Does Triple H even want to be a heel?

[Dangerous A 0]

Raw should've had the 3 way main (HHH vs Cena vs Edge) and SD should've had the traditional 1 on 1 of Angle vs Rey.

[USC Wuz Robbed! 0]

But see, that leaves out Randy Orton. We can't have that, can we?

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

Raw should've had the 3 way main (HHH vs Cena vs Edge) and SD should've had the traditional 1 on 1 of Angle vs Rey.

 

I've suggested HHH/Cena/Shawn in the past too (Edge is only good in that match if he's going to win, which I deem about as likely as Bret wrestling Vince at Summerslam). And there is no question that Smackdown should be Angle vs. Rey. At least Cena has heat, even if its the wrong kind, so the crowd should be into the RAW match. Orton has no heat, possibly from months on end of getting his ass kicked and looking like a chump.

[jester 0]

They've really fucked themselves here. Cena is booed, HHH is boring.

 

Remember the days when there were three or four guys in the company you could reasonably put the belt on at any time?

[razazteca 0]

But see, that leaves out Randy Orton. We can't have that, can we?

He belongs in the Money in the Bank match.

[USC Wuz Robbed! 0]

You know, this Mania is shaping up to be the worst. They might as well throw the Randy Orton main event they have so craved for years in now.

[hyperchord24 0]

Who ever said that the Cena-HHH promo could've been done in the back was right. It eirily felt like it was a booking meeting. I really wasn't around for HHH's previous burials. Now I know what you mean. HHH was a freakin' comedian. It makes you wonder what he likes better -- burying talent or being top heel.

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

You know, this Mania is shaping up to be the worst. They might as well throw the Randy Orton main event they have so craved for years in now.

 

Yeah, I'm not seeing much here. Wrestlemania I gets a bit of a pass, plus the two top matches were pretty big at the time. Wrestlemania II had a couple of good tag matches, and the Battle Royal & Boxing Match were fun. The Savage story at Wrestlemania IV makes up for the match quality somewhat. XIII had Bret/Austin. XV had Rock/Austin, although it was probably their worst match together as main eventers, the angle was huge. Even Wrestlemania XI had more interest with Shawn/Diesel & LT/Bam Bam. Only Wrestlemania IX compares with what this show looks like going in.

[Dangerous A 0]

I think this year's WM will be solid, but unspectacular. They are really going to need something to break out that is unexpected. Edge could be that person, but this feud with Foley is not hot at all. They have a month to heat it up and it very well could get to where they need it. The stuff on top has been damaged. HHH/Cena has been well documented. The Angle/Rey/Orton program has lost luster in my eyes since Rey backed his way into the spot. Had they kept Rey in the spot or booked a more controversial finish to where Teddy Long had to put Orton in, then this program wouldnt' be hurt so much. Instead, it looks like Long granted Rey a spot out of pity, which is not nearly as grandiose compared to if they would have left him in the ME via the Rumble win.

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

In terms of match quality, I'm sure that this Wrestlemania will be far from the worst, but the build-up to the event and the actual feuds are horrendous from top to bottom. Wrestlemania XIII had little heat going in too, but Taker/Sid, Bret/Austin & Ahmed&LOD/NOD was still more than we seem to be getting this time.

 

We have discussed Cena/HHH & Angle/Orton/Rey, but the next two matches Vince/Shawn & Foley/Edge are horrible as well. I don't know who Undertaker pissed off to get stuck with Mark Henry, when he's been campaigning for years to have a real classic at Mania. MITB is just thrown together with no real purpose. There is just nothing here generating interest.

[Guest Dam(o)nYankees]

The big problem is that Mania is April second and the only match on the card that started build before February was McMahon and HBK. Last year, they were hinting at HHH and Batista and Shawn and Kurt since November, Eddie and Rey from about December, and Cena and JBL from January. Now almost every single build on both shows has started after the No Way Out show. Its like any old PPV.

[Guest Coffey]

Remember the days when there were three or four guys in the company you could reasonably put the belt on at any time?

They still have that, it's just that the brand split gets in the way.

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

Remember the days when there were three or four guys in the company you could reasonably put the belt on at any time?

They still have that, it's just that the brand split gets in the way.

 

They still had that 4 months ago (at least on Smackdown). Then Eddy died, Batista got hurt, Taker got pissed at Johnny Ace and took time off, Benoit got stuck in an endless feud with Booker and JBL was buried.

[Jericho2000Mark 0]

Orton has no heat, possibly from months on end of getting his ass kicked and looking like a chump.

 

And possibly from wrestling a boring, tedious style and cutting sleep-inducing promos where even he sounds like he's yawning.

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

Orton has no heat, possibly from months on end of getting his ass kicked and looking like a chump.

 

And possibly from wrestling a boring, tedious style and cutting sleep-inducing promos where even he sounds like he's yawning.

 

I didn't want to say that or be accused of being biased, but it probably is a factor.

[Guest Zarock]

Obviously his matches with Foley, Benoit, and others totally don't count.

