NBA Playoffs 2008 - Round 1

[Damaramu 0]

I guess the Suns decided to prolong the agony.

[chaosrage 0]

I guess the Suns decided that they want to make NBA history.

 

Fixed.

[alfdogg 0]

These last few weeks should be enough to erase any doubt as to who the best player on the Mavs is.

[teke184 0]

Hornets win, 97-84, to go up 3-1 in the series.

 

 

Jason Kidd may not be back for Game 5. He got tossed from Game 4 for a Flagrant 2 on Jannero Pargo and, AFAIK, Stern has the ability to impose further punishment for cheap bitch-hits like that.

 

(Kidd hooked Pargo on a layup and slammed him to the ground pretty hard. It was like watching a midget beat up an Oompa Loompa...)

[teke184 0]

These last few weeks should be enough to erase any doubt as to who the best player on the Mavs is.

Brandon Bass? Because it sure isn't Josh Howard and it's questionable on Dirk at times.

[alfdogg 0]

Maybe tonight, but Dirk is pretty much the sole reason they're even in the playoffs right now. I seem to remember there being some "Josh Howard is the REAL All-Star on the Mavericks" talk popping up at some points in the season, which is why I mentioned that. I don't dislike Josh Howard or anything, but come on.

[Jorge Gorgeous 0]

What is AFAIK?

[alfdogg 0]

as far as i know

[Rendclaw 0]

This is the backlash of the Jordan era.

 

Every SG/SF that comes out nowadays that has a great amount of talent all of a sudden has to have that "I'll snap my own grandmother's neck to win" mentality, or has to have the extremely rare ability to put the team on his back and take over in the 4th quarter of games like Jordan did in order to be great. Talent and a desire to win are not enough anymore, now it has to be a combination of talent and a desire to win at all costs. The bar is set for these guys way high, almost impossibly high for most.

I have a couple problems here. First of all, I find it hard to believe that the concept of talented athletes trying to win at all costs did not exist prior to 1990. Second of all, you call this a backlash, which has a distinct negative connotation. I want a league where the best are playing their hardest. Why should anyone settle for anything less? I don't think the bar is impossibly high. Replacement-level talent plays to win at all costs. Why shouldn't superstars?

 

My spin on Rendclaw's point is moreso that the league wants to find their Jordan sequel for marketing purposes. Jordan was an unbelievably talented SG/SF who had the ability to carry and take over for his team. The league made a lot of money being Jordan-centric, and apparently Stern and his marketing guys are like someone who can't get over an old girlfriend.

 

Endorsement and promotion wise, they favor any superstar level SG/SF, like Kobe and Lebron, and the lesser ones like Wade, Carter and McGrady (and we'll throw Carmelo Anthony in here for the hell of it). They always get compared to Jordan, and the media covers them accordingly. Denver, Lakers, Miami and Cleveland each had twenty nationally televised games this season.

 

Everyone wants a league where the players are playing their hardest. So if your going to be labeled a Jordan-esque player you have to play accordingly. If you can deal with that, you'll be fine, like Kobe and Lebron. If you can't, you become the BUTT of everyone's jokes, like McGrady and Carter.

 

I agree with everything you said. Magic, Bird, and Erving might have saved the NBA, but Jordan made the NBA successful beyond its wildest dreams, and Stern and his comrades want the next cash cow. Stern made the NBA about the players and much less about the teams, and its not going back. Promotion of the players takes such a high precedence, it borders on the ridiculous. That's why I laud the Pistons' win in 2004; they were a team and they won as such, not because they had one player dominating the scoring and headlines.

[Guest blame that goot.]

The Pistons beating the Lakers in 2004 was a big deal because we had the Kobe/Shaq/Malone/Payton/Phil circus being shoved down our throats with the dual storylines of all these guys hating each other and the fact that they were entitled to a world championship from day one, and lest we forget, "Kobe was IN COURT, then ON THE COURT" every damn game. Then, when the comparatively unheralded Pistons came out of the certainly unheralded Eastern Conference and dismantled the me-first Lakers with team-first basketball, it was actually really cool. The Spurs just sort of trudge their way to titles without really slaying any dragons or overcoming any odds and hype, so they suck. Also, they're whiny bitches, and not in the fun Rasheed Wallace way, but in the "oh no it is my elbow you hurt so bad" Manu Ginobili way.

 

Now the Pistons are individually renowned, and act like they're entitled to a world championship. The ouroboros of the NBA.

[alfdogg 0]

 

[A Happy Medium 0]

Dirk is the best player on the Mavericks. I have been watching this team for a decade, and with or without a dominant point guard, he plays a mean game of basketball. The Mavericks are old. This is what happened to them.

