, Benoit, Malenko) or a highspot (ie. Amazing Red, Jack Evans, Sabin).

 

2. Suspension of disbelief

After properly making the fans interested in your match, you must make them forget that professional wrestling is fake. You can do this by either continuously keeping them wanting to see what you will do next (as is the case with most spotfests), by making your match seem very realistic (working stiff), by being that entertaining (Hogan, Austin, Rock, etc.), or by long-term and short-term selling (Benoit, the late Eddie Guerrero, and others of the technician ilk).

 

3. Selling (long-term and short-term)

Now that the fans forget that wrestling is fake, it's time to make them question whether or not parts of it are REALLY real. Some masters of the art of long-term selling would be the various Japanese workers in the mid-1990's that churned out classic after classic (Misawa, Kawada, Kobashi, etc.), Chris Benoit, Eddie Guerrero, and Bret Hart. For example, by limping when you walk after taking a series of moves to your left knee, you can plant the idea in the fans' heads that you are truly injured (despite that you are not), and will then change your moveset to accomodate your weakened limb. Short-term selling masters are often smaller workers that can bump very good and make individual moves seem more powerful than they are (Rob Van Dam, Amazing Red, and even The Rock are masters of short-term selling). By even just grabbing your back and wincing after being bodyslammed, exaggerating it more if the move occurs later in the match, then the fans will believe, again, that you might be injured, and that your opponent has a better chance of winning once you've suspended their disbelief. Long-term selling is what the majority of wrestlers lack thanks the growing popularity of spotfests and what WWE has considered "great matches" for the last 20 years.

 

4. Strategy

It makes little-to-no sense for a wrestler whose finish focuses on his opponent's neck to be doing legwork (the exception being that their opponent is very fast in the ring, and takes to the top rope often) throughout the match. It makes equally less sense for a wrestler larger and stronger than his opponent to try to take to the top rope outside of proving to his opponent that he, too, can fly (it wouldn't make sense for Kane to attempt a flying elbow drop against Shawn Michaels, for instance, as Kane would not need a high-risk maneuver to put away somebody that gives up nearly a foot in height, and likely well over 100 pounds in weight, to him).

 

...you know what? It's fucking 1:35 in the morning, I gotta be up at 9 to get my ass to the garage so I can get my new car inspected, have gotten maybe - MAYBE - 12 hours of sleep in the last 3 days, and have band practice for a good portion of tomorrow afternoon. You're wrong, we're right, spotfests ARE professional wrestling but just aren't your standard "oooh, punch/kick" bull.

 

I do have a BIG question for you, though:

Who is better, in your opinion, at the art of professional wrestling: Kurt Angle or Christopher Daniels? Why?

(And yes, this is an important question to determine how you think about what constitutes pro wrestling.)

[World's Worst Man 0]

4. Strategy

It makes little-to-no sense for a wrestler whose finish focuses on his opponent's neck to be doing legwork (the exception being that their opponent is very fast in the ring, and takes to the top rope often) throughout the match.

Leg-work is its own reward, meaning that it's always useful. If you take a guy's leg out, he's obviously at a huge disadvantage. Your statement might apply to something like arm work, which is less useful than leg work, unless there's a specific reason for it.

 

I do have a BIG question for you, though:

Who is better, in your opinion, at the art of professional wrestling: Kurt Angle or Christopher Daniels? Why?

(And yes, this is an important question to determine how you think about what constitutes pro wrestling.)

 

This could get fun, since Kurt Angle is the best way to weed out the hypocrites. Certain people like to bitch about indy workers being spotty, then turn around and call Angle a great worker. Hell, nevermind Daniels, since it's quite arguable whether he's really good or not. But I bet if you asked "Who's better at pro-wrestling, Samoa Joe or Kurt Angle?" you'd still have people picking Angle.

[King Cucaracha 0]

I love people who complain about restholds and then go all gooey-eyed when Angle uses that bodyscissors move of his for 70% of a match, then claim that it was MOTY (ie, vs. Jannetty on Smackdown).

[TheInsane 0]

I only read the first post here and he does have good points I think. Some guys in the x-division are just terrible (Im looking at you Sonjay Dutt). Spot, spot, spot... Oh Im supposed to actually feel pain? Is this really a sport to resemble combat? He's awful in that aspect. This is also the problem with alot of undercard wrestlers in ROH when I used to watch tht (lat year and the year before). Guys like Special K were only glorified gymnasts not wrestlers.