[Art Sandusky 0]

As someone being prepped to be a main eventer, he needs to show that he's capable of having a good match with anyone. A brutal hardcore match with Cactus Jack and 30 minutes with Benoit will tend to make someone look really good, but there hasn't been much promise shown otherwise.

[Guest Dam(o)nYankees]

Obviously his matches with Foley, Benoit, and others totally don't count.

Name the others.

[Guest Zarock]

He's apparently going to have a good match against Super Crazy, so it seems like he's fairly capable of putting on good matches involving different styles (hardcore, technical, high-flying, power, etc.). I'd put him about on Edge's level, where he can't really carry anyone yet, but he can put on a great match against a guy like the Undertaker. But yeah, lately he's been booked horribly, so it's not a suprise that not many but him as a main event guy.

[Guest Dam(o)nYankees]

He's apparently going to have a good match against Super Crazy

I was at the Super Crazy match, and it was only good in the sense that it wasn't bad. I saw the thing two days ago, and I can't remember any aspect of it other than the chinlocks. It wasn't a bad match, but it certainly isnt something he should brag about.

 

And I dont recall this great Undertaker match. He had a decent one at Mania, but I think that may have something to with the Undertaker.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

Obviously his matches with Foley, Benoit, and others totally don't count.

Name the others.

And if you can't have a good hardcore brawl with a motivated Foley, as Foley was for that one, and a good wrestling match with Benoit, then you may as well hang it up.

[Jericho2000Mark 0]

Obviously his matches with Foley, Benoit, and others totally don't count.

 

The Foley match showed nothing more than his willingness to take sick bumps. Benoit can carry anybody not named Orlando Jordan to a good match. Try again.

[Art Sandusky 0]

Even if Orton was good in the ring, it still doesn't explain the other parts of the long-term main eventer equation, like good promos, half-decent booking, and, um, oh yeah, heat.

[5_moves_of_doom 0]

I do not see how even one single person on this planet could possibly try to defend Orton at this point.

 

From the fans' point of view, he is a heatless piece of shit with no credibility. No one likes him, and not in a way where people "love to hate him" (RE: Flair, heel Rock, sometimes HHH, Eddie, etc. etc.)... they just do not want him on their fucking television screens. He has said that Eddie G. is in HELL for crying out loud and he still is not even in the top three heels in the company heat-wise. Mark Henry gets a bigger reaction than him, for crying out loud.

 

Why does this happen? Well a.) he has no charisma b.) he has little talent and c.) (this one is most important) he was booked in a year-long feud where him and an old man beat up on another old man and ran away screaming every time the odds weren't in their favor until finally that old man KICKED THE SHIT out of him and his Dad AT THE SAME TIME in one of the most one-sided Main Events in history. He is treated like a chump because he has been booked like a chump. Just because he starts making fun of dead people doesn't mean that he's a "threat" of any kind.

 

Now, from a wrestling standpoint, things look just as bad. He is either completely average and bland or just plain bad depending on what day it is. Fucking KING KONG BUNDY was a more compelling ring worker because at least he had in-ring presence for crying out loud.

 

Orton has had three (four or five tops if you stretch it) good matches after being in the company for YEARS. Angle has had three good matches in the last month, including one that is being heralded as a modern classic of sorts. Mysterio is not far behind. Orton got absolutely carried on Benoit's back through a match that was bad by Benoit standards, he had a decent match with Taker which was only good because it took place back when that feud still had heat, and he had one good match with Foley because it was a Hardcore match. He could not have a good singles match with Foley any day of the week. Angle meanwhile, could have a classic with Mick even considering how out of shape he is these days.

 

Now (and I apoligize for this rant being a bit long,) if Kurt Angle just had a feud with UT where he stood up to the man's face and told him that he was going to break his ankle, and then proceeded to beat him in a ****1/2 match completely and utterly clean, while Randy's feud with UT a few months ago ended with him and an old man being DESTROYED by Taker every time they didn't attack him from behind (and sometimes they got destroyed even then,) then how in the holy fuck is Orton supposed to look like he even has a 1/100 chance against Angle? Even if he is booked to win, the fans are not retarded -- they will shit all over it. It does not make any fucking sense.

 

Randy Orton is horrible, whether you ask the "smarts" or the "marks." And that's that.

[Epic Reine 0]

A lot of you are really, REALLY underrating Orton's heat.

[5_moves_of_doom 0]

This is all relative. Orton's heat wouldn't be considered too bad if he was facing Lashley at Mania in the second or third match on the card, but for a "Main Eventer," the man is heatless. The crowd boos when he says "Eddie is in HELL!" but that's almost an obligation. Outside of that, he only receives negative reactions when facing a super-over face -- he has no heat on his own. If he cheats to win against a huge fan favorite like Rey, then obviously he will be bood, but in a situation where he walks down to the ring to cut a promo by himself, the crowd simply does not care and only reacts when he uses things like the "Eddie in hell" comment to get painfully cheap heat.