 

If I had things my way, I would blow it up in the off-season. I would for certain keep Nowitzki and Brandon Bass. On the bubble I would have J.J. Barea (he had garbage minutes tonight and should have had a shot at Paul earlier in the series...oh and the main reason being that Dirk needs a buddy on the team), Josh Howard (as he does have trade value at this moment, but may be able to turn it around after losing his best friend this season in Devin Harris, and losing his then best friend Marquis Daniels a couple of years ago), and Jerry Stackhouse (when he is healthy, he is great to have around for the possibility of lighting up the scoreboard and his gigantic testicles).

 

The Mavs would most likely have to eat the contract of Kidd, who just doesn't have it anymore. After watching his flagrant foul tonight, he deserves a suspension. Let him play it out next season in what would be a transition year for the ballclub.

 

They need to do away with Devean George, Malik Allen, Eddie Jones, Jason Terry, and of course, Erick Dampier.

 

The trade value with Howard is important. They could possibly package him with big Stone Hands from the above sentence.

 

I cannot stand the sight of George. I hate his jumpshot, too.

 

The main thing for the Mavericks in the offseason is to go shopping for a good number two and get a reliable if unspectacular center. Dirk is turning thirty in June. With the condition he keeps himself in, I could see his prime lasting deep into his middle thirties. They need to get younger and faster now.

[Precious Roy 0]

I like the new Jordan commercial where he's basically like, "It's not my fault nobody can live up to the hype, quit being bitches and try harder."

[alfdogg 0]

Hedo Turkoglu will be named Most Improved Player.

[Ripper 0]

This is the backlash of the Jordan era.

 

Every SG/SF that comes out nowadays that has a great amount of talent all of a sudden has to have that "I'll snap my own grandmother's neck to win" mentality, or has to have the extremely rare ability to put the team on his back and take over in the 4th quarter of games like Jordan did in order to be great. Talent and a desire to win are not enough anymore, now it has to be a combination of talent and a desire to win at all costs. The bar is set for these guys way high, almost impossibly high for most.

I have a couple problems here. First of all, I find it hard to believe that the concept of talented athletes trying to win at all costs did not exist prior to 1990. Second of all, you call this a backlash, which has a distinct negative connotation. I want a league where the best are playing their hardest. Why should anyone settle for anything less? I don't think the bar is impossibly high. Replacement-level talent plays to win at all costs. Why shouldn't superstars?

 

My spin on Rendclaw's point is moreso that the league wants to find their Jordan sequel for marketing purposes. Jordan was an unbelievably talented SG/SF who had the ability to carry and take over for his team. The league made a lot of money being Jordan-centric, and apparently Stern and his marketing guys are like someone who can't get over an old girlfriend.

 

Endorsement and promotion wise, they favor any superstar level SG/SF, like Kobe and Lebron, and the lesser ones like Wade, Carter and McGrady (and we'll throw Carmelo Anthony in here for the hell of it). They always get compared to Jordan, and the media covers them accordingly. Denver, Lakers, Miami and Cleveland each had twenty nationally televised games this season.

 

Everyone wants a league where the players are playing their hardest. So if your going to be labeled a Jordan-esque player you have to play accordingly. If you can deal with that, you'll be fine, like Kobe and Lebron. If you can't, you become the BUTT of everyone's jokes, like McGrady and Carter.

 

I agree with everything you said. Magic, Bird, and Erving might have saved the NBA, but Jordan made the NBA successful beyond its wildest dreams, and Stern and his comrades want the next cash cow. Stern made the NBA about the players and much less about the teams, and its not going back. Promotion of the players takes such a high precedence, it borders on the ridiculous. That's why I laud the Pistons' win in 2004; they were a team and they won as such, not because they had one player dominating the scoring and headlines.

 

 

The thing is, now there are 5 versions of "that guy". What made the Jordan thing so amazing (and annoying) was that he was THE guy. The league practically ignored the rest of the NBA and shoved Jordan all day down your throats. You guys are complaining about seeing the same 5 teams all the time on National TV now? It used to be the bulls versus someone ever week. Thats it. Bulls vs somebody.

 

All they talked about was Jordan. If the bulls lost, every highlight was still Jordan(which is still one of the more ridiculous things ever).

 

He was the perfect marketing tool. The league even went through great lengths to make sure his gambling, temper and stripper fucking never touched the light of day.

 

Its the reason to this day people don't realize how good Scottie Pippen actually was, or how incredible guys like Wilkins, Barkley, Drexler and others were, because the league was like "Fuck those guys...whats Michael going to sell now".

 

It was a somewhat genius and somewhat flawed move though. On one hand, it made them alot of money. On the other...he had to eventually retire and they are never going to find a combination of looks, interview skills, and silky smoothness to the game and maintain a firm grasp of the medias balls to make another Jordan.

 

 

[Rendclaw 0]

I agree with that, too. Jordan was as imperfect as the rest of us. His competitiveness got way out of control at times, but you never heard about it because he was the face of the league. Believe me, if Stern could have gotten away with it, Jerry West would not be the logo right now.

