9/11

[Gary Floyd 0]

"9/11 is a joke."

[Guest Gym Class Fallout]

09/11/2001

 

9+11+2-001= 21!!!!!!!

 

 

THE NUMBER 21.

I'm like 86% sure that this is how Marvin once predicted how many points the Ravens would score.

[Gary Floyd 0]

Let's not forget who was responsible, either.

... and who was that?

 

Do I really need to answer this?

 

 

"It was me America! It was me all along!"

[Steve J. Rogers 0]

Is it wrong to be so turned off by all the crap (not just on this board of course) from the conspiracy theorists and the fact that Osama is still alive, while we went after Iraq on false information (no WMD, no link to al Queda) and continue to be bogged down in what just might be something worse than Vietnam; not to mention how suddenly, and this pretty much happened rather quickly, not an evolvment, the nation just went back to its junk/scandal culture ways despite having a major "this will put things in the proper perspective" about what really matters event, that you almost get turned off by all the tributes and rememberances today.

 

No, I'm not taking shots at anyone, maybe its just that I've become way too cynical, even before 2001.

 

Not sure exactly what I'm expressing, certaintly sadness, maybe it is also frustration about certain things that happened since, I mean the 2000 election was a fracturous one for the country, and certaintly things have been boling for decades before that, but it really, really seems that things are worse now than they were even 6 years ago, heh, maybe Pearl Harbor would not have worked today as well as it did back then (and I'm sure those who think 9/11 was an inside job would feel that Pearl Harbor was rigged based on various sources).

 

Again, I don't know exactly what I'm expressing here, but I guess I just needed an outlet. Certaintly thoughts and prayers go out to those who lost family, friends, ect.

[Ripper 0]

Only people that weren't around for Vietnam would even try to compare this. I wasn't around either, but goddamn, that is just some bullshit right there.

 

 

[snuffbox 0]

Not really.

[Ripper 0]

So its okay to say a war with less than 4,000 casualties and 28k wounded is worse than the ten year war with the 89,000+ casualties, and 153k wounded?

 

Really? In what way? At this pace the war in Iraq would have to go on another 20 years to get close to the numbers of Vietnam

[snuffbox 0]

Compare 1960-1965 numbers of Vietnam. You have to take into account that it was only after the major escalations began in '65 that the huge casualties began. In Iraq we have only now topped out our troop level and it is still less than 1/3 of what the high-mark in Vietnam was. While Vietnam, over its entire course was far worse in total casualties, it has to be realized that Iraq has been shorter so far & fough with a much smaller (pointlessly small) force. Also, Iraq has been a much more disastrous strategic mistake than was Vietnam. Whereas Vietnam falling never would have resulted in the 'dominoes' falling, and the Iraqis never will make it over to America, we have allowed actual terrorism to go largely ignored. So, while you are right in saying that Vietnam was worse in terms of total casualties, it is also true that Iraq worse strategically. Both are terrible in that they will have badly effected all its actual participants (the soldiers not the draft/service dodging cheerleaders back home) as well as their families, friends, and descendants. Sims, a Minneapolis rapper, has a brilliant line in one of his songs, "my generation is the seeds of Vietnam", and it is extremely accurate. The next, and worst yet, chapter of the Vietnam War is that this generation must repeat all of those mistakes in the name of leaders who refuse to learn. In 20 years another poet will be saying 'my generation is the seeds of Iraq' and we can only hope we aren't repeated the same horror in another country.

[St. Gabe 0]

Anachronisms will get us nowhere. Historians, in their roles as historians know that taking present situations and placing them over the past in some sort of way to understand the past or the present is an easy trap to fall into. History should be studied for the sake of history. This isn't to say there is no value in analyaing and comparing similar situations, but to come out and just say that Vietnam=Iraq....well, no... Vietnam=Vietnam. Iraq=Iraq, and both suck.

[snuffbox 0]

Nobody is saying one equals the other, as far as I can tell. The thing is, there are two main reasons for the importance of understanding history. One is to be culturally aware & the other is to provide ourselves with beacons from which to learn valuable lessons about our present and future. By brushing Vietnam aside as just some terrible thing in our past that we should largely ignore or leave only to academics is wrong. It is a major part of who we are & will continue to be, just as Iraq is & will be.

