500,000 march in LA

[jesse_ewiak 0]

Short answer. It's beaucratic, slow, and has many, many problems. However, compared to Europe, our immigration system isn't so bad. After all, look at what the European model is.

 

"Guest workers" who never truly become citizens, and are radicalized by living as second class citizens where they may be second and third generation living in that country. The worse thing a mass grouping of "illegal" immigrants has done is march in LA and wave some Mexican flags. A lot worse could have happened - after all, no cars were burned in the march. :-)

[Jingus 0]

But I want the long answer. Really, what about it is so horrible that someone would rather sneak into the country and live like a criminal rather than go through the red tape and be legit?

[LJSexay 0]

a good example for you:

 

friend of mine has been in this country since she was NINE MONTHS OLD. Ever since 1986. Hasn't left since. Grew up here, graduated with honors from HS, and is going to UC Berkeley.

 

Biggest reason why the process is hard, is because it is SO hard. In her case, her family applied for residency in 1996, when she was 10.

 

According to various immigration offices she's been to, the current cases and applications that the INS is looking at, for those coming from Mexico, are applications put in process in 1994. No joke. That's how slow the process is, let alone the amount of pre-reqs you need to put in an application in the first place.

 

In the meantime, she gets no financial aid, she barely makes enough to pay rent, and she's never been able to get a car, a job, an ID. The current system is all kinds of screwed up.

[Edwin MacPhisto 0]

Why don't you just, you know, do the research if you're that insistent? Google "u.s. immigration quota" or "u.s. immigration restrictions" or "u.s. illegal immigrants" and you'll find plenty. I'm not going to give you the long because the long is LONG, as you'll see if you look at any of what you can find with those basic searches. But here's some more short:

 

-Extremely difficult to get a work visa if you're the kind of person who needs to be doing the cheap labor illegals do/are qualified for; those go more often to people starting businesses.

 

-Quotas per nations, as legal immigration from one nation can't make up more than 7% of the total in a given year; a majority of the people coming over from Mexico would be denied on that basis alone.

 

-Incredibly long waits for greencards and various citizenship tests if you're trying to become a citizen. Some greencard processes have backlogs of years--I mean, like a decade--and maintaining provisional status as a low-wage laborer is extremely difficult.

 

Another aspect of it is that people very often don't have to live like a "criminal," per se. INS is lax in many states (Florida particularly, my home state) because illegals are a huge part of the economy. Yes, they'll be packed into a small residence with several others, usually under the name of their employer. Yes, they won't make a ton of money. But chances are, with their current statuses, they couldn't do any of that, because they're not going to get the opportunity to immigrate legally, or be able to last the duration of time to make it worthwhile. Some people can't wait as long as immigration takes, for the reasons alluded to earlier by Agent. Mexico ain't got shit for them. The U.S. provides a marginally better situation, so there you go.

[Jingus 0]

(horror story)

 

Holy shit, that pretty much answers my questions, thanks (thanks Eddie Mac too). Why then is there so rarely much public debate over immigration reform? Why are the hot-button issues all about how to treat illegals instead?

[NoCalMike 0]

.

 

To NoCal

--Yes, that is what it does, and without these illegals, those jobs WOULDN'T be able to be done anyways, because it wouldnt be worth it for the employers to hire for it. Or we'd have less jobs available.

 

 

Sure they'd get done, but not at pennies an hour, which would translate into higher prices at the grocery store, but also higher paychecks in general. Sounds ok to me.

 

Immigrants coming to the country for work is fine, but there should be a quota of how much labor is available, rather then just overloading the market with cheap labor.

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

Prices for the consumer are already fucked enough with transportation costs and price gouging from large corporations, worrying about inflation on top of that doesn't do anyone any good.

[LJSexay 0]

(horror story)

 

Holy shit, that pretty much answers my questions, thanks (thanks Eddie Mac too). Why then is there so rarely much public debate over immigration reform? Why are the hot-button issues all about how to treat illegals instead?