 

However the X-division is of extreme importance to TNA and they do have awesome wrestlers that I feel can tell a story. Joe of course but also Daniels, Sabin, Strong, Shelley and AJ. However I feel that some guys focus WAY to much time on just doing the high spots and not actually try to make it look like combat. Watch the Raven shoot interview and he explains the same thing but in a better way than I.

 

Restholds arent fun if used to much. And there is a big difference between restholds and submissions. One awesome match I have seen from ROH is Low Ki vs Danielson. Its all based on submissions but its competative stuff. Its not holds they use to catch their breath or anything. They use it in a competative way and really try to end the match. Thats what some people seem to miss. Alot of people complain if a matchs has many submission attempts but there is a vast difference between submissions and rest holds.

 

Another thing is no-selling. Its good if done right. I ahte it when guys forget that they need to sell (Mr Dutt) or when they no sell all the time (Undertaker in the early 90ies). However it can be very effective as well. Im a big fan of NOAH and they can really do it to perfection when a guy like Kobashi gets a second win and starts to no sell for a short while. Seemingly getting superman strength. It really adds to the drama and the audience goes wild. If its done all the time it loses its impact though and makes nothing count.

[Guest DuDe]

This could get fun, since Kurt Angle is the best way to weed out the hypocrites. Certain people like to bitch about indy workers being spotty, then turn around and call Angle a great worker. Hell, nevermind Daniels, since it's quite arguable whether he's really good or not. But I bet if you asked "Who's better at pro-wrestling, Samoa Joe or Kurt Angle?" you'd still have people picking Angle.

 

If by "pro-wrestling" you also factor in mic-work then yeah, I would choose Angle over Joe any day of the week. Joe may be more agile and faster than Angle, but Angle absolutely destroys him on the microphone, not to mention that he's still pulling moonsaults at the age of 37 with a neck full of injuries.

[World's Worst Man 0]

Considering this thread has nothing to do with mic skills, and is all about in-ring ability, I would argue that it's a rather irrelevant point to bring up at this time. And regardless, even if Angle destroys Joe on the mic, Joe destroys Angle in the ring. And how much time is spent talking, and how much time is spent in the ring?

[cabbageboy 0]

Joe right now has a huge advantage over pretty much everyone: He looks like he's beating the shit out of someone. If you're going to do a punch and kick style, DO a punch and kick style. Joe's basic kicks make me cringe like "Oh God he is going to KILL AJ here!" Joe is the best argument to "Wrestling looks fake" since nothing he does looks too fake to me.

 

I'd like to see Joe vs. a motivated RVD, with Rob not pulling his kicks and not giving a shit whether he busts Joe open or not.

[TheInsane 0]

2. Suspension of disbelief

After properly making the fans interested in your match, you must make them forget that professional wrestling is fake. You can do this by either continuously keeping them wanting to see what you will do next (as is the case with most spotfests), by making your match seem very realistic (working stiff), by being that entertaining (Hogan, Austin, Rock, etc.), or by long-term and short-term selling (Benoit, the late Eddie Guerrero, and others of the technician ilk).

 

This is the most important point out of all I think. To really drag fans into what you're doing and making it realistic in the contex of things. Its like the "back to the future" movies being realistic in its own way. Sure you cant travel through time but if you could those movies could be very realistic. The same applies for wrestling. I think this is what alot of independent wrestling lacks. In the organisation we talk about here I think Sonjay Dutt is a good example on how to NOT perform as a pro-wrestler. He is awful. In ROH most of Special K were of this kind (in 03 and 04) etc. The X-division is of HUGE importance to TNA I think. However they need to train their wrestlers in the art of suspension of disbelief. With this being said I think the most important part of suspension of disbelief is to know when and how to sell a move or an injury. I really think that is the key to good wresling.

[Guest DuDe]

Considering this thread has nothing to do with mic skills, and is all about in-ring ability, I would argue that it's a rather irrelevant point to bring up at this time.

This thread didn't have much to do with Angle or his style until you brought it up. As a matter of fact, comparing two wrestelrs with such vastly different wrestling styles is also irrelevant, and yet you still do it, right? Mic-working on the other hand is just as much an essential part of a proffesional wrestler as his in-ring abilities, hell, the most famous wrestler of all times has little to no in-ring abilities. That's exactly why TNA will never become as big as WWE if they go on with the style that they have now. They have great performers that can pull awesome moves, and yet their acting is shitty and they have little to no character, and Average Joe doesn't care about them.

 

And regardless, even if Angle destroys Joe on the mic, Joe destroys Angle in the ring.