 

The closest thing they have right now to Jordan 2.0 is Kobe, and that's only because Kobe patterned himself after Jordan in so many ways it was silly. People made fun of him. Only recently did Kobe realize that he needed to show his humanity and trying to be THE MAN every second of every day wasn't going to fly because people are tired of that act, no matter what you do on the court.

 

As far as his on the court performance it is much more watchable, because he has teammates he can trust and whats more important, *he decided to trust them*. He's happier than a pig in mud right now not only because he has better players, but he finally realized that he can't do it all himself, no matter the level of ability of his teammates. Its a repeat of Jordan as far as the realization and his team getting people he can pass the ball to.

 

And that's a place where LeBron needs to get to. He already is more willing to play through the system and pass first. As was said before he is a Magic/Jordan hybrid, but he needs much better players to make noise in the East. He came into the league with a hell of a lot of fanfare and hype, he proved he can handle it and live up to it, now he needs a better team around him.

 

I just wish that Stern and the networks would go back to promoting the teams as a whole rather than the individual players, but I know that age is never, EVER coming back for a number of reasons.

[Brett Favre 0]

The NBA made most money when Pete Maravich was getting marketed instead of teams. It's been a while since the NBA was about teams.

[Guest blame that goot.]

Its the reason to this day people don't realize how good Scottie Pippen actually was, or how incredible guys like Wilkins, Barkley, Drexler and others were, because the league was like "Fuck those guys...whats Michael going to sell now".

Yeah, but didn't a bunch of people here want to drop Scottie from the 50 best NBA players in favor of like, I dunno, someone who wasn't as good? Like, Tony Parker or something?

[Steviekick 0]

I'd never put Parker over Pippen.

[cabbageboy 0]

I actually disagree with that assessment of the NBA in the 1990s. Only the absolute most casual viewer would have said the league was about Jordan and Jordan only. In fact the overall league wasn't really even hurt all that much by his brief 1994-95 retirement, mainly because all the other teams still had the stars that they already had, and in some cases teams caught on with the public due to newer stars (Shaq and Penny with the Magic, Reggie Miller became a massive star due to his exploits vs. the Knicks). Add to it you had the Ewing Knicks, Barkley with the Suns, Hakeem (and later Drexler) on the Rockets, David Robinson on the Spurs, Malone and Stockton on the Jazz, Payton and Kemp with the Sonics, the list goes on and on.

 

Nearly every team in the 1990s seemed like they had SOMEBODY. Hell even the otherwise pitiful Sacramento Kings of the 90s had Mitch Richmond.

 

As far as the Spurs go, I think personally it's been hard to buy into their run because of a few reasons. First, they won their first title in a lame lockout year by beating a #8 seed Knicks. Not exactly the most credible way to begin a run. Second, the Shaq/Kobe Lakers largely beat their asses in the playoffs in 2001, 02, and 04. Also, the Spurs were solid contenders in the 1990s but there was never that ONE team that gave them hell...they just kinda lost to a variety of teams. So there was no one for them to finally overcome. Lastly, let's face it...none of the Spurs Finals have been any good at all. The 1999 Finals vs. the Knicks was a tedious 5 game squash. 2003 was a dull, heatless semi squash against a wildly overmatched Nets. Last year was a 4 game squash of the Cavs, who really had no business going that far. I guess the 2005 Pistons series went 7, but 5 or 6 games of it were almost completely unwatchable, with the Horry 3 pointer game being the lone highlight.

[Ripper 0]

Yeah, but cabbageboy, the only way to see most of those 90's teams was if they were playing the Bulls. (and I am talking early 90's here). Around about 92-93 we started seeing others, but from around 88-93, it was all Jordan all the time. By the time the 3-peat came around people were just tired of the bulls. Then Jordan retired and was able to renew intrest in himself when he came back.

 

The reason that we don't have a "jordan" now is because Kobe was a kinda rapist, threw bitchy fits in front of the camera and has routinely been called selfish and that whole break up of the Laker dynasty unfairly got pinned on him. Lebron won't be it, simply because Lebron is ugly.

 

Jordan was a all around marketing guy. Nobody wants to look at stills of Lebron James.

 

I think dewayne wade has the most possiblity for this current crop to be THE Jordan.

[naiwf 0]

Yeah, but Wade got fat and lost his explosiveness. Watching Wade this year was like watching Jordan when he was a Wizard.

[Damaramu 0]

Yeah, but Wade got fat and lost his explosiveness. Watching Wade this year was like watching Jordan when he was a Wizard.

 

Plus I think a lot of people still have a bad taste in their mouth about Wade's first championship. Jordan never won it like that.