 

I wish I knew, bro. It's a heart-breaking situation. I mean when people think of 'illegal immigrants' they tihnk the border-hopping, just-got-here-5-months-ago kind of folk you always hear about. But there is so much more - there's the little kids who were brought here and grew up here, know ONLY here, and yet.. can't live a normal life here. It's pretty fucking shitty. Makes my blood boil.

[The Czech Republic 0]

Like I usually do, I'm just gonna be extremely lazy and say "fuck the bloated bureaucracy." Honestly, ten years? There has to be a way that this can be handled better.

[Perfxion 0]

I helped a former co-worker get his green card. Well, he had a history test to take that I bet HALF of the natural born citizens would fail. Plus the red-tape streches for miles. Its as if the bureaucray keeps expanding to meet the on-coming bureaucray.

 

The problem is "immigration" around here is that most of the "fresh off the boat" people are Pureto Ricans. Which is no harm being done, US citizens in all, but everyone labels them Mexicans which makes it look like there is an illegals problem. However, INS around here does NOTHING because 99% of people tipped off without green-cards are legal.

 

BTW: One of my current co-workers has been here in this country for all but one year of her life. He dad is legally here with a work visa, however, the mom isn't. Even with the marriage being valid in CT, it makes for a lot of red tape for everything. What are people stances on this?

[Stephen Joseph 0]

.

 

To NoCal

--Yes, that is what it does, and without these illegals, those jobs WOULDN'T be able to be done anyways, because it wouldnt be worth it for the employers to hire for it. Or we'd have less jobs available.

 

 

Sure they'd get done, but not at pennies an hour, which would translate into higher prices at the grocery store, but also higher paychecks in general. Sounds ok to me.

 

Umm, the paycheck ISNT any higher.

 

If the cost of goods goes up because wages go up, NO ONE IS BETTER OFF!

 

Yes you have more money, but it purchases less, and therefore you're not better off than you were before.

In general, prices rising is a very bad thing for an economy. and inflation hurts the poorest much more than it hurts the rich.

 

so if we use your suggestion, we'd hurt the poor more.

 

It's INFLATION! INFLATION IS NOT GOOD!

 

ARGH!!!

 

And yeah there's a way to handle immigration better.

 

Hello, welcome to America, work hard or go the fuck home.

 

open borders!

[Big Ol' Smitty 0]

http://www.dol.gov/asp/programs/history/re...reports/pay.htm

 

Here's a pretty straightforward, easy to read argument in favor of raising the minimum wage (although it is a little old).

[Stephen Joseph 0]

Except that its all wrong.

 

Solow is right, the effect on jobs is weak, BECAUSE MOST JOBS PAY ABOVE THE MINIMUM WAGE!!!

 

Raising the minimum wage will necessarily, unequivocally, reduce the number of jobs available for low-skilled workers who work at the minimum wage.

 

I'm sorry, but its fucking mathematics.

 

MW= 6.15 Let's say to earn a normal economic profit, I can afford to pay $20 an hour for labor.

 

Thus, I hire 3 laborers.

Now let's RAISE the minimum wage to a living wage. 10 Dollars. Now I can't hire three laborers. My production time takes longer. I can only afford 2. I produce less. Since I produce less, I must charge more to keep making the same profit.

 

Hence, for those at the bottom of the ladder, the minimum wage DOES NOT help them. How can you even argue for it when its been clearly demonstrated that each rise in the minimum wage does nothing to offset those living in poverty or the unemployment rate for those living in poverty?!!!

 

But yeah, what do I know. I'm just an economist who doesn't need google to understand this stuff

[CheesalaIsGood 0]

Except that its all wrong.

 

Solow is right, the effect on jobs is weak, BECAUSE MOST JOBS PAY ABOVE THE MINIMUM WAGE!!!

 

Raising the minimum wage will necessarily, unequivocally, reduce the number of jobs available for low-skilled workers who work at the minimum wage.

 

I'm sorry, but its fucking mathematics.

