Religious Tolerance & Religious Moderation Are a Joke

[Dobbs 3K 0]

No he didn't.

 

Wow, what a great argument. Oh, wait a minute...

 

Matthew 19:3-6, Jesus said: "Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,' and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'? So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."

 

Matthew 5:27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart".

 

It's not hard to look up Bible verses on the 'net, you know.

[Ripper 0]

So basically instead of pointing out where he specifically talks about adultery, you just say "sexual immorality" and that the line to homosexuality is easy to draw from there.

 

In no way shape or form could you possibly construe anything he said to be referencing homosexuality. And since bible verses are so easy to look up, look up one that supports your point.

 

In the first verse he is basically saying people were made to be together. He didn't make male...he didn't make female...he made male and female (one entity). This had nothing to do with being implicit about marriage only being for male and female which you implied that he did. He was answering a question about a man being able to divorce his wife.

 

So once again, no he didn't.

[Gary Floyd 0]

No, but he did preach against sexual immorality and made references to marriage (implicitly marriage between men and women) so it's not to hard to draw a line.

Uh, I agree with Ripper: no he didn't.

[Dobbs 3K 0]

I'm not interested in a semantics argument. The Bible makes it clear that God doesn't condone homosexuality, no matter how much you might not like it.

 

For the record, if people want to be gay, I couldn't care less, but I'm not going to pretend to approve of it either and go against my own conscience.

[MrRant 0]

I'm not interested in a semantics argument. The Bible makes it clear that God doesn't condone homosexuality, no matter how much you might not like it.

[Gary Floyd 0]

You really do live in your own world I3K.

[EricMM 0]

For the record, to the best of my knowledge, the two mentions of homosexuality in the bible are in Leviticus, which is history, and in letters written by St. John, who isn't, to my knowledge, Jesus.

 

So.

[Ripper 0]

Thats it, and once again, you would be hard pressed to find anything that jesus didn't cover in his time on earth. I think its a little strange that he would just skip over it.

 

But hey, in my beliefs, thats for God to decide. I don't know what he wants so i am not going to spend my time thinking about it or mustering the energy to approve or disapprove of anyones lifestyle.

[SamoaRowe 0]

1) The Bible does NOT make it clear that homosexuality is wrong. The line about "man laying with another man" does not necessarily mean sex.

 

2) So fucking what. The Bible isn't rules for the entire world. Only those who choose to follow it have to abide to it, it is not Earth's laws and has absolutely no grounds in any political argument. "But the Bible says..." give me a fucking break.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

From Lionelonline.com:

 

Dear President Bush:

 

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from you and understand why you would propose and support a constitutional amendment banning same sex marriage. As you said, "in the eyes of God marriage is based between a man a woman." I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination... End of debate.

 

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some other elements of God's Laws and how to follow them.

 

1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this law applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

 

2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

 

3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanness - Lev.15: 19-24. The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

 

4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is, my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

 

5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2. clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it?

 

6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there 'degrees' of abomination?

 

7. Lev.21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle-room here?

 

8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?

 

9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

 

10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

 

Mr. Bush, I know you have studied these things extensively and thus enjoy considerable expertise in such matters, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

(Author Unknown)

[World's Worst Man 0]

You know, one of the main arguments against religion is that it is the root cause of violence, intolerence, and a litany of atrocities unmatched in human history. However, when proponents of this argument bring it to the forefront, they temporarily toss out another of their main arguments; religion is a man made tool created to control the masses.

 

Well, by saying religion is the root cause of seemingly all the bad things in the universe, your average atheist is saying that religion is the cause of the corruption and not the human who uses it as a tool or shield to promote or act on intolerant views. Atheists use the logical fallacy of "well, since religion caused of all of these atrocties in the past, if it never existed, this would have never happened and the world would be better off for it." Well, not exactly.