That's a matter of opinion, as (like I said before) Angle's wrestling style is not even similar to Joe's. Joe can do rough browling better than Angle, and yet Angle is far better than Joe as far as chain wrestling and technical skills go. He's also a better seller.

Edited December 17, 2005 by DuDe

[Guest Coffey]

That's why the question was posed. If you think Angle is a better worker than Joe, you don't understand the importantance and psychology and selling.

 

Even working "WWE style" Angle still, well, isn't a world-class pro-wrestler. His offense, a lot the time, doesn't make sense. His "popup" moves, like the get knocked down hop up to hit a top rope spot can tkae the flow out of a match.

 

I mean, you can say it's a matter of opinion but it's really not. You might prefer Angle to Joe but you're just looking for different things.

[Jacques 0]

Joe right now has a huge advantage over pretty much everyone: He looks like he's beating the shit out of someone. If you're going to do a punch and kick style, DO a punch and kick style. Joe's basic kicks make me cringe like "Oh God he is going to KILL AJ here!" Joe is the best argument to "Wrestling looks fake" since nothing he does looks too fake to me.

He looks like he's beating the shit out of someone because he IS beating the shit out of someone. That's why Joe's match aginst Raven sucked and IMO he won't look half as good if he was wrestling in WWE or in TNA's main event scene. X/ROH/Indy guys are used to taking headdrops and getting kicked flush in the face. Do you think guys like Angle, Triple H, Michaels, Jarrett, Cena, Monty, Raven, Christian etc will take all those brutal kicks or Muscle Buster from Joe? These guys are from the Bret Hart school of protecting your opponent and making it look like a real fight without doing shit like splitting your opponent's upper lip in two(vs AJ), or dropping them on their neck almost crippling them(vs Bentley). That IMO is the real art of pro wrestling.

[TheInsane 0]

He looks like he's beating the shit out of someone because he IS beating the shit out of someone. That's why Joe's match aginst Raven sucked and IMO he won't look half as good if he was wrestling in WWE or in TNA's main event scene. X/ROH/Indy guys are used to taking headdrops and getting kicked flush in the face. Do you think guys like Angle, Triple H, Michaels, Jarrett, Cena, Monty, Raven, Christian etc will take all those brutal kicks or Muscle Buster from Joe? These guys are from the Bret Hart school of protecting your opponent and making it look like a real fight without doing shit like splitting your opponent's upper lip in two(vs AJ), or dropping them on their neck almost crippling them(vs Bentley). That IMO is the real art of pro wrestling.

 

The match vs AJ was bound for injury. Both men played up on the hatred and it was alot stiffer than the usual Joe match. You know Joe suffered injuries in that one as well. It was meant to be more dangerous. In other cases I havent heard that Joe hurts people more than othe rpeople do. Sure he is stiff but I'd like to quote William Regal here; "I hit hard in safe places". I dont think Joe is a danger to work with. Sure you're sore but most often its nothing dangerous. The most dangerous athlete in TNA today is probably Skipper who botch so much every time he is out there. I thin Joe can still be stiff in the heavyweight division in TNA. It wont work in WWE though since they have a certain policy regarding the style people should use in the ring.

[Jacques 0]

The match vs AJ was bound for injury. Both men played up on the hatred and it was alot stiffer than the usual Joe match. You know Joe suffered injuries in that one as well. It was meant to be more dangerous. In other cases I havent heard that Joe hurts people more than othe rpeople do. Sure he is stiff but I'd like to quote William Regal here; "I hit hard in safe places". I dont think Joe is a danger to work with. Sure you're sore but most often its nothing dangerous. The most dangerous athlete in TNA today is probably Skipper who botch so much every time he is out there. I thin Joe can still be stiff in the heavyweight division in TNA. It wont work in WWE though since they have a certain policy regarding the style people should use in the ring.

Atleast Elix Skipper doesn't intentionally stiffs up his opponent. And since when is getting dropped on your neck/kicked in your head considered safe? Joe has three moves where his opponent can easily get crippled, Muscle Buster(Bentley), snap powerslam(Necro Butcher) and corner STO.

 

BTW I like Joe's matches. But I think it's retarded when people say that Angle isn't as good as Joe because he does things like hitting the pop-up superplex when Joe is ignoring the first rule of pro-wrestling - protecting your opponent. And please don't give me the argument about Punk saying he is a safe worker. What else do you expect Joe's best friend to say?

