Why X division is not good at all...

[Jacques 0]

I guess we'll have to wait and see.

[World's Worst Man 0]

This is such a silly argument. Anyone who's seen any of Joe's work outside of TNA would never suggest he might not be able to work a bigger opponent, nor would they complain abou him hurting AJ Styles. Joe's best match came against a guy who was taller than him. Joe routinely doesn't fuck people up in the ring. The AJ Styles match was clearly a case of 2 guys agreeing to go out there and kill each other due to the importance of the match. It's really no different than Akiyama and Kobashi deciding to kill each other with brutal head drops in the main event of a Tokyo Dome show. It's not like that kind of match is wrestled all of the time.

 

So yea, if you want to discuss a worker, at least see a relevant sample of his work.

[daileyxplanet 0]

The X-Division is so fast they don't have TIME to sell, it's Total Nonstop Action!!! [/Don West]

[Adam 0]

This is such a silly argument. Anyone who's seen any of Joe's work outside of TNA would never suggest he might not be able to work a bigger opponent, nor would they complain abou him hurting AJ Styles. Joe's best match came against a guy who was taller than him.

 

Exactly. The Kobashi match automatically nullifies any argument that Joe can't work against taller opponents.

[Corey_Lazarus 0]

I'm still waiting for a valid argument of Angle/Daniels from TFP.

 

Re: Joe's ability to work

Guy's fucking amazing. He can't chain-wrestle? Really? So that wasn't an assload of chain-wrestling I saw in the opening stages of the first Joe/LowKi RoH match? That wasn't a decent amount of chain-wrestling I saw in the first Joe/Homicide RoH match? And I highly doubt that his series with Punk was devoid of chain-wrestling, too.

I also highly doubt how stiff he actually works. He's likely of the mold where he works so that it IS stiff, but looks a lot worse than it is. I'm sure his chops kill like a motherfucker (look at the size of his hands, for Christ's sake), but as far as the Muscle Buster, Ole Kick, and other signature spots go? Well, the Muscle Buster is an upper-back bump that Joe does perfectly so it appears as though the opponent lands on their head (slow the tape down and you'll see they land on their upper back), the Ole Kick is something the opponent can put a hand up or just take the bump right before the kick is landed (think Yakuza Kick), and the facewashes and such don't hurt as much as they look like they do thanks to the padded soles of wrestling boots.

 

Also, in regards to the Angle/Joe argument, I'll throw in my two cents, as it branched off of a question raised by me.

All in all, I do feel Angle is the more complete package, but that comes from the fact that he had some of the best mic and ring workers around to help raise him when he was given the baptism by fire (he had Benoit, Guerrero, Malenko, and Jericho to help his in-ring game, and Austin, Rock, and 2000 HHH to help him on the stick and to form a character). Joe, I feel, is MUCH better in the ring, as he is more believable as a threat due to his size, how well he disguises the fakeness of professional wrestling (via stiffness), and how fast he can move for a man his size. I'll never say Angle is anything less than extremely above-average, because the man has given me more very good/great matches on free TV than most other wrestlers will give in their lifetime (and he also has a very good sense for pacing the match around the crowd's reactions), but he's not close to Joe in terms of ringwork. Mic work? Far beyond, but Joe's mic work has been pretty limited throughout his career.

[Jacques 0]

This is such a silly argument. Anyone who's seen any of Joe's work outside of TNA would never suggest he might not be able to work a bigger opponent, nor would they complain abou him hurting AJ Styles. Joe's best match came against a guy who was taller than him. Joe routinely doesn't fuck people up in the ring. The AJ Styles match was clearly a case of 2 guys agreeing to go out there and kill each other due to the importance of the match. It's really no different than Akiyama and Kobashi deciding to kill each other with brutal head drops in the main event of a Tokyo Dome show. It's not like that kind of match is wrestled all of the time.

 

So yea, if you want to discuss a worker, at least see a relevant sample of his work.