 

You see, that's using the same logic people use when decrying firearms. If guns didn't exist, there wouldn't be so many people dying and maimed. Well, perhaps, but it's more logical to think that another weapon would have taken it's place in the killing fields. Also, they are sparing the human the responsibility of creating and using the weapon. It's merely a tool.

 

If you're not a person of faith, you most likely view religion as a tool. Man was obviously here first and he created that tool based on his human nature. If you were to go back in time to stop man from creating various religions, the world would not be better for it, something else that would divide us would be put into play to start the cycle all over.

 

Look at Hitler; the atrocities he committed were not based on religion, but science, eugenics to be exact. He did not care about the religion of Judaism, he was disgusted by the Jews as a people, a species. His regime committed one of the largest genocides in recorded history in the name of science.

 

Animals are devoid of religion, and you don't see them holding hands and singing Kum-ba-yah. From a purely scientific standpoint, it's in our nature to be divided and oppresive to those who we deem different. You take religion out of the equation and there will just be something else to divide us. Atheists need to cease with promoting the illogical theory that religion is the cause of human suffering. Human nature is the cause of human suffering. Would we better if we did not exist?

 

 

The root of all evil is human nature and free will. Religion just provides a convenient avenue for people to justify evil. But it would be naive to assume that if religion didn't exist, things couldn't possibly be better. You could (incorrectly) say that without religion, there would be no morals, and thus humans would be even more malevolent and violent, but that's ignoring the evolution of human intelligence and wisdom, along with the fact that morals are really based on reason and logic and their effects on society rather than the will of some phantom super-being. Laws and morals evolved on their own, without the help of monotheism, simply due to the evolution of the human mind. Greek antiquity is when human intelligence and wisdom really started to blossom with the great philosophers and scientists. Yet, due to monotheism, the works of these men were basically irrelevant during the middle ages, and sometimes actively punished. Only during the enlightenment did general human wisdom ever really reach that level again, a whole ~2300+ years since the Greek civilization flourished.

 

Ultimately religion is just an idea that was created by humans, an idea that takes a seemingly limitless number of forms, and an idea that is supposed to be infallible and all encompassing. I think any idea is dangerous if people put way too much stock and power into it. The Spanish monarchy thought it was God's will to investigate heresy and burn at the stake those who were found guilty, so they did it, no matter how much logic or reason would seem to dictate that it was a bad idea. And quite frankly, certain religions do deserve some blame for this, because in their core teachings is an attitude that God's will is everything, and that these beliefs are the only true beliefs, and those who don't believe deserve punishment. Compare the atrocities committed in the name of Christianity and Islam compared to those committed in the name of Roman or Greek paganism, or Buddhism, or whatever.

 

Oh, and there is definitely mention of homosexuality in the bible. I don't know why people are saying there isn't. Jesus didn't mention it, but there are other passages where it's made blatantly clear that God, and other disciples, don't condone it.

[Brett Favre 0]

Ultimately religion is just an idea that was created by humans, an idea that takes a seemingly limitless number of forms, and an idea that is supposed to be infallible and all encompassing..

 

Uh no.

 

And most great philosophers ascribe to the idea of God.

[World's Worst Man 0]

Yes it is, and that's basically a fact. I would suggest doing some research, because I'm certainly not going to explain something so in-depth on an internet forum.

 

And great philosophers believing in god really has no relevance, because that wasn't the point I was trying to make. Besides, they don't believe in your god anyway, so don't bother trying to legitimize your own faith based on theirs.

[Brett Favre 0]

Believing in God is half the battle (there's only one), and that's good enough for me.

 

And no it isn't a fact. The Bible is the word of God.

[World's Worst Man 0]

Ah, the bible is the word of God, a perfect being. That would explain all of the inconsistencies and absurdities. ..Oh wait.

[Brett Favre 0]

Like?

[World's Worst Man 0]

Are you for real?