 

MW= 6.15 Let's say to earn a normal economic profit, I can afford to pay $20 an hour for labor.

 

Thus, I hire 3 laborers.

Now let's RAISE the minimum wage to a living wage. 10 Dollars. Now I can't hire three laborers. My production time takes longer. I can only afford 2. I produce less. Since I produce less, I must charge more to keep making the same profit.

 

Hence, for those at the bottom of the ladder, the minimum wage DOES NOT help them. How can you even argue for it when its been clearly demonstrated that each rise in the minimum wage does nothing to offset those living in poverty or the unemployment rate for those living in poverty?!!!

 

But yeah, what do I know. I'm just an economist who doesn't need google to understand this stuff

 

 

 

It sounds more like the system is a crock of shit based on you are saying. If you can't run your business without cheap labor than you can't have a business. Sorry. If you can't make it so that both business AND labor are at least sustainable then you really can't run a business. Sad but true and fair.

[Stephen Joseph 0]

If you cant afford to pay your workers, you go out of business

If your workers can get a better job, theyll leave you.

 

That's fair. And you know, if the work is so menial that they can't live on it, guess they get to work two jobs. People did that you know? Or they just have to live without cable tv.

 

I live next to a primarily spanish apartment complex. It doesn't look the best (I dont mind, keeps property values lower so my rent is cheaper). They dont seem to have a bad time with life...they got a park and they play soccer every day after work...none of them are starving, they sure seem alot freaking happier working their barely above minimum wage construction and yard jobs than the suits that trudge through their complex every day to get to the metro.

 

Since I know spanish, im able to talk to em, and I occasionally play soccer with em too. What I'm told is that even if where they live aint the best, its wayyyyy better than where they came from. And because of that, they dont mind living 4-8 in a two bedroom unit. Sure they want better, but they are pretty happy. Thats what being a minority community encourages...group solidarity, something this country as a whole lacks.

 

The business of business is making a profit for the owner. Its not about, never should be, and never will be about making labor sustainable. A SUCCESSFUL business will do both, and it reap the benefits. But a business that relies on minimal skill, will pay a minimum wage.

 

That's life. That's how it is, that's all it is, and no rose-colored glasses prescription of a cure will ever find a solution. But that's all that will be prescribed, because we will feel good that we raised the minimum wage, or gave someone welfare.

 

Nevermind that we actually dont help anyone. That's not important. Just that we try.

 

Yeah...right.

 

You want to help the poor people? That apartment complex that I mentioned runs a volunteer english class. I've subbed a few times when they need someone. The easiest and quickest way for an immigrant to earn above minimum wage, to improve their living conditions, diet, and societal standing, is for them to learn english. I think it increases their wages something like 20-30% after the first year that theyre proficient.

 

EDUCATION is the greatest welfare program we have.

[Special K 0]

Goddamn Mongorians.

[Big Ol' Smitty 0]

Except that its all wrong.

 

It's wrong that the minimum wage is worth less than it used to be?

 

That many adults have to live off the minimum wage?

 

That Americans want an increase in the minimum wage?

 

That 2/3 of minimum wage earners are adults over 20?

 

Hence, for those at the bottom of the ladder, the minimum wage DOES NOT help them. How can you even argue for it when its been clearly demonstrated that each rise in the minimum wage does nothing to offset those living in poverty or the unemployment rate for those living in poverty?!!!

 

In fact, following the most recent increase in the minimum wage in 1996-97, the low-wage labor market performed better than it had in decades (e.g., lower unemployment rates, increased average hourly wages, increased family income, decreased poverty rates).

 

Economic Policy Institute, 1998

 

But yeah, what do I know. I'm just an economist who doesn't need google to understand this stuff

 

And I love how you can take a contentious debate and act like you're a national authority on it because you have an econ degree. I know the basic economic effects of a price floor. But conventional wisdom has been turned on its head by by economists such as Card and Krueger within the past decade.