What the hell are you talking about? I never said Joe will have trouble against bigger opponents. I said Joe will have trouble against american heavyweights. Ofcourse Japanese wrestlers are used to the strong style matches thats why he had a good match against Kobashi.

[World's Worst Man 0]

Good, because I was referring to the second CM Punk match.

 

What all this boils down to is people thinking spots and stiffness is what makes Joe a good worker, and if he isn't allowed to work that way, he wouldn't be a good worker. This is nonsense, because rolling out spots doesn't make one a good worker, and stiffness isn't really a big deal. The things that make Joe truly great are his selling, pacing and how he builds a match. And really, all this talk about Joe hurting people is ridiculous. If one has seen enough of Joe's work, they'd see that Joe doesn't work an insane level of stiffness all the time, as he did in the Styles match. It was obviously an agreement on both men's part to work really stiff, to show how important the match was. As I said before, wrestlers have been known to throw caution to the wind when involved in high-profile matches.

[TheInsane 0]

The match vs AJ was bound for injury. Both men played up on the hatred and it was alot stiffer than the usual Joe match. You know Joe suffered injuries in that one as well. It was meant to be more dangerous. In other cases I havent heard that Joe hurts people more than othe rpeople do. Sure he is stiff but I'd like to quote William Regal here; "I hit hard in safe places". I dont think Joe is a danger to work with. Sure you're sore but most often its nothing dangerous. The most dangerous athlete in TNA today is probably Skipper who botch so much every time he is out there. I thin Joe can still be stiff in the heavyweight division in TNA. It wont work in WWE though since they have a certain policy regarding the style people should use in the ring.

Atleast Elix Skipper doesn't intentionally stiffs up his opponent. And since when is getting dropped on your neck/kicked in your head considered safe? Joe has three moves where his opponent can easily get crippled, Muscle Buster(Bentley), snap powerslam(Necro Butcher) and corner STO.

 

BTW I like Joe's matches. But I think it's retarded when people say that Angle isn't as good as Joe because he does things like hitting the pop-up superplex when Joe is ignoring the first rule of pro-wrestling - protecting your opponent. And please don't give me the argument about Punk saying he is a safe worker. What else do you expect Joe's best friend to say?

 

Well Elix is still more dangerous to his opponents than most wrestlers I watch on a regular basis.

 

On the head dropping things. Look at AJPW ala 1993. The freakin company was built in head dropping moves. All suplexed were made so that the opponen lantet on his head. However these people are well trained and serioud injury didnt occul allt hat often. Lets look at WWE after the year 2000. How many wrestlers have been out with serious neck injuries. ALOT. There is something to this. First of all many people probably did to risky stuff and overall stuff that they really werent ready to do. Second, WWE wrestler bodies are less good from a injury perspective. Alot of show-off muscles and less where it counds. really big guys always suffers more injuries (and more easily as well).

 

I think Joe does protect his opponents well. Ok so he had two failed moves that you can name. You know accidents happen. I think Joe is as safe as any other wrestler its just that he is stiffer than most (in the US). Stiffness does not equal more risk for big injuries you know.

[King Cucaracha 0]

Joe isn't terrible on the mic. I don't know where this conception came from and if anyone who's quoting it has actually heard Joe talk, but Joe isn't terrible on the mic. He's not wordy but he more than gets the point across. Anyone who's ever heard him do commentary on a match (ie, me) or at a Q&A knows that he's actually surprisingly eloquent. He's kinda like Batista was when he got popular. Can't cut a 20 minute promo, doesn't need to cut a 20 minute promo. If he were given the right sort of gimmick, where he wouldn't need to cut 20 minute promos, he'd be fine.

 

I'd take Joe over current, roid rage Angle any day on the mic.

 

Also, you can't use Necro as an example of Joe being unsafe. Necro took an Exploder Suplex off the apron on his HEAD during that match. On the ECW Arena's floor. On his forehead, people. Necro is insane. He's also liable to get hurt because he's not the world greatest wrestler.

[cabbageboy 0]

From Joe's TNA stuff I honestly don't know what he can do on the mic and don't really care a hell of a lot. The ass beatings speak for themselves.

