Why X division is not good at all...

[Dangerous A 0]

UWF-i was a worked shoot promotion in Japan. They did a ppv that aired in the U.S. that had Lou Thesz do some announcing for the matches. It's basically MMA/Pride style fighting except the outcome is predetermined. The strikes are very stiff and the men who worked there were some of the greatest workers I've ever seen. It's not for everyone. I've heard the argument that if people want to watch that style, they'd just go the full tilt and watch UFC or Pride and have it be a shoot. Still, to make the fights look as good as they did, takes a lot of skill and professionalism (staying within the context of a work and not shooting in the middle of the match because a guy tagged you stiff during a match) to pull off.

[Cowboy Battlenuts 0]

as he kept referring to us as "smart marks" therefore taking himself out of that particular group

 

Dude, the forum is called thesmartmarks. That shouldn't be too hard to figure out.

 

He even complimented certain favorites of this folder. It just seems like anyone who wants to come in here to share a negative opinion about the fed get's automatically called a troll before people even hear him out.

Edited December 15, 2005 by Battlenuts

[USC Wuz Robbed! 0]

as he kept referring to us as "smart marks" therefore taking himself out of that particular group

 

Dude, the forum is called thesmartmarks. That shouldn't be too hard to figure out.

 

He even complimented certain favorites of this folder. It just seems like anyone who wants to come in here to share a negative opinion about the fed get's automatically called a troll before people even hear him out.

 

HE SAID IT WAS NOT PROFESSIONAL WRESTLING. Anyone with that mindset doesn't deserve respect. Stop defending him.

[Guest Coffey]

Dude, the forum is called thesmartmarks. That shouldn't be too hard to figure out.

Are you fucking retarded? Jesus Christ. Saying we're "so called Smart Marks" is a derrogatory comment. He could've just as easily said "y'all don't know what the fuck you're talking about, quit acting like you do. Here's how it is..." He's trying to put himself ABOVE everyone else by labeling us and leaving him excluded. That's the definition of a troll.

 

Why would you defend him? Fuck it, let's just get someone to close this ignorant thread.

[Cowboy Battlenuts 0]

Yeah no reason to try and build an actual debate....

 

I would like to drop that message on this forum as it supposed to be the "smart marks" forum.

 

Seems more like a minor attempt at being clever than an insult, and I don't see how responding with an insult would be any better.

 

Is it possible this guy just felt like discussing TNA and did so? Why does he have to be labeled a "troll"? This forum is for TNA discussion not a haven for fanboys that anyone with a differing opinion should run from. I understand someone just coming in and saying 'tna sux eat dick' but the guy brought up a common problem with the wrestling, how poorly he did it shouldn't matter for anyone looking for discussion and not some pissing contest.

 

Some people think it comes off as overly choreographed, is that gonna hurt the product? Does it deviate from the basic concept of pro wrestling in some ways? Why do threads have to turn into group shit fests rather than actual discussions? Are there not enough good posters? I don't think so.

[USC Wuz Robbed! 0]

So a guy comes in here, posts a new topic that says "You're supposed to be smarks, but god, how can you like Chris Benoit and Kurt Angle? They come off too choreographed on the mat! Real pro wrestling is when you just punch and kick because that's like real fighting!", we're supposed to discuss it? When someone posts a stupider than hell thread about something he showed little to no understanding for, he's going to get shit on. Simple as that.

Edited December 15, 2005 by Porter

[Cowboy Battlenuts 0]

He raised discussable points, who cares what extreme he took it to. Why can't there just be a discussion on that rather than how he conducted himself or what we assume his intentions were? What does "shitting" on him accomplish?

[World's Worst Man 0]

Andre the Giant circa 1990, Tiger Jeet Singh and Abdullah the Butcher were great workers.

 

Oh, and this guy is clearly a troll. You can tell by the little comments like "The X division is praised as a kind of a revolution in pro wrestling by self proclaimed "smart marks"." And then there's the factually false statements like "We have a succession of moves, and the performers seem not to feel any pain, there is no(or really bad) selling!". So yea, it's not worth debating a guy who's obviously working a gimmick, trying to get people to waste their time actually debating his (laughable) points.