 

"Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. And when they saw him." Matthew 28:16

 

"And they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together, and them that were with them, Saying, The Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon. And they told what things were done in the way, and how he was known of them in breaking of bread. And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you." - Luke 24:33-37

 

I could post more, but why bother? God is perfect!! That means there shouldn't even one be contradiction or inconsistency.

[Brett Favre 0]

Where's the contradiction from God?

[Henry Spencer 0]

And most great philosophers ascribe to the idea of God.

 

This is misleading.

[Your Paragon of Virtue 0]

And no it isn't a fact. The Bible is the word of God.

 

If you wanna believe that, that's fine.

 

I may think you're horribly wrong, but you can believe what you want.

 

When the guy running a country believes this, and makes political policies based on this, that's when I have a problem.

[World's Worst Man 0]

Where's the contradiction from God?

 

The Bible is the word of God, according to you. I know that the statement is factually incorrect, and that the bible was written by man, but I tried to be nice about it.

[Brett Favre 0]

Where's the contradiction from God?

 

The Bible is the word of God, according to you. I know that the statement is factually incorrect, and that the bible was written by man, but I tried to be nice about it.

 

No you don't. You saying something is fact or not doesn't mean anything.

 

And YPOV, what does it matter if he believes in that? I do agree with you that policies shouldn't be based around it, although there are far worse things to base policies around.

[Big Ol' Smitty 0]

Seyss-Inquart has set up a whole field of strawmen with which to do battle!

 

You know, one of the main arguments against religion is that it is the root cause of violence, intolerence, and a litany of atrocities unmatched in human history.

 

(bold added by me)

 

A root cause, not the. Although a case could be made that Islam is the most dangerous root cause of violence, intolerance, & atrocities on the planet in 2007.

 

Well, by saying religion is the root cause of seemingly all the bad things in the universe, your average atheist is saying that religion is the cause of the corruption and not the human who uses it as a tool or shield to promote or act on intolerant views.

 

(bold added by me)

 

Nobody said that!

 

Man was obviously here first and he created that tool based on his human nature. If you were to go back in time to stop man from creating various religions, the world would not be better for it, something else that would divide us would be put into play to start the cycle all over.

 

It seems likely that religion or notions of the supernatural probably played some evolutionary role among early man & our precursors. However, it seems clear that whatever purpose that was is, in the 21st century, about as useful as the proto-gills seen in fetuses.

 

What else would cause an intelligent, middle class, otherwise reasonable human being to fly a plane into a tower full of innocent people? Mental derangement. Perhaps politics.

 

Societies that have "moderated" (read: watered down) their religion (the US) or have moved toward abandonment of religion (part of Western Europe) are the most successful countries in the world today.

 

It is also enlightening to compare a "moderate religious" society like the US with a secular society like Europe. Why does the US, whose teens have sex in equal numbers to those in Europe, have much higher rates of teen pregnacy and teen VD? Because of the the repression of birth control & contraception which is directly attributable to our "moderate religion." Europe has its share of problems, but most of them are related to an influx of, you guessed it, Islam.

 

Look at Hitler; the atrocities he committed were not based on religion, but science, eugenics to be exact. He did not care about the religion of Judaism, he was disgusted by the Jews as a people, a species. His regime committed one of the largest genocides in recorded history in the name of science.

 

Nazism was neither scientific or reasonable. In fact, it was fundamentally pseudoscientific and unreasonable: secular dogma. Look at Himmler's insistence that SS officers subsist on a diet of leeks & mineral water & his fixation on Meso-Paganism. Many top officials in the 3rd Reich were totally fixated on a bizzare mysticism. There is no way you can describe what they did as grounded in reason or science.

 

Your characterization of Nazi eugenics as science is also misleading: it was pseudoscience.

 

Animals are devoid of religion, and you don't see them holding hands and singing Kum-ba-yah.

 

The species which has, far & away, the highest rate of intraspecies violence: Homo sapiens. I would suggest a cultural link, with religion playing a significant role.

[Big Ol' Smitty 0]

The above argument between Invader & Ripper is illuminating.