 

It's funny but as I was watching that Joe/AJ match I thought "Man, this is like an X Division version of Sting and Vader." Then I read Scott Keith's (yes, I know) rant and he made the same Sting/Vader comparison. Ironically I just watched Starrcade 92 on the 24/7 this week and one of the main events on it was...Sting vs. Vader.

[SuperJerk 0]

From Joe's TNA stuff I honestly don't know what he can do on the mic and don't really care a hell of a lot. The ass beatings speak for themselves.

 

Word.

[TheBigSwigg 0]

I've read in interviews with guys like Punk, Daniels, etc, that Joe looks stiff, but isn't as stiff as he looks. If this were true, it would make him an even better worker

[Corey_Lazarus 0]

I'm definitely going to trust people that have worked with him (ESPECIALLY Punk, who tore the house down with him in RoH) over some fans on the 'net.

[Guest TFP]

Dear Corey,

I apologize for being late in answering but I had shows this weekend so I was not on line!

 

Happy to see that my topic got so many replies...

Well about Angle and Daniels,

 

Angle :

 

Charisma, real wrestling background,established character with nice gear, very good acting,good promos and mic skills, heel and face very good playing as well.Great moves set , terrific belly to belly. The ankle lock is a really good finisher even if it is undersold most of the time.

He does not make stunt and reacts to the crowd ( for example in Dublin, he was preparing a slam and the crowd was cheering him so he stopped to just bash the cena with punch and forearms, excellent working!!)

 

Angle is not big enough and his character had changed to many times to be a long term champion like triple h, austin or the rock.

 

Daniels :

 

Excellent technical and high flyer wrestler, great move set and excellent shape. Super athlete with really good cardio skills.Nice entrance gear.

 

Bad seller ( iron man match vs styles against all odds 2005, no pain after 20 moves...), poor microphone skills and no promos, not a real character or gimmick and no interaction with the crowd, he does his spots and moves whatever the crowd says.

Very small evolution for Daniels in the future as he is locked in the X Division or ROH way of wrestling.

 

So the verdict is:

 

Angle is the winner by a huge Knockout!

 

If you need more details, no problem.

 

Thanks for the psychology, lesson, I agree with most of the things you wrote.

But don't say "you're wrong, we're right" because it is defenitly not the reality...We do not have the same vision of pro wrestling, I am old school and you are not. That's all.

Psychology, characters, promos, gear etc... are more important than what you do in the ring.

[World's Worst Man 0]

The fact that you criticise Daniels for his bad selling, yet ignore Angle's obviously poor selling says more than I ever could. Not to mention using "ring gear" as a reason why someone is a good wrestler.

[Corey_Lazarus 0]

I'm with MisawaGQ entirely. Daniels has poor selling? Please, sir, check out the 4-man Iron Man match between Daniels, LowKi, Spanky, and Doug Williams. 60 minutes, 4 men, and you will see more psychology, storytelling, and selling in that one match than you will see in ANY WWE match of the last 5 years.

 

Here is why I feel that Daniels is the better wrestler/worker:

 

Angle is too one-noted in how he works a match. The only thing that changes when he is heel or face is his pacing, which I will say is very good (as it pertains to the crowd reaction; a good example being yours from a show in Dublin), as he still uses the same moves, the same taunts, and still doesn't sell very long-term. For example, take the 60-minute Iron Man between he and Brock. Halfway through the match Angle was acting as though he just started wrestling. That's BAD selling. In fact, that's HORRIBLE selling. And let's not forget his usual spot of playing dead as his opponent goes up top, jumping to his feet and then to the middle rope, and delivering an armdrag or a belly-to-belly suplex off the top.

 

Daniels can work any style. It's true: ANY style. I've seen him work matches that are all mat, all air, and even brawls. And they've all been very good, and some even great. While it's true that he does look fairly awkward in the ring, this is more because of his body than his talent. Please check out Daniels/American Dragon from RoH Round Robin Challenge to see Daniels work a WWE-style match that surpasses most of the WWE main events in terms of quality of work (though not in terms of how much drama there is).