 

EDIT: The point being that a man's true individual heat can only be determined by how they get reactions BY THEMSELVES. Flair will get bood to no end for cheating to beat Randy Savage (or anyone else for that matter,) but then, two weeks after that heat wears off, the man can walk out to the ring, by himself, and have the crowd in the PALM OF HIS HAND booing the hell out of him within one minute. Orton has no such talents. And while charisma is a factor here, the much more important factor is the raw overness of a talent. Men like Undertaker, Flair, HHH, Angle, and Rey (though I've been down on Rey lately because of this cheap-pop-getting Eddie angle) are in the Main Event because if they weren't, well... the reactions that they get from the crowd would make people think "Why the heck isn't this guy in the Main Event?" Orton, meanwhile, with the heat that he has at this point, would fit in just as comfortably in the undercard if he was booked that way.

 

While the actual vocal projection of the crowd is basically in proportion to who Orton is facing, by himself he is about as over as Finley, who has been in the company for only two months. That is not "Main Event of Wrestlemania" material.

[jester 0]

Five Moves makes a lot of good points there. And you know what else? It's been so long since somebody has been chosen because of their natural talents that we've almost forgotten it can be done that way.

 

Remember Rico? He got more heat just by standing at ringside. Orton has beaten up nuns, weakened the dollar, eaten live puppies and he is not getting a reaction relative to the sheer amount of effort that has gone into him.

 

It's not impossible to turn Orton into a credible main event heel. Or face, for that matter. It's also not impossible to walk from New York to Los Angeles. But it makes a lot more sense to fly.

[King Cucaracha 0]

Obviously his matches with Foley, Benoit, and others totally don't count.

Name the others.

 

Undertaker. Shawn Michaels. Ric Flair (Taboo Tuesday). Pretty much every performance he's had at Survivor Series. His performance in the 04 Rumble (which was as good as Benoit's for the time they were in the ring). The match with Trips at Rumble 05 was underrated. His matches with RVD were decent considering RVD was in them.

 

EDIT: Val Venis.

 

How people expect Orton to be super-over after the NINE MONTH, NEVER ENDING, CAREER KILLING (I had to put that bit in captial letters see, so it stands out, that's how we do things on the net people!) feud with The Undertaker, I don't know. It's not the only reason, sure, but it's the main one at the moment. Of COURSE he has no credibility, he was made to look like a complete pussy by some terrible booking for 3/4 of a year. It's not his theme music that's the problem. It's not his pose. It's not just doing too many chinlocks. It's booking. Terrible booking. The WWE are far too desperate to turn him into something that he isn't and might never be which is a bona fide main eventer. And when they get desperate, they do things they needn't do. If they used Orton as a regular (ie unable to project his inner visions onto a camera during a wrestling show) cocky heel and bided their time, there probably wouldn't be a problem because he'd be a perfectly good US Title contender/holder.

 

He's nowhere near as bad as the rap he gets from some people though. He's been popular before, why not again (with the right booking)?

 

I do not see how even one single person on this planet could possibly try to defend Orton at this point.

 

I know, someone with an unbiased opinion tries to reason stuff out on the internet. Shocking, huh?

 

Men like Undertaker, Flair, HHH, Angle, and Rey (though I've been down on Rey lately because of this cheap-pop-getting Eddie angle) are in the Main Event because if they weren't, well... the reactions that they get from the crowd would make people think "Why the heck isn't this guy in the Main Event?" Orton, meanwhile, with the heat that he has at this point, would fit in just as comfortably in the undercard if he was booked that way.

 

Taker, 15 years plus. Flair, 20-25 years. HHH, 10 years. Angle, 6 years. Rey, 10 years. The reason they're over is because they were given time to establish themselves. You're comparing veterans to Orton, who's not even in his 3rd year in the WWE, which isn't a fair deal.

 

Compare to say Batista and Cena, who came in the same sort of time and/or position, then yeah, you're probably right.

 

It's not impossible to turn Orton into a credible main event heel. Or face, for that matter. It's also not impossible to walk from New York to Los Angeles. But it makes a lot more sense to fly.

 

Trouble is, Vince doesn't have the patience to wait for a flight, if you catch my drift.

[ANKLELOCK 0]

Orton's about to be in his FIFTH year of WWE, actually.

[frisco 0]

I find it funny that everyone is so sure that HHH is going to beat Cena at Wrestlemania. personally I'm expecting Cena to get the victory. It won't be based on talent...because regardless of what the Smarks say about HHH he is light years ahead of Cena talent wise, but I think HHH will put Cena over because the WWE wants to build up Cena as a champion. HHH is also light years ahead of marbles in the mouth Batista, yet the Game put that guy over as well.

 

The main reason...marrying the bosses daughter aside...that HHH is so popular is because he's the best talent on RAW. Now I'm not saying he's the most skilled wrestler, but he's the best mix of wrestling skill and genuine mike talent going now. The only other star in his class is Kurt Angle, and Randy Orton is starting to get there also.

 

If you look beyond a great moveset, you eventually realize that they need to have great mike skills to get storylines over and make us either care about or hate the characters. HHH is incredibly good at making us hate him. Those are the things that inspire us to buy tickets and thats the bottom line in the WWE.

 

Name one star in the WWE better on the mike that HHH?