Scientists: Same sex couples found in nature.

[SamoaRowe 0]

Clara Moskowitz

LiveScience Staff Writer

LiveScience.com

Fri May 16, 5:31 PM ET

 

As gay couples celebrate their newfound right to marry in California and opposition groups rally to fight the ruling, many struggle with this question: Is homosexuality natural?

 

On this issue, Nature has spoken: Same-sex lovin' is common in hundreds of species, scientists say.

 

Roy and Silo, two male chinstrap penguins at New York's Central Park Zoo, were a couple for about six years, during which they nurtured a fertilized egg together (given to them by a zookeeper) and raised the young chick that hatched.

 

According to University of Oslo zoologist Petter Böckman, about 1,500 animal species are known to practice same-sex coupling, including bears, gorillas, flamingos, owls, salmon and many others.

 

If homosexuality is natural in the animal kingdom, then there is the question of why evolution hasn't eliminated this trait from the gene pool, since it doesn't lead to reproduction.

 

It may simply be for pleasure.

 

"Not every sexual act has a reproductive function," said Janet Mann, a biologist at Georgetown University who studies dolphins (homosexual behavior is very common in these marine mammals). "That's true of humans and non-humans."

 

Some scientists have proposed that being gay may serve its own evolutionary purpose.

 

"It could be a way that you strengthen bonds - that's one hypothesis," Mann told LiveScience. "Another is that it could be practice for heterosexual sex. Bottlenose dolphin calves mount each other a lot. That might benefit them later on."

 

Marlene Zuk, a biologist at the University of California, Riverside, suggested that gay individuals contribute to the gene pool of their community by nurturing their relatives' young without diverting resources by having their own offspring.

 

One thing that does seem to be exclusive to humans is homophobia.

 

"It's a very interesting question as to why anybody ever cares," Mann said. "There are different theories about why people find it threatening. Some think it disrupts male bonds, like you're not playing for the right team. The funny thing is that people say homosexuality is unnatural, that non-humans don't engage in homosexual behavior, but that's not true. Then they'll say it's base and animalistic."

 

Humans' resistance to the idea of homosexuality extends even to research on the behavior in animals. Scientists who study the topic are often accused of trying to forward an agenda, and their work can come under greater scrutiny than that of their colleagues who study other topics, Mann said

 

"It's kind of a shame because I think that probably is a reason why people don't look at it more," Mann said. "That's probably why we haven't gotten further. You would think we'd know more than we do by now."

 

... so I want to end it now. Come out all of you who somehow oppose gay marraige. Explain yourself. What's the big fucking deal! How do gays getting married impact your life? Why is it wrong?

 

And I don't want to hear any explanations that include "Because the Bible says so." Sorry, that doesn't fly when it comes to a legal institution such as marraige. And even if it does, why is there no crusade to end the serving of shell fish in restaurants?

 

So if you're against gay marraige, why? Explain yourself and try not to sound like too big of a jackass in the process. Don't say anything in this thread that you wouldn't say to a gay couple to their face. Let's end this once and for all.

 

[Dobbs 3K 0]

I'm not interested in debating the results of a study that seemed obviously designed to promote the pro-gay agenda. We are not equivalent to animals, anyway.

 

I have no problem with gay couples getting the same rights as married ones...I am opposed to gay marriage on the grounds that, like it or not, this country was founded on Judeo-Christian principles, and gay marriage is not a part of that tradition. Our culture is based on the basic family unit being the building block of society, and a gay couple simply does not fit into that mold. This does not even bring into the equation the fact that gay couples cannot naturally reproduce to begin with. It doesn't mean I hate gays, etc...it just means I don't think we should recognize something that isn't equivalent to two people of the opposite sex forming a family.

 

I highly doubt this thread of yours is going "to end this once and for all", at any rate. I realize I am in the extreme minority on this, but I can live with that. Let's face it, this message board, like most, leans heavily left. It's no big secret.

[megaadvice 0]

If God created all of us then why did he create some people gay??

 

Also there seems to be some misconception in the world and especially in America that somehow gay people CHOOSE to be gay. Don't for the life of you even mention the word gay to any children because OMGZZZ they might "turn gay" and it will poisen their mindz. Why the hell would choose to be gay, they are gay because they can't get attracted to the oppersite sex.