 

I live next to a primarily spanish apartment complex. It doesn't look the best (I dont mind, keeps property values lower so my rent is cheaper). They dont seem to have a bad time with life...they got a park and they play soccer every day after work...none of them are starving, they sure seem alot freaking happier working their barely above minimum wage construction

 

I didn't know we had many immigrants from Spain here in the US.

 

Also, I love your detached anthropological study of them. They get to play soccer so they must be happy! Could you chronicle their mating and feeding habits for us? They must feel so lucky to have an enlightened gringo like you grace them with your presence.

[CheesalaIsGood 0]

Except that its all wrong.

 

It's wrong that the minimum wage is worth less than it used to be?

 

That many adults have to live off the minimum wage?

 

That Americans want an increase in the minimum wage?

 

That 2/3 of minimum wage earners are adults over 20?

 

Hence, for those at the bottom of the ladder, the minimum wage DOES NOT help them. How can you even argue for it when its been clearly demonstrated that each rise in the minimum wage does nothing to offset those living in poverty or the unemployment rate for those living in poverty?!!!

 

In fact, following the most recent increase in the minimum wage in 1996-97, the low-wage labor market performed better than it had in decades (e.g., lower unemployment rates, increased average hourly wages, increased family income, decreased poverty rates).

 

Economic Policy Institute, 1998

 

But yeah, what do I know. I'm just an economist who doesn't need google to understand this stuff

 

And I love how you can take a contentious debate and act like you're a national authority on it because you have an econ degree. I know the basic economic effects of a price floor. But conventional wisdom has been turned on its head by by economists such as Card and Krueger within the past decade.

 

I live next to a primarily spanish apartment complex. It doesn't look the best (I dont mind, keeps property values lower so my rent is cheaper). They dont seem to have a bad time with life...they got a park and they play soccer every day after work...none of them are starving, they sure seem alot freaking happier working their barely above minimum wage construction

 

I didn't know we had many immigrants from Spain here in the US.

 

Also, I love your detached anthropological study of them. They get to play soccer so they must be happy! Could you chronicle their mating and feeding habits for us? They must feel so lucky to have an enlightened gringo like you grace them with your presence.

 

 

Oh man. HARSH!

[Guest Arnold_OldSchool]

John Titor warned us of our impending Civil War...

[Stephen Joseph 0]

1) MEANT hispanic

2) Quote all the "research" you want. You cite research during a boom period of the economy. Of course the lower end experiences better growth than the upper end, that's how things work when the economy is functioning well. When you have less, your growth rate as a percent is more than those who have alot

 

3) And yes, because I dont have to google search or rely on what other people have said, yes, I do understand economics better than you Smitty.

[bob_barron 0]

I do understand economics better than you Smitty.

 

Oh snap! He just threw down the gauntlet!

[Slayer 0]

"bigolsmitty, I take courses in Advanced Economics, I think I might just understand supply and demand graphs a little better than you. Retard."

[The Czech Republic 0]

Sure they'd get done, but not at pennies an hour, which would translate into higher prices at the grocery store, but also higher paychecks in general. Sounds ok to me.

 

If that sounds okay to you, then you're a fucking moron. I can see some middle-aged lady complaining that the price of orange juice practically doubled, and then NoCalMike chimes in that it's okay because now the proletariat (and yes he'd have to refer to them as The Proletariat) doesn't have to starve just for her to get her daily Vitamin C.

[NoCalMike 0]

Sure they'd get done, but not at pennies an hour, which would translate into higher prices at the grocery store, but also higher paychecks in general. Sounds ok to me.

 

If that sounds okay to you, then you're a fucking moron. I can see some middle-aged lady complaining that the price of orange juice practically doubled, and then NoCalMike chimes in that it's okay because now the proletariat (and yes he'd have to refer to them as The Proletariat) doesn't have to starve just for her to get her daily Vitamin C.

 

 

The cheap labor is hurting the lower income and mid-lower income workers. Those are the people who hurt the most from the illegal immigrants over-flooding the market place and making wages a bottomless pit.