[USC Wuz Robbed! 0]

He raised discussable points, who cares what extreme he took it to. Why can't there just be a discussion on that rather than how he conducted himself or what we assume his intentions were? What does "shitting" on him accomplish?

 

If someone made a similar thread as he did, but being more knowledgable and civil about it, the thread would have two pages of intelligent (hopefully) discussion about it. However the way he went about it sealed the fate of HIS thread.

Edited December 15, 2005 by Porter

[Guest Leelee]

How come this guy got called a troll and idiot right off the bat when he didn't insult anyone?

 

Because the moderators here have dictated that you MUST speak positively of not-WWE.

 

While I agree with his opinion of most X-Division matches, he was trolling. The first 3 lines of his commentary cemented that. Other than that, he was fine. But, repetitive. Maybe not here in TNA-Land, but at most other wrestling congregations.

[USC Wuz Robbed! 0]

He is a newcomer. It's like if you had a job interview with your prospective boss, and you came in shooting off things about how his company sucks and etc. Even if you said it with good intention, wanting to improve it, do you think he would hire you or take you seriously?

 

Now I'm not comparing TSM to having a job, but that's the analogy that I can think of.

[2GOLD 0]

Triple H has FINALLY arrived.

We love you Paul.

[Guest Coffey]

I'm all for discussing TNA. I've done it for a long time now. I've had discussions about the negative aspects of the promotion moreso than the positives, I'm sure.

 

It's certainly not going to happen in this thread, though. The thread was presented wrong. It wasn't presented as a "let's discuss" thread, it was presented as a "you're all idiots" thread, by a new poster. That means he's a troll.

 

He probably won't even be back....

 

To be honest, when I see Battlenuts and his twenty-three posts defending TFP, I thought something was up since they were both new. Then I see they both registered on the same day and I instantly become more suspect.

 

Whatever, you can defend him to your hearts content, we'll all just ignore him until he goes away. Just like we did with MikeSC.

[Adam 0]

Triple H has FINALLY arrived.

We love you Paul.

 

My first thought as well.

[RHR 0]

And out of the rafters, IT IS I, RHR!

 

Shit, I am usually really busy, and never have the chance to post, so yeah, I lurk, ALOT. But, this guy's post kinda got me all ARRRRRGGGGGDDDDD up. Seriously, it may be Vince posting on TSM finally.

 

Look, Professional Wrestling is more than one thing. It can be steroid muscled freaks throwing fake punches, it can be women in lingerie, in can be midgets flipping around like Yoda in Ep. II and III, it can be what ever the fans and audience will pay to see, both with money and time.

 

THAT is why I liked Bret Hart.

 

THAT is why I liked Hogan.

 

THAT is why I liked Mick Foley.

 

THAT is why I liked Ric Flair.

 

Davey Boy, Steamboat, Funk, Rock, Austin, Michaels, etc etc etc...

 

They all have a degree of different styles, and, it works together.

 

One man's shit, is another man's manure, my friend. To each his own. And other various cliches.

 

So, go watch your Hogan DVD, and worship at the Batista alter if you like. I'll stay over here where the HEART and the ACTION is.

 

See ya.

[razazteca 0]

I have a question....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Was that John Cena?!?!?!

[Cowboy Battlenuts 0]

ANY thread can create a discussion, all it takes is someone to throw out a topic in anyway and people discussing that topic. Intentions or purpose shouldn't get in the way of good discussion.

 

To be honest, when I see Battlenuts and his twenty-three posts defending TFP, I thought something was up since they were both new. Then I see they both registered on the same day and I instantly become more suspect.

 

Don't you feel kind of dumb having that paranoia? We're both new posters speaking in the same thread so automatically we're in cahoots? Kind of over-dramatic don't you think?

 

Forget trolls and instigators, if good points are made in a thread, discuss the good points, focus on the discussion that might spring up rather than the small immature shit that would bring it down.

[randomguy 0]

I don't agree with the strength of the claims, but there is a grain of truth.