[Dobbs 3K 0]

I think you almost formed a coherent sentence somewhere in there. Keep trying, you'll get there!

[Guest Tzar Lysergic]

Yeah, that was a really dumb retort.

 

My stance on the entire issue is "Don't give a shit."

 

Someone can marry (and fuck) a dog for all I care, morally.

 

Homosexuality in the animal kingdom is factual, though, not a theory pursued for the sake of the gay agenda.

[Jingus 0]

this country was founded on Judeo-Christian principles,

Well, technically it was founded on one specific sect of Judeo-Christian principles because it disagreed with another group. And many of the most important founding fathers were Deists, which sit in the same general ballpark as snake-handlers and Mormons as being considered "sort of Christian but not really" by the religious mainstream. So it's not like we ever had a consensus on what was right or wrong.

 

and gay marriage is not a part of that tradition.

Neither is treating women as being equal to men. Or tolerating anyone who worships differently. Shit changes. Deal with it.

 

Our culture is based on the basic family unit being the building block of society, and a gay couple simply does not fit into that mold.

There is no "basic family unit". Not now. The divorce rate is officially over 50% now, is it not? The majority of children are now raised in a "nontraditional" manner.

 

Come up with a better reason than "it's how we've always done it".

[Maztinho 0]

As a Mormon I can safely say we aren't "as out there" as snake-handlers. But that's another debate completely.

 

On a personal level I believe we all have a God given right to choose, and while I don't agree with homosexuality, that's their business and they can sort it out.

[Jingus 0]

As a Mormon I can safely say we aren't "as out there" as snake-handlers. But that's another debate completely.

Not saying you are (I personally think all religions are more or less equally kooky, but that's neither here nor there). Just saying that your average faithful Baptist, Catholic, or adherent of the other similar Walmarts of Christianity do tend to think that Mormons are some kind of cult. That you all live in Utah and have three teenage wives and wear dorky button-downs with short sleeves and ties, and that you get all your beliefs from a fictional book written by some madman who claimed to get it from an invisible angel. My personal view of that interpretation would be "This sure is a nice glass house, hey let's sling some stones!". But it's one that tends to be prevalent among people who just believe whatever their preacher tells them. And considering some of their rather unusual beliefs which differed from the typical Christian mainstream, if Deism was still a strong movement today it would likely be lumped into the same type of category. Yes, this means that by standard fundamentalist theory, Thomas Jefferson is burning in hell next to Hitler and whoever made the first telemarketing phone call.

[Maztinho 0]

Oh I knew where you were coming from that most Christians don't think we are Christians, I was just pointing out that we aren't that out in left field. We have different beliefs than Joe Southern Baptist, but hey, whatcha gonna do?

 

Fun fact there's more LDS people in California than there is in Utah.

[tekcop 0]

I didn't bother to read the article, but this is really, really, really old news.

[The Metal Maniac 0]

I've never really understood why animals doing something means it's okay for people to do it too. If someone person was discovered to be a cannibal who ate their kids, do you really think anyone is gonna argue "No, it's okay, some animals do that!"

 

Now, granted, that's something else entirely, but I'm just saying, I hate that logic. Gay people can go do whatever they want, but I don't think "some animal does it" should be the reason, you know?

[tekcop 0]

I've been using this argument for years. Never necessarily saying "Animals do it, so can we!" but just to point out that it's not something exclusive to humans.

[Ripper 0]

from a religious stand point, if a person is in a religion that recognizes their gay marriage, i don't understand how it is anyone's business.

 

its like telling a hindu he isn't really married because it wasn't a christian marriage. thats just dumb.

 

ripper - its no capital letter saturday!

[Guest Tzar Lysergic]

Animals doing something is a terrific logical example. Sexually speaking, especially. There's nothing more animalistic than sex, unless you're doing it wrong.

[Dobbs 3K 0]

There is no "basic family unit". Not now. The divorce rate is officially over 50% now, is it not? The majority of children are now raised in a "nontraditional" manner.

 

Come up with a better reason than "it's how we've always done it".

 

Jingus, you have to recognize, all that other stuff aside, that openly gay married couples have NEVER been a part of Western society at large. You can't expect our society just to up and suddenly say "OK, you homos can get hitched now," despite what a grand PC idea that might be.