 

How about instead of arguing whether a holy man from the first century addressed homosexuality directly or indirectly, condoned it, or ignored it, we could just, as a society, agree that it's not cool to be intolerant toward gay people.

[Big Ol' Smitty 0]

Ultimately religion is just an idea that was created by humans, an idea that takes a seemingly limitless number of forms, and an idea that is supposed to be infallible and all encompassing..

 

Uh no.

 

And most great philosophers ascribe to the idea of God.

 

You're making an appeal to authority.

 

You're not good at this, you should let Seyss or Conspiracy Victim carry the load here.

[NoCalMike 0]

When Adam and Eve got banished from Eden, the bible said they ran into the people on Nan or Non or somewhere......it never explains where those people came from, because up to that point Adam and Eve were the only 2 people created. Did the bible just forget to mention that God was off creating other people?

[Brett Favre 0]

Ultimately religion is just an idea that was created by humans, an idea that takes a seemingly limitless number of forms, and an idea that is supposed to be infallible and all encompassing..

 

Uh no.

 

And most great philosophers ascribe to the idea of God.

 

You're making an appeal to authority.

 

You're not good at this, you should let Seyss or Conspiracy Victim carry the load here.

 

Any argument involving the existence of God comes from someone who studied the subject matter for a good part of their life. I didn't come up with the cosmological, or ontological argument. In this case, an appeal to authority is necessary.

 

If you want, i'll tell you exactly which argument from what philosopher I think makes most sense.

 

When Adam and Eve got banished from Eden, the bible said they ran into the people on Nan or Non or somewhere......it never explains where those people came from, because up to that point Adam and Eve were the only 2 people created. Did the bible just forget to mention that God was off creating other people?

 

Well there was a bunch of incest going on.

[Dobbs 3K 0]

The Bible makes mention of Cain traveling in the land of Nod, but I don't believe there's anything in there about Adam and Eve meeting other people.

[hyperchord24 0]

This is turning into a WWJD argument rather than one of the existence of a higher power. All this bible quoting is getting out of hand. The OP was asking for proof, right? What proof do we have that the bible is indeed the word of God? It could be just some bedtime story written a long time ago. This is a very simplistic way of looking at things, but I think the discussion is getting bogged down and off track. It's silly to believe in God just because the bible says you should.

 

I'm probably going to get flamed for this, but following the bible, slavery should still be legal.

[Ripper 0]

Are you for real?

 

"Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. And when they saw him." Matthew 28:16

 

"And they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together, and them that were with them, Saying, The Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon. And they told what things were done in the way, and how he was known of them in breaking of bread. And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you." - Luke 24:33-37

 

I could post more, but why bother? God is perfect!! That means there shouldn't even one be contradiction or inconsistency.

 

 

What did I miss?

[Jingus 0]

CW, there are indeed LOTS of dramatic factual inconsistencies in the Bible. Here's a list of 384 of them. Knock yourself out explaining how they aren't really mistakes. (And just wondering, Spiderpoet, is that you? Cuz this debate feels familiar.)

 

 

 

 

And yes, the Bible pretty explicitly condemns homosexuality. Several times. The obvious examples are in Leviticus, along with all the other wacky and bizarre rules in that book:

 

18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

 

20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

"If you see fags, kill 'em." How can you claim the Bible doesn't condemn it?

 

That's the most harsh examples, but there are others. Like how Noah curses his son Ham for seeing daddy naked. Or the very word "Sodom". Or where it says crossdressing is evil. Or where it forbids the Israelis to let homosexuals live in their camp or worship in their church. Or the SEVERAL times where God's chosen people exile or kill "sodomites" with God's full approval.

 

And don't give me the "well that's only in the Old Testament, that's not what Christianity really is" argument, because they keep going way into the NT as well. Romans 1:27, Corinthians 6:9, Timothy 1:10, and various others are very, very clear in their condemnation of buttfucking and pillowbiting.