 

I have a certain level of suspension of disbelief, but I don't like it when the stuff going on is just TOO fake looking. For example I hate the move where someone sits on the turnbuckle and Trish does her handstand thing on them. Here is a novel idea - don't go sit on the turnbuckle! If *I* know it is coming, surely the wrestler who scouted their opponent also knows.

 

Same thing with Shelton and his spot where the guy catches his leg, shoves it to the side and Shelton does a falling heel kick. Come on, we all know that kick is coming and it's easily avoidable.

 

I'm not saying I have a problem with guys re-using spots. HBK does SCM all the time but usually the opponent is groggy, not just being dumb.

 

The X-Division stuff is a manefestation of the same problem. It takes me out of the wrestling. Especially in a 3-way match where the guys just rotate getting knocked down. A hits B, C hits A, B hits C, A hits B, keep repeating. At some point it stops looking like wrestling and starts looking like interpretive dance.

 

Now I don't think X-Division sucks, or that it is ruining wrestling or anything like that. I just find things that appear overly fake a bit annoying unless they are clearly comedy matches or something like that.

 

From what I have seen Samoa Joe is pretty good in this regard. The 3 way between Styles, Daniels and Bently (? the guy with Tracy) in one of the early Spike episodes is a good example of what I don't like.

[Angle-plex 0]

I haven't seen a LOT of TNA, but I can say that the Ultimate X and Monster's Ball (the one where they are locked up before hand) match premises' are retarded and turned me off. I have no problem with the regular X matches, even if they are spotty; they're just there to make it different than WWE.

Edited December 16, 2005 by Angle-plex

[razazteca 0]

Now I don't think X-Division sucks, or that it is ruining wrestling or anything like that. I just find things that appear overly fake a bit annoying unless they are clearly comedy matches or something like that.

Alex Shelley and Michael Bently are the top suspects.

[World's Worst Man 0]

I don't agree with the strength of the claims, but there is a grain of truth.

 

I have a certain level of suspension of disbelief, but I don't like it when the stuff going on is just TOO fake looking. For example I hate the move where someone sits on the turnbuckle and Trish does her handstand thing on them. Here is a novel idea - don't go sit on the turnbuckle! If *I* know it is coming, surely the wrestler who scouted their opponent also knows.

 

Same thing with Shelton and his spot where the guy catches his leg, shoves it to the side and Shelton does a falling heel kick. Come on, we all know that kick is coming and it's easily avoidable.

 

I'm not saying I have a problem with guys re-using spots. HBK does SCM all the time but usually the opponent is groggy, not just being dumb.

 

The X-Division stuff is a manefestation of the same problem. It takes me out of the wrestling. Especially in a 3-way match where the guys just rotate getting knocked down. A hits B, C hits A, B hits C, A hits B, keep repeating. At some point it stops looking like wrestling and starts looking like interpretive dance.

 

Now I don't think X-Division sucks, or that it is ruining wrestling or anything like that. I just find things that appear overly fake a bit annoying unless they are clearly comedy matches or something like that.

 

From what I have seen Samoa Joe is pretty good in this regard. The 3 way between Styles, Daniels and Bently (? the guy with Tracy) in one of the early Spike episodes is a good example of what I don't like.

 

I agree with this sentiment. Most of the X-Division stuff is indeed spotty-spot-spotty-spot. The problem is, it seems to me that some of the people who complain about this don't really know the difference between a spotfest, and a match with a lot of spots. It's like they think a lot of spots automatically makes the match bad. But that's not really true. If spots are built to and and have some meaning, it doesn't matter if there's a lot of them. And that's the problem with a lot of these matches, meaningless, poorly built spots, just for the sake of rolling out spots.

 

Also, here's a question. To the people who think the X-Division is business exposing and spotty, what is your opinion of Kurt Angle?

[Angle-plex 0]

Angle is just as bad as most X-division guys, at least since 2002, when the "duck my lariat" transition came into play. The match vs HBK at Wrestlemania was just a bunch of spots that led to nothing, a lot like an X-division match. They are fun to watch (live especially), but by no means are they great matches.