 

You also have to recognize that as much as you might have a right to say "Gays should be able to get married!", I (and millions of others) have a right to say "That goes against my religious views." If you don't like it, I don't care.

[Guest Desensitized]

I am opposed to gay marriage on the grounds that, like it or not, this country was founded on Judeo-Christian principles, and gay marriage is not a part of that tradition. Our culture is based on the basic family unit being the building block of society, and a gay couple simply does not fit into that mold.

Fair enough, but I'd rather just let them marry. It isn't important to me.

 

Also, what the fuck is Jingus talking about? Mormons, deists, and snake handlers? Wal-Mart of Christianity? Deism isn't "sort of Christian" at all.

[Twisted Intestine 0]

The funny thing is that people say homosexuality is unnatural, that non-humans don't engage in homosexual behavior, but that's not true. Then they'll say it's base and animalistic.

 

"We are not equivalent to animals, anyway."

 

Scientests who study the topic are often accused of trying to forward an agenda, and their work can come under greater scrutiny than that of their colleagues who study other topics, Mann said

 

"I'm not interested in debating the results of a study that seemed obviously designed to promote the pro-gay agenda."

 

[Twisted Intestine 0]

There is no "basic family unit". Not now. The divorce rate is officially over 50% now, is it not? The majority of children are now raised in a "nontraditional" manner.

 

Come up with a better reason than "it's how we've always done it".

 

Jingus, you have to recognize, all that other stuff aside, that openly gay married couples have NEVER been a part of Western society at large. You can't expect our society just to up and suddenly say "OK, you homos can get hitched now," despite what a grand PC idea that might be.

 

You also have to recognize that as much as you might have a right to say "Gays should be able to get married!", I (and millions of others) have a right to say "That goes against my religious views." If you don't like it, I don't care.

 

Exactly, your religious views... so why should they be forced onto someone else? As long as they don't get married in your church, you can keep your views and they can be treated equally by society and keep theirs. If your church doesn't want to treat them equally, that's their views. But, they also shared the views of slavery, so I wouldn't put too much stock into what they teach. Yeah, yeah, I know.

[SuperJerk 0]

We are not equivalent to animals, anyway.

Except that we're nearly biologically identical and all.

[Jingus 0]

Jingus, you have to recognize, all that other stuff aside, that negroes have NEVER been a part of Western society at large. You can't expect our society just to up and suddenly say "OK, you darkies can be free now," despite what a grand PC idea that might be.

Seriously, that's kind of what you sound like here.

 

I (and millions of others) have a right to say "That goes against my religious views."

Sure, you have the right to say it. You don't have the legal right to do jack shit about it. It's against your religion? Tough titty. Separation of church and state. And marriage laws belong to the state, not the church.

 

Deism isn't "sort of Christian" at all.

It's debatable. The common beliefs of deism still specifically refer to the creator of the universe as "God", and they didn't publicly reject scripture as being worthless. Of course, deists were kinda like Unitarians in that there was no established dogma so no two of them ever quite believed the exact same thing. Some leaned much more Christian than others. Franklin and Jefferson both attended church regularly and kept up the appearance of being ordinary God-fearing folk. But still, all that's incidental. My main point was that several of the key men who created this country were nowhere near the traditional ideaology of the Christian faith, despite what various people today would have you believe.

[Golgo 13 0]

Plenty of Christians and other so-called religious folk do a fine enough job destroying the sanctity of marriage on their own, so I've never seen what allowing some homos to marry would do to destroy their world. Some gays marrying doesn't have anything to do with anyone's relationship with God, so what should they care? It doesn't have any personal effect unless them there fags are married by your church down the street or actual tolerance and acceptance by the Church suddenly sparks your son, daughter, brother, mother, or friend, etc., to out themselves. God forbid. As stated numerous times, too, cultures change, and there's plenty of stuff once tolerated or advocated by our Judeo-Christian fathers and ancestors that's now viewed at as abhorrent.

 

Still, saying it's as the animals do doesn't have any real effect on those who don't believe we descended from more primitive forms or are subject to baser instincts. I'm not saying all Christians, etc., do, more those that have real power to dictate this.