 

On Kobe, honestly he's done a great job reinventing himself. I honestly can barely remember the rape stuff now. I almost forget it happened sometimes. I don't think he's anywhere near as offensive as he once was. He just seems like a great basketball player to me now, and he's done so many PR ads that he's starting to get back his image of being an all-around nice guy that you can root for.

 

However, I can't root for him because of the team he plays for and all the insane hype, but all the problems people had with him have pretty much floated away for me. He doesn't seem like a bad guy anymore, he seems more like a good guy.

 

He's young and if he continues down this road then he'll come back around to being THE guy.

[Damaramu 0]

Oh yeah, and speaking of the Lakers. I hope they just end it tonight. I don't want to see the Nuggets get beat on anymore. It's just boring. I'm ready for all the first round series to end actually.

[PUT THAT DICK IN MY MOUTH! 0]

Kobe will never be Jordan in a marketing/face-of-the-league type way because his personality will always be way, way, way too thorny for real mass consumption. I mean, could you ever see Kobe starring in a movie with fuckin' Bugs Bunny? No way.

 

The next MJ is obv. Kevin Durant. That kid's a real cutie pie.

[Mr. S£im Citrus 0]

As far as the Spurs go, I think personally it's been hard to buy into their run because of a few reasons. First, they won their first title in a lame lockout year by beating a #8 seed Knicks. Not exactly the most credible way to begin a run. Second, the Shaq/Kobe Lakers largely beat their asses in the playoffs in 2001, 02, and 04. Also, the Spurs were solid contenders in the 1990s but there was never that ONE team that gave them hell...they just kinda lost to a variety of teams. So there was no one for them to finally overcome. Lastly, let's face it...none of the Spurs Finals have been any good at all. The 1999 Finals vs. the Knicks was a tedious 5 game squash. 2003 was a dull, heatless semi squash against a wildly overmatched Nets. Last year was a 4 game squash of the Cavs, who really had no business going that far. I guess the 2005 Pistons series went 7, but 5 or 6 games of it were almost completely unwatchable, with the Horry 3 pointer game being the lone highlight.

It's funny how two people can look at the same thing and see something completely different. To me, the 2003 (Spurs/Nets), 2004 (Pistons/Lakers) and 2005 (Spurs/Pistons) Finals were the three Finals series I've enjoyed the most since I first started to really get into basketball in the early nineties. I didn't enjoy the Bulls dynasty at all, despite the fact that I actually lived north of Chicago for the first three. I liked the Rockets run alright; I mostly enjoyed their second run for the way they swept Orlando (even when he was a rookie, I didn't like Shaq, and since I was stationed in Orlando in '95, all I heard was Magic this, Magic that, for four months, and I couldn't stand it)... Come to think of it, I generally considered all of Shaq's championships as unwatchable.

 

I enjoy watching Tim Duncan play, and I appear to be the only person outside of San Antonio who likes Bruce Bowen. Plus, the Admiral was always one of my favorite players, even before I decided that I wanted to join the Navy. In fact, it may well be my military background that explains why I like the Spurs so much: they just seem like a "lead from the top down" organization, and it appeals to me.

[Golgo 13 0]

Oh yeah, and speaking of the Lakers. I hope they just end it tonight. I don't want to see the Nuggets get beat on anymore. It's just boring. I'm ready for all the first round series to end actually.

 

As a Denver fan I want them to take one or two with their backs against the wall and save a little face. There's also the realization that they've basically given up and such a scenario against a far superior Lakers team would ultimately be for naught, only raising false hopes and prolonging the final humiliation for a few days more. No matter what they do now, it wouldn't change what they need to do in the offseason, but I also fear that coming back in the series would derail those changes and cause them to stand pat.

[Coffin Surfer 0]

Maybe tonight, but Dirk is pretty much the sole reason they're even in the playoffs right now. I seem to remember there being some "Josh Howard is the REAL All-Star on the Mavericks" talk popping up at some points in the season, which is why I mentioned that. I don't dislike Josh Howard or anything, but come on.

 

Yeah, I remember that. Howard at his best was a glorified garbage man on offense and a solid athletic defender, now he's just lazy shit on both ends. As I said than he is not the type of guy you can run an offense through and he has been an embaressment the last half of the season and in the playoffs. It is easy to pick up points when you have somebody like Dirk drawing attention but now he isn't even willing to do that, mising wide open lay ups and the like.

 

Now I will admit I was wrong about the Kidd trade for the time being, but he was playing fine until Avery started pulling him from games and bitching at him to score.

[Ripper 0]

You know, it sucks that I couldn't get my tickets for the Hawks game because of all the "fans" showing up from nowhere. I am usually in the box, but I wasn't able to get to any tickets before the game so I looked for regular seats. And I couldn't because they were sold out due to all the FANS down here.

 

Anyway...good half.

[Damaramu 0]

Ok I'm getting pissed. What the fuck Celtics?