[Corey_Lazarus 0]

In all truth, if you think the X-Division sucks because it isn't like "real fighting," then you've never seen a fight between two people that know eastern martial arts or capoeria.

 

In real fights? Not every punch hurts. Adrenaline rushes, poorly-thrown punches, stronger parts of the body over others, higher pain tolerances, etc. Hell, while we're on the subject, let's look at it like this: Hogan matches are not professional wrestling. Hogan/Angle would not be professional wrestling, considering Hogan has no traditional fighting skills beyond basic inherent brawling (punches, kicks, chokes) whereas Angle won an OLYMPIC GOLD MEDAL in freestyle amateur wrestling. If the match were to go for more than 5 minutes without Angle owning the hell out of Hogan, it wouldn't be realistic (and that's not even taking into account the health of either man, or the age).

 

Tazz/Lawler was not professional wrestling, since it wasn't realistic. Tazz has a 3rd-degree black belt in judo, a form of martial arts that wrestling is very closely tied to as it is based off of submissions, chokes, and throws. Lawler is a man in his 50's that, although in relatively good shape, has little shoot experience. The feud saw Lawler constantly get the better of Tazz, so if we're going by the "it's not pro wrestling if it isn't realistic" mindset, than that feud wasn't pro wrestling.

 

Hell, any match that goes for more than 10 minutes isn't realistic, as by then somebody would either be knocked out, choked out, or have submitted. There wouldn't be too many elbow drops or suplexes, because most people automatically go for a knockout punch or a choke in a real fight.

 

That's why the original poster's argument was flawed, and that's beyond the fact that he trolled by speaking of all of us in a demeaning manner.

 

((Sorry if this seems rushed and if my points meandered too much, I'm dead tired.))

[justcoz 0]

Having talked to a lot of friends and family members after suggesting they check out TNA they all say the same thing. They think the talent is there but TNA's fast pace and lack of establishing characters for the X Division guys confuses them. My uncle stated that it's fun to watch, there is a "wow" element and a feeling that you are seeing action you won't see on WWE but he's left not really knowing the talent or without a care as to who wins or loses. Both of us hate how they seemingly cram the X Division guys in so many six man tags or three or four way matches. It's confusing, particularly if you are a first time viewer (like my uncle and gradfather) and not a 'smart fan' who knows these guys from ROH DVD's. I also think that it's ridiculous as a whole to have the 'X Division'. It pigeonholes the talent into a role in the card within a division that they can't escape. People like Samoa Joe, AJ, Christopher Daniels, Alex Shelley, Austin Aries, etc. should just be TNA talent. Not X Division stars.

 

They should have characters, mic time, storylines and feuds rather than spotfests designed to just showcase the division. Yes, the one hour of programming limits TNA but it's a matter of effectively using that time to get guys over. It's just as easy to write a program between Austin Aries and Chris Sabin, give Austin some tempermental Irishman shitkicker gimmick and actually book angles to put over their series of matches as it is to have yet more Monty Brown, Kip James and Abyss squashes every week. And if I'm wrong with that analogy than ok, I don't follow the product all that much as I'd like to because I have difficulty maintaining interest, even though I think the action itself, particularly with the X Division, is the best in the business. I just don't remember the actual matchups as much as I'll remember HBK or Benoit vs. Angle. That's because the action leads to nothing and is paced so fast that it all just blurs together IMO. I want TNA to succeed more than anything. This is just something that irritates me.

[Guest TFP]

I have never read so many bullshit about pro wrestling in all my life.

First of all, you can call me "idiot" or "troll" or whatever you want but I am not a self proclaimed smart mark and knowing nothing about pro wrestling...

Let me give you a little lesson about pro wrestling:

 

Pro wrestling is built on many factors:

 

Basic psychology:

 

2 guys in the ring, heel vs face (even if is face vs face, one of them takes the heel job),

the heel is shining because he's better or stronger or have more guts.Then the heel cuts off ( most of the time with a cheating move) and he is working on the face.

Then the face makes his comeback with the help of the crowd who is cheering at him.

 

The crowd is as important as the ref or managers, it allows the face to fight back.