 

And no, you are not old-school. If you were old-school, you would be more about the WRESTLING aspect and actually less about the character/gimmick aspect. I readily admit I'm not old-school. In fact, I'm not any school. I like wrestler for a variety of reasons. But to flat-out say a style of wrestling that you do not prefer is NOT wrestling is preposterous, especially when some of your favorites undoubtedly make the same mistakes as many X-Division workers.

[World's Worst Man 0]

Good post Corey. You captured a lot of what I would have said if I wanted to spend the time replying to this clueless guy. I'll just add that another one of Angle's big flaws is that he absolutely blows at building/setting up his spots. I call it Scott Steiner circa 1994 syndrome. So many times in an Angle match he'll walk up to his fully aware, undamaged opponent, grab him, and suplex him. What compounds the problem is that it usually happens early in the match, which makes even less sense. It all makes me cringe because it's so business exposing to see a totally aware guy let his opponent walk right up to him and suplex him.

[Guest TFP]

I have not seen the match you are talking about but I will do it soon.

When I say that I am old school is saying that I love the whole aspect of pro wrestling as a show and that 's why I say that even ring gear is important for a wrestler.

Concerning Daniels, I have really big doubts on what you say...Daniels (in X Division) is just a stunt guy but I know that he is able to work really well like he did several times in the UK for example.

Saying that Angle is a horrible seller is exagerated. You know Angle is not my favourite wrestler, not at all. But if I compare the 2 whole packages of Angle and Daniels and if I take all the aspects of pro wrestling, I still believe that Angle is better than Daniels.

Because being a pro wrestler is not just being technical, or high flyer or being a good seller...

[The Decemberists 0]

When I say that I am old school is saying that I love the whole aspect of pro wrestling as a show and that 's why I say that even ring gear is important for a wrestler.

 

As Cornette often says, there's no such thing as old school wrestling and new school wrestling - there's only good wrestling and bad wrestling. There was good and bad wrestling twenty years ago, and there's good and bad wrestling now.

[Guest TFP]

I agree with that and it is really cool to have different wrestling styles in the same show, that makes it more attractive.

I am only criticizing the X division product.

[KingPK 0]

They really need to give Joe a competitve match on Impact instead of a bunch of ass beatings to show the fans that haven't bought a PPV yet that, yes, Joe CAN work an actual one-on-one match instead of taking a couple of shots and repeating the same spots over and over in his squashes. TNA really needs to understand that, although they only have an hour, having a squash match every week isn't really the best idea unless it is a different guy doing the squashing every week. Every Joe match I've seen on Impact so far has been a squash and I'm getting tired of it.

[EricMM 0]

Saying Daniels has no interaction with the fans is craziness.

 

Maybe it's just the ROH fans who love him so much, or love to hate him so much, but he's gotten sick amounts of heat through his actions, easily.

[Corey_Lazarus 0]

Well, let's talk about one man that is a favorite of just about anybody: Ric Flair.

 

Ric Flair has wrestled the same match for 20+ years. He has had the same character for 20+ years. In fact, the only thing that has changed in 20+ years for Flair, as it comes to wrestling, is his look (and that is all due to age and a few different haircuts). Now, is he a GOOD WRESTLER because he can sell? Of course he can sell. That's one of the reasons his act has put over more people than most technical greats have put over: he makes everything his opponents hit him with look fantastic by either bumping his ass off or selling it long-term. Can he work the mat? Yeah: amateur wrestler in high school, turned pro and learned psychology from other NWA greats like Funk and Race, and had some amazing chainwrestling sequences with Ricky Steamboat and Sting. Great promo's? Yeah: Flair is known for the "money promo," that one interview that makes a match worth watching regardless of the expected quality. Building drama? One of the best: there's been more drama in all of Flair's biggest matches throughout his entire career than ever thought possible for any given wrestler.