 

History should never be studied just for the sake of history. Sure, some of the stories are compelling (especially when they're about war) but their relevance to culture & the clues they always provide for possible future pratfalls & achievments are the real reasons for history's study.

[Ripper 0]

Compare 1960-1965 numbers of Vietnam. You have to take into account that it was only after the major escalations began in '65 that the huge casualties began. In Iraq we have only now topped out our troop level and it is still less than 1/3 of what the high-mark in Vietnam was. While Vietnam, over its entire course was far worse in total casualties, it has to be realized that Iraq has been shorter so far & fough with a much smaller (pointlessly small) force. Also, Iraq has been a much more disastrous strategic mistake than was Vietnam. Whereas Vietnam falling never would have resulted in the 'dominoes' falling, and the Iraqis never will make it over to America, we have allowed actual terrorism to go largely ignored. So, while you are right in saying that Vietnam was worse in terms of total casualties, it is also true that Iraq worse strategically. Both are terrible in that they will have badly effected all its actual participants (the soldiers not the draft/service dodging cheerleaders back home) as well as their families, friends, and descendants. Sims, a Minneapolis rapper, has a brilliant line in one of his songs, "my generation is the seeds of Vietnam", and it is extremely accurate. The next, and worst yet, chapter of the Vietnam War is that this generation must repeat all of those mistakes in the name of leaders who refuse to learn. In 20 years another poet will be saying 'my generation is the seeds of Iraq' and we can only hope we aren't repeated the same horror in another country.

 

 

I don't even think that you can even say that Iraq has been more disastrous strategically. The purpose of the Iraq war was to remove the regime that was then in power from power, which was accomplished. The area was then thrown into disarray when several different factions are fighting for power and killing those that oppose theirs.

 

Vietnam didn't even accomplish the initial goal, so how can you say Iraq was worse stratigically. Yes, things could have been done better in Iraq, but once again, there is literally no way the the military casualties and the civilian casualities will come close to that of Vietnam in the same amount of time.

 

What terrorism has been "largely" ignored? Any and everything that is happening in this war happened at a much larger scale in Vietnam.

 

If you want to say this war has been bad the fine, but I repeat, it is absolutely ridiculous to say that the Iraq war is worse than Vietnam.

[snuffbox 0]

The point of the war was nation-building, a strategy destined for failure. The attention given to this war led to the weakening of our efforts in Afghanistan thus allowing our actual attackers to rebuild there, Bin Laden is granted freedom (or 'amnesty' as the Mexican-haters would say), and Pakistan can't be touched or even mentioned. The strong coalition behind America immediately after 9/11 has evaporated entirely due to the Iraq war. This is far more than just a "some things might have gone a bit wrong" problem. And if, like with Vietnam, our future leaders refuse to learn any lessons from Iraq we will see another generation bogged down & crippled in another mindless war without legitimate reason.

[Jingus 0]

The point of the war was nation-building, a strategy destined for failure.

Bullshit. Germany and Japan are two big examples.

 

And no, Iraq isn't like Vietnam. When the Iraq casualties have become more than a small fraction of Vietnam's, when we're pushed out of the region and retreat like we did in Saigon, and most especially when the draft is reinstated, then you might have an argument. Til then? No, they're quite different.

[snuffbox 0]

Neither Germany or Japan were examples of nation building. And, sorry, but casualty totals & troop size are not the only way to compare two extremely similar wars. I know you really appreciate what GWB has been doing with his Administration's time but the mistakes (the one's that the limpwristed cheerleaders wave their flags to disguise) are almost exactly the same.

[Jingus 0]

Neither Germany or Japan were examples of nation building.

Are you serious? The Allies blew the shit out of those countries, destroying the vast majority of the infrastructure. We had to literally rebuild them from the ground up. And it worked.

 

I know you really appreciate what GWB has been doing with his Administration's time

Do you really think I'm a Bush cheerleader? Really? Here's a question: from what you believe you know about me, describe my actions on election day 2000.