 

But why ARE we the ones voting on it anyway? I know I'm just an idiot, but maybe the state should pull out of this debate and leave it to individual churches to decide who they want to marry. I know, government issued marriage laws and licenses and all, so that's their stake, but those have always been bull. But then again, maybe we wouldn't actually be getting anywhere on this without their involvement. So couldn't it be marriage by court, always fine, since it's not technically a Christian marriage and wouldn't ruffle feathers, and marriage by a church, okay, if they're fine with it.

[SuperJerk 0]

 

Everybody feel free to sing along.

[Toshiaki Koala 0]

I've never really understood why animals doing something means it's okay for people to do it too. If someone person was discovered to be a cannibal who ate their kids, do you really think anyone is gonna argue "No, it's okay, some animals do that!"

 

Who has said this? This "news" just further invalidates the argument that homosexuality is unnatural. The Bible is and will always be quite clear that sodomy is morally wrong—and that working on Sunday (or is it Saturday? Let's make it both to be safe) is punishable by death, a rape victim must be forced to marry her rapist, and pi is exactly three.

 

[At Home 0]

Chinstrap penguins?

[At Home 0]

I have no problem with gay couples getting the same rights as married ones...I am opposed to gay marriage on the grounds that, like it or not, this country was founded on Judeo-Christian principles, and gay marriage is not a part of that tradition.

 

"As the government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen [Muslims] ... it is declared ... that no pretext arising from religious opinion shall ever product an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries....

"The United States is not a Christian nation any more than it is a Jewish or a Mohammedan nation."

-- Treaty of Tripoli (1797), carried unanimously by the Senate and signed into law by John Adams

 

 

This is the guy who saved our country early on, you know. And that treaty has the power of law.

[Guest Desensitized]

I paused a Miles Davis album to click on Y2Jerk's video. Good choice by both of us. That said, I don't care for "well, animals do it" as a reason why it should be tolerated, because animals do lots of things that wouldn't constitute acceptable human behavior. I don't know. There should be better ways to say "stop hating gay people."

[Guest Smues]

The 'animals do it!' thing is so incredibly stupid. I got in an arguement with someone once about drinking milk. Yeah, milk. I mentioned how much I love milk, and she said it was gross, and used the arguement that no other animal drinks milk past the nursing stage. As if that somehow means I shouldn't drink milk, because other animals don't. Other animals also don't talk, drive, or shit in a toilet, that doesn't mean I should stop doing those things. Regardless of my feelings on gay marriage, saying that 'some animals are gay' has NO relevance.

 

Actually on topic, I've never had a problem with gay marriage. Why shouldn't gay people be miserable like the rest of us? The only thing I fear about it being legal is the day when some girl (or guy) tells me about how great married life is or some such, and I ask for her husband (or his wifes) name and get yelled at about 'HOW DARE YOU JUST ASSUME I'M IN A HETEROSEXUAL MARRIAGE. I'M GAY AND PROUD OF IT YOU HOMOPHOBE. I'M CALLING GLAAD!'

 

Yeah, that'll never happen, but hey I'm allowed to hang onto my illogical fears. I have no problems with gay marriage, but I'll also think of marriage as being between a man and a women foremost.

[SamoaRowe 0]

I'm not interested in debating the results of a study that seemed obviously designed to promote the pro-gay agenda. We are not equivalent to animals, anyway.

 

I have no problem with gay couples getting the same rights as married ones...I am opposed to gay marriage on the grounds that, like it or not, this country was founded on Judeo-Christian principles, and gay marriage is not a part of that tradition. Our culture is based on the basic family unit being the building block of society, and a gay couple simply does not fit into that mold. This does not even bring into the equation the fact that gay couples cannot naturally reproduce to begin with. It doesn't mean I hate gays, etc...it just means I don't think we should recognize something that isn't equivalent to two people of the opposite sex forming a family.

 

I highly doubt this thread of yours is going "to end this once and for all", at any rate. I realize I am in the extreme minority on this, but I can live with that. Let's face it, this message board, like most, leans heavily left. It's no big secret.

 

The "pro-gay agenda?" Yeah, who do they think they are, wanting equal rights and everything. I know it sucks when science doesn't support your political views, but just because science proves you wrong doesn't mean it's not worth debating, don't you think?