 

I don't necessarily have a problem with migrant workers, as there is a need for a number of them, however I just don't think it should be a free-for-all, we should assess what are market can handle and stop there.

[The Czech Republic 0]

So you think that everyone should suffer from crippling inflation so that the lower-middle class makes a few more pennies an hour?

[Guest InuYasha]

So you think that everyone should suffer from crippling inflation so that the lower-middle class makes a few more pennies an hour?

No, I think the wealthy and the ultra-wealthy should start paying their fair share when it comes to taxes and civil responsibility. Never in the history of this country have the wealthy paid so little out of their egreous excess. To paraphrase Al Franken, "In the 1950's, we taxed the shit out of the rich."

 

I bet somewhere out there, there's some rich little shit who got a tax exemption on his/her dog's personal groomer.

[NoCalMike 0]

So you think that everyone should suffer from crippling inflation so that the lower-middle class makes a few more pennies an hour?

No, I think the wealthy and the ultra-wealthy should start paying their fair share when it comes to taxes and civil responsibility. Never in the history of this country have the wealthy paid so little out of their egreous excess. To paraphrase Al Franken, "In the 1950's, we taxed the shit out of the rich."

 

I bet somewhere out there, there's some rich little shit who got a tax exemption on his/her dog's personal groomer.

 

InuYasha beat me to it.

[SuperJerk 0]

So you think that everyone should suffer from crippling inflation so that the lower-middle class makes a few more pennies an hour?

No, I think the wealthy and the ultra-wealthy should start paying their fair share when it comes to taxes and civil responsibility. Never in the history of this country have the wealthy paid so little out of their egreous excess. To paraphrase Al Franken, "In the 1950's, we taxed the shit out of the rich."

In fairness, we also taxed the shit out of the rich back in the 70s.

[Guest InuYasha]

So you think that everyone should suffer from crippling inflation so that the lower-middle class makes a few more pennies an hour?

No, I think the wealthy and the ultra-wealthy should start paying their fair share when it comes to taxes and civil responsibility. Never in the history of this country have the wealthy paid so little out of their egreous excess. To paraphrase Al Franken, "In the 1950's, we taxed the shit out of the rich."

In fairness, we also taxed the shit out of the rich back in the 70s.

(Non-flame-baiting question)

 

Then what, may I ask, led to Stagflation? I wasn't around back then.

[Stephen Joseph 0]

Incredibly bad economic policy.

 

First you had wage and price controls that nixon institutited. That kept inflation artificially lower, like shaking a bottle of coke with the cap on. when the controls were lifted, inflation went nutso.

 

On top of that we had a very fuel dependent economy, and oil prices (a raw input into many goods) rose, that went nutso.

 

Finally, you had politicians thinking that the phillips curve always held (you can trade off between inflation and unemployment, higher inflation will lead to less unemployment and vice versa)

 

the phillips curve obviously wasnt true.

 

add that all together, and you get a bowl of economic soup that sucks.

 

Now onto taxes...

 

Who the hell creates wealth? The rich. Now, while it is true that the rich benefit more from personal property rights than middle or lower income peoples , it doesnt follow that they should pay taxes much over those income groups. They should pay more (since they benefit more), but really, there's no reason to increase taxes.

 

The bigger problem is reducing the size of the government and our insanely massive debt before other nations decide to pull their funding of our debt and thereby sink our economy.

 

FYI: We didn't tax the shit out of the rich in the fifties, just saying. Don't beleive a political comic pundit. You can tax the shit out of them because loopholes are in the millions. You can thank all your politicians for that.

 

(flat tax).

 

InuYusha, if you'd like more detail on stagflation, pm me. You know, since im the economist around here

 

EDIT: You will never get any to agree on what anyone's "fair share" of anything is.

 

Maybe if the government didnt do so fricking much that it really shouldnt be doing we wouldnt be worried about who to tax and how much.

 

But we gots to have our medicare, big ass army in a foreign country, welfares, pork transportation bills and gotta fund education so we dont leave any children behind.

 

did i make enough fun of both sides there? i hope so