 

However, one thing that is a BIG detraction from Flair is innovation. He hasn't tried anything knew since the Steamboat feud in the late 80's, really. You know what you're going to see in every Flair match (flop, Figure-4, rake of the eyes, minor legwork, chops, WHOOOO, slammed off the top, back body drop, etc.), and to me that's just not good at all. I want to be able to be surprised by a wrestler at least once a month. I've never been surprised during a Flair match once I started watching wrestling. Ditto Austin. Ditto Hogan. Ditto (insert name of "great" wrestler here).

 

And why? There's no innovation. Sure, every wrestler needs their signature spots, their own personal "5 moves of doom" if you will, but without keeping the fans on their toes and saying "wow, I can't believe he could do that" now and then, there's no real need to watch the MATCH as opposed to the final few minutes of the match. That's the one thing the X-Division can guarantee: you're going to see something you don't always see in wrestling, especially if you're not used to high-flying workers.

 

As for Joe, I agree: he needs a competitive match on Impact at some point in the near future to help put him over, put over a possible challenger for the X-Division title, and to get fans going "wow, this guy CAN work and not just destroy people." Monsters sell, yes, but they only sell for so long.

[Guest TFP]

Dear Corey,

 

Your analysis of Ric Flair is really clever man. You are absolutely right!

I also understand that you are upset with the lack of innovation.

 

In fact you don't like the concept of the "trademark" moves, do you?

 

I would say that a wrestler need trademark moves or spots or catchphrases, that makes him unique.

I agree that what you said with Flair is exactly the same for guys like austin, the rock or hogan...

 

You are absolutely right about innovation but a wrestler will never change what made him famous and makes him earning a lot of money, that's why pro wrestling should innovate in stipulations, fresh faces and great storylines...

 

Concerning Samoa Joe, with his wrestling skills, he should leave the X Division as soon as possible and get into something more interesting, he needs to go deeper!

[TheInsane 0]

Concerning Samoa Joe, with his wrestling skills, he should leave the X Division as soon as possible and get into something more interesting, he needs to go deeper!

 

I am all for making Joe a player in the heaveyweight division as well. But I have to say that even though I doubted the descicion to put him in the x-division initially it had been proven to be a huge success. He is now the X-division champion and I think he should be for several months. He really did start at the bottom and worked his way up to the title. I think he'll be a great champion and when the time comes he can move to the heavyweight rankings and be successful there as well.

[Corey_Lazarus 0]

Apparently, TFP, you must've missed that paragraph at the end of my last post where I said every wrestler needs their signature moves.

 

And why should somebody change how they make their money? Because it won't make them money forever.

 

And Joe should get out of the X-Division so he can go to something better? Are you fucking kidding me? Sorry, but the fact that you think the workers of the World title scene are better than the top X-Division guys is laughable and proves to me that you shouldn't even be watching TNA in the first place.

[Guest Andrew J.]

Joe should eventually be moved into the world title scene, because Joe will improve the image of the belt, not the other way around.

[King Cucaracha 0]

I'm still getting over the claim that Daniels has poor microphone skills. And this is compared to Angle, who hasn't been entertaining for years?

[Guest TFP]

I have never said that the NWA heavyweight title was something good as it is just old wwe stars wrestling each other to survive and make a bit of money before complete retirement.

Samoa Joe should leave TNA and work in OVW or Deep South Wrestling, in order to change his etiquette...

[Guest DuDe]

That's why the question was posed. If you think Angle is a better worker than Joe, you don't understand the importantance and psychology and selling.

 

Even working "WWE style" Angle still, well, isn't a world-class pro-wrestler. His offense, a lot the time, doesn't make sense. His "popup" moves, like the get knocked down hop up to hit a top rope spot can tkae the flow out of a match.

 

I mean, you can say it's a matter of opinion but it's really not. You might prefer Angle to Joe but you're just looking for different things.

Oh shit man, I totally forgot that your opinion was that much more important that mine and it must be true. Honestly, if you think that Joe is a better seller than Angle then you're looking for qualities that I, being the dumb mark that I am can't aknowledge, and thus I believe we will have to agree to disagree.