 

I don't really care that you don't think gay marraige is a part of some religious traditions. I'd like to hear you say that to a gay couple's face and see if you don't feel just a little bit stupid saying something like that. You're going to deny someone else the same opportunities for happiness just because it doesn't fit into your mold of what a real family should be?

 

Same sex couples are normal people who are just as capable of raising a family as straight people. A person's sexuality does not determine what type of parent they would be.

 

Accepting gays doesn't make this board "left." And if it's a left attribute to be in favor of giving equal rights to these American citizens, then it means that the Right is openly oppressive and it's amazing to see that fly in this day and age.

[SamoaRowe 0]

The 'animals do it!' thing is so incredibly stupid. I got in an arguement with someone once about drinking milk. Yeah, milk. I mentioned how much I love milk, and she said it was gross, and used the arguement that no other animal drinks milk past the nursing stage. As if that somehow means I shouldn't drink milk, because other animals don't. Other animals also don't talk, drive, or shit in a toilet, that doesn't mean I should stop doing those things. Regardless of my feelings on gay marriage, saying that 'some animals are gay' has NO relevance.

 

Actually on topic, I've never had a problem with gay marriage. Why shouldn't gay people be miserable like the rest of us? The only thing I fear about it being legal is the day when some girl (or guy) tells me about how great married life is or some such, and I ask for her husband (or his wifes) name and get yelled at about 'HOW DARE YOU JUST ASSUME I'M IN A HETEROSEXUAL MARRIAGE. I'M GAY AND PROUD OF IT YOU HOMOPHOBE. I'M CALLING GLAAD!'

 

Yeah, that'll never happen, but hey I'm allowed to hang onto my illogical fears. I have no problems with gay marriage, but I'll also think of marriage as being between a man and a women foremost.

 

Way to miss the whole fucking point. The fact that homosexuality is found in animals supports a notion that people do not CHOOSE to be gay or not, it is a part of who they are. In other words, it's natural.

 

Do you really know people who throw a fit like the one you just described? It reeks of something that you made up. Maybe there are people like that who are overly defensive, but I know of far more people who would be on the verge of kicking the ass of anyone who hinted there was a drop of homosexuality in their personality.

 

And personally, I look at marraige as between two people who love each other and are committed to building a single life together and taking care of one another for the rest of their lives. And how that scares people who are not involved is something I'll never understand, I guess.

[Guest Smues]

I thought we were talking about gay marriage, not if people choose to be gay or not? I don't think most serial killers choose to have whatever mental defect they have that causes them to go insane and kill people because their neighbor's dog told them to do so, but that doesn't mean we'll just go make serial killings legal. And before you point out how that has nothing to do with anything, I'll save you the trouble and agree. I'm just pointing out that just because someone may be born with something doesn't by default mean anything. And again, I'm PRO GAY MARRIAGE. I just happen to think of marriage as a man and a woman because that's what it's been my whole life. That doesn't mean I'm again man/man or woman/woman marriages, it just means that when I think marriage I think of a man and a woman.

 

 

Do you really know people who throw a fit like the one you just described? It reeks of something that you made up.

 

Yeah, that'll never happen, but hey I'm allowed to hang onto my illogical fears.

 

Oh, and going back to the beginning.

 

... so I want to end it now. Come out all of you who somehow oppose gay marraige. Explain yourself. What's the big fucking deal! How do gays getting married impact your life? Why is it wrong?

 

And I don't want to hear any explanations that include "Because the Bible says so." Sorry, that doesn't fly when it comes to a legal institution such as marraige. And even if it does, why is there no crusade to end the serving of shell fish in restaurants?

 

So if you're against gay marraige, why? Explain yourself and try not to sound like too big of a jackass in the process. Don't say anything in this thread that you wouldn't say to a gay couple to their face. Let's end this once and for all.

 

A. I see nothing in this about people being born gay, all you say is "defend yourself if you oppose gay marraige."

B. You tell anti-gay marriage folk not to sound like a jackass, but you didn't seem to apply that rule to yourself.

C. End it now? Because some animals are gay we can end the whole debate? Like this is some ultimate evidence? Give me a break. It's one point for one arguement, it's not some definitive thing.