 

It means that the wrestlers have to create emotions to make the crowd reacting.

 

That is the basic psychology and the basis of pro wrestling.

 

To create emotions, the face must be shining and show fire in order the crowd says "he is the man!", than the heel must be cheating and vicious in order the crowd says "he's a bastard, come on face kick his ass!" and the face has to sell the moves of the heel in order to make his come back amazing and to make the crowd cheering at him so much more.

 

In pro wrestling, you have play the roles and the emotions so well to make people(and especially the kids) think that it could be real.

To create this, you have to do realistic moves and have to sell it as well.

You have to do moves that are related to your size, I mean a cruiser has to do cruiser moves and a heavyweight has to do heavyweight moves in order to respect the active wrestlers and the legends.

Doing plenty of moves to beat your opponent make your moves look fake as they are not efficient, you look weak and make the business fake.

 

Your matches have to be built on a ring psychology and real storytelling depending on the feud and the storylines.

 

The characters need to entertain the crowd, lik I said they need to give emotions, so you never ever have to just come into the ring, do 30 moves and get out of here just like this, people will say "yeah, not bad...what's next?".

 

I have desribed quickly what pro wrestling is. Pro wrestling is a drama, it is a play.

Pro wrestling is not just stunt or circus performance. The moves are not important, the most important is the emotions you give.

 

Once you have understood that, you know what is pro wrestling.

 

And as you can see, X division is not pro wrestling as there is no psychology, no storytelling, no characters, no selling...it is just moves and spots to entertain the crowd.

But remember something important:

You will forever remember Hogan, Savage, the undertaker, the rock, austin, triple h because they were giving emotions but as soon as new stunt performers doing better and more spectacular moves than styles or samoa joe or daniels will appear, you will forget immediatly the current x division roster.

 

So, I am probably an idiot or a troll, but I know pro wrestling...

[World's Worst Man 0]

Here's your problem. You're making factually incorrect, broad, sweeping statements about something that isn't absolute. You're also unbelievably pretentious and repugnant, but that's neither here nor there. Anyway, the fact is, some (not many, but a few) X-Division matches do have storytelling, characters, selling and psychology. The latest Samoa Joe vs. AJ Styles match is a good example of this, as those criteria were fairly obvious. So really, lose the attitude and the desire to make generalizations and maybe you won't have people calling you a troll and an idiot. Or at least, it won't be warranted.

[Guest TFP]

Everyone of you could buy the secrets of the ring series by Raven (unless you think that raven is an idiot or troll or repugnant and pretentious) and you will hear more or less the samne thing you are reading here...

Pro wrestling isn't absolute but like movies or comedy, there are statements ans basis you can not avoid...

I am maybe pretentious but I am not as funny as you saying that thereare characters and psychology in X Division...

[World's Worst Man 0]

That figures.

[King Cucaracha 0]

X-Division or WWE Style.

 

Your choice buddy. I know which I'd choose.

 

The problem with the X-Division is, guys like Aries and Shelley and Joe who CAN work matches with true psychology have 10 minutes a week to stand out from the pack. And the only way guys like Aries, who aren't getting mic time, can do that is by blowing people away in the ring. So they're forced to resort to filling matches with as many spots as possible, in the hope that fans'll take to them more than another guy in the same position. To say that AJ Styles and Samoa Joe can't work is asinine. Or, better yet, it's blatantly not true. To say Austin Aries and Alex Shelley, as examples, don't know anyhing about psychology is ridiculous. Their hands are forced by bad booking and/or limited TV time.

 

Don't hate the players, hate the game.

[Guest TFP]

Don't hate the players, hate the game.

 

That is defenitly what I think...

 

I am not saying that styles, joe, daniels, aries, williams are shit...I saw them in the UK and they know how to work even if most of them have a lack in mic skills.

 

The problem is the X Divison concept! not the wrestlers themselves.

 

That's why I said that it is a waste of time for them and they are locking themselves in a ghetto, they have now the etiquette of performer and they could not evolve in somtehing else just like an sitcom actor cannot make hollywood movies.

 

The X Division is damaging pro wrestling and its performers careers...