 

[snuffbox 0]

You might want to re-check the definition of 'nation building'. By your view the Reconstruction of the post-Civil War South would apparently be nation building as well.

 

I don't care what you did in November of 2000.

[Jingus 0]

Nation building: taking a devastated post-war nation, throwing out its former leadership, and rebuilding the infrastructure and political process. What's your definition?

 

And c'mon, don't duck the question like that, do you really think I'm some kind of right-winger kkkonservative who think the sun shines out of GWB's asshole?

[Ginger Snaps 0]

You might want to re-check the definition of 'nation building'. By your view the Reconstruction of the post-Civil War South would apparently be nation building as well.

 

It basically was.

[NoCalMike 0]

Iraq doesn't need to be compared to Vietnam in order to be considered a failure. Comparisons can be made, and I wish people would look past the number of casualties when analyzing a war. The war in Iraq is an occupation/police action. It is the policy itself that is the similar in Vietnam. In other words: BAD POLICY If you want a reason the casualities are different, you can first look to the fact that our air power pretty much went in and decimated Baghadad before the troops were sent in. Then the fact that we aren't fighting an army, in fact we aren't really fighting at all, in other words our army is being used as police, we are in the middle of a civil war with both sides shooting at us as well as each other.

 

This entire "surge is working" rhetoric is a bunch of bullshit. Casualties are down, but the number of attacks themselves are up and lets not even get into what this administration has stopped considering a "battlefield casualty" Also, the purpose of the surge, or so they said was to cut down the violence in order to advance the political process, where has there been any examples of this happening? It seems that the administration has just once again cherry picked some statistics about casualities in order to the lay the ground work for a continued escalation of the war, which is really what the word "surge" means anyway.

 

The war itself is not as bad as Vietnam, but it's implications and what it will possibly spawn will put us in more danger in the future then the outcome of Vietnam did.

 

The truth of the matter is that in 2005 we were told that there was over 100,000 Iraqi police forces ready to go, so why in the fuck could those iraqi police and army members be used as the 30,000 needed for the surge?

[BX 0]

Did anyone blame North Korea? Or Communism? Cause I just don't recall either of those getting blamed.

 

The day it happened, this weird, mid-40's redneck woman in my arts class INSISTED that "communistic Russians" were responsible, and that they were also responsible for training all those sharks to attack people around Florida that summer (Does anyone remember that?)

[snuffbox 0]

In about 30 years Sean Hannity will be just like that, drooling and pulling apart appliances at his nursing homesto find the Mexicans and Muslims.

[Guest Vitamin X]

Did anyone blame North Korea? Or Communism? Cause I just don't recall either of those getting blamed.

 

The day it happened, this weird, mid-40's redneck woman in my arts class INSISTED that "communistic Russians" were responsible, and that they were also responsible for training all those sharks to attack people around Florida that summer (Does anyone remember that?)

 

Is this the sort of incredible education one receives at Appalachian State.

[snuffbox 0]

That kind of thinking isn't rare in this country.

[Ginger Snaps 0]

blah blah blah blah

 

making me sleepy here.

[EricMM 0]

Well, you cannot deny that this has been a horrible war for our army and our capital and our foreign relations.

[snuffbox 0]

"No because Saddam was worse for America and other dumbass bullshit."

[Ginger Snaps 0]

Well, you cannot deny that this has been a horrible war for our army and our capital and our foreign relations.

 

yay let's make a million threads and posts in this folder saying just that

 

 

[snuffbox 0]

It's what you keep coming back for.

[Jingus 0]

"No because Saddam was worse for America and other dumbass bullshit."

Show me where I ever once said that Saddam did anything to America and you might have a point there.

[EricMM 0]

Well, you cannot deny that this has been a horrible war for our army and our capital and our foreign relations.

 

yay let's make a million threads and posts in this folder saying just that

Fair enough.

 

But instead of hooting down other peoples attempts at points, raise your own. Retort instead of saying "blah blah blah"

 

In other words, my post was an attempt to get you to deny it, or say anything at all...