[Guest Coffey]

One could make the argument that American wrestlers are trained to look pretty instead of getting into "don't get fucked up when wrestling" shape. Look at Japan and all the neck drops compared to injuries ratio. Some people are just better conditioned for certain bumps. Kawada doesn't look like a Greek god chisled out of stone like Randy Orton but whom is presented as more of a badass? Who's had more injuries compared to their time wrestling? My point being you're trained to wrestle with what you're around. Joe has worked Japan and ROH which mimics Japan. Obviously his style is going to resemble Strong Style moreso than WWE Kick-Punch-Finish.

[Dangerous A 0]

These guys are from the Bret Hart school of protecting your opponent and making it look like a real fight without doing shit like splitting your opponent's upper lip in two(vs AJ), or dropping them on their neck almost crippling them(vs Bentley). That IMO is the real art of pro wrestling.

 

 

Really? Cause a week ago I just watched a Benoit/Regal match where Benoit head butted Regal to the point where both men were opened up hard way and Regal and Benoit are two of the best pro's out there.

 

Hate to bring up the "this ain't ballet" bit, but if you look at everyone's closet, you are going to find skeletons. This argument that WWE guys don't hurt themselves vs the rest of the world is bullshit. Everyone who has any length of time in this business hurts someone, often times intentionally.

[Jacques 0]

One could make the argument that American wrestlers are trained to look pretty instead of getting into "don't get fucked up when wrestling" shape. Look at Japan and all the neck drops compared to injuries ratio. Some people are just better conditioned for certain bumps. Kawada doesn't look like a Greek god chisled out of stone like Randy Orton but whom is presented as more of a badass? Who's had more injuries compared to their time wrestling?

Kawada doesn't wrestle 3 or 4 times every week does he? Do you think he will still be the same if he was getting headdropped 10 times a week whole year? I think not.

[Jacques 0]

These guys are from the Bret Hart school of protecting your opponent and making it look like a real fight without doing shit like splitting your opponent's upper lip in two(vs AJ), or dropping them on their neck almost crippling them(vs Bentley). That IMO is the real art of pro wrestling.

 

 

Really? Cause a week ago I just watched a Benoit/Regal match where Benoit head butted Regal to the point where both men were opened up hard way and Regal and Benoit are two of the best pro's out there.

 

Hate to bring up the "this ain't ballet" bit, but if you look at everyone's closet, you are going to find skeletons. This argument that WWE guys don't hurt themselves vs the rest of the world is bullshit. Everyone who has any length of time in this business hurts someone, often times intentionally.

If you look real close I didn't actually included either Regal or Benoit in my list, and they only have stiff matches against each other.

[RedJed 0]

One could make the argument that American wrestlers are trained to look pretty instead of getting into "don't get fucked up when wrestling" shape. Look at Japan and all the neck drops compared to injuries ratio. Some people are just better conditioned for certain bumps. Kawada doesn't look like a Greek god chisled out of stone like Randy Orton but whom is presented as more of a badass? Who's had more injuries compared to their time wrestling?

Kawada doesn't wrestle 3 or 4 times every week does he? Do you think he will still be the same if he was getting headdropped 10 times a week whole year? I think not.

 

Kawada most certainly works 3-4 dates a year, since he is not under contract to any certain organization. Even if he was, he would still be working 3-4 dates a week though for AJPW. That point from Coffey definately holds some major credence on the topic here.

[Jacques 0]

But wrestling in US and Japan are totally different. Joe would totally be in his elements in Japan as everybody is used to getting stiff kicks and head drops but the wrestlers in US, especially heavyweights aren't used to that.

[Guest Coffey]

That's why Joe's been working with Styles & Daniels. Joe can't just up and change his style and moveset overnight. Styles and Daniels know what's coming and they can take it and dish it back. They've both worked ROH and overseas.

[Jacques 0]

That's why Joe's been working with Styles & Daniels. Joe can't just up and change his style and moveset overnight. Styles and Daniels know what's coming and they can take it and dish it back. They've both worked ROH and overseas.

That's what I'm saying man. Joe's looking like a million bucks because cruisers are taking all his stiff stuff, they are used to it. I don't think Joe can produce the same caliber of matches if he goes to the main event level against heavyweights because they won't take it.

[Guest Coffey]

Depends on whom he's against in the main event division. He can slap the Kokina Clutch on anyone. I'm more than sure that he can have a good match with damn near anyone too.

 

I mean, if Jarrett is willing to take table bumps and shit in a match with Rhyno, he can take a couple kicks.