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On the basis of that, I think that he can change his ring style. Its not a matter of booking. Its for Jericho to make a conscious decision to toughen up in the ring. Hes given the booking of his match, but there are elements of that that he can change as to how the match will play out. He can mix up his arsenal. Thats my point. I cant see why they turned him. Yes they have, but in marketing terms you just take him off the shelf, repackage him and relaunch him.

Im sorry, I disagree. IMHO, if they wanted to give him the belt, the time to do so was when he was feuding with Joe and then he could have dropped it to Daniels. Also, Aries looks bad too. Its unexpected and ROH have to do something mega to justify it and I am sorry, tourneys have been done to death. They need something fresh. Ive got to give credit to ROH fanatics, they defend the product to a T. Hey, I marked out last night, but still see the cracks in it.

Your damn skippy. It does doesnt it! JJ go cry yourself a river and bury yourself somewhere, you piece of crap. I feel for AJ, it seems that JJ cant stand the poor fella, because all he can do is screw him. I thought JJ was going to be a man, and accept not being da man for a while. Thank you Dixie, for sticking up to him. First person so far in 3 years.

As a member of flock since its inception, I couldnt have said it better than myself Magus. I feel sorry for AJ. JJ has fucked him over again. I think Raven was made champ just to spite JJ. What a pussy. I was hoping that I would come in here saying what a man JJ was, in not being a bitch about AJ becoming the KotM. But nooooooooo, he has to pull himself out of the match. I dare anybody to try and defend him. You dont refuse to job in wrestling, thats just not 1 thing that you do. HBK lost my respect. JJ lost my respect. I wasnt a fan of JJ, I admit, but I respected him for what he was. I agree, he should have lost the title at Slam, in a 1 year anniversary KotM. He should have lost the title to Brown, but he should have given it to him ages ago. I wanted him to chase it too. Raven would have wanted that too. He was setting up. Going for it alone, guerilla style. Now just give the man the mike and let him cut a gut wrenching face promo saying something like, when you least expect something in life, it turns up. When you work your ass off, you just dont get it. Thats FN life.

Didnt Styles say that he somehow ruined any future that he had by 1 comment during the night? ^o)

Well I hope they do. It serves for a great rub if done correctly. No one should be such a mark for themselves that they retire with that kind of streak intact. It should be used for someone else to come along and end his streak and career at Mania. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I used to think so, too, but when you think about it, Taker has sweet F.A. to his name. Only 4 WWE titles in, what, nearly 15 years? He used to have Hell in a Cell until someone took that from him. He's only main-evented one Mania, and it wasn't even planned ... for the total legend that he is, he really hasn't got that much to his name. Whereas Triple H had endless accomplishments from the very beginning. I'm a big big fan of Randy Orton's but I would've been pissed off as hell if he'd beaten Taker. I just think if they've gone to 13 victories with him, that there's no point in ending it. It's even THAT BIG a deal, his streak. It's really only ever mentioned at WrestleMania time. All it does it water down his opponent, but WWE can easily make you think his opponent will win, like they did with Orton this year. I first noticed this when they did Tale of the Tape at (I think) No Mercy 2003. Brock had been in it not even two years and had all these titles, KOTR, Rumble victory, a Mania main event, and all Taker had was 4 titles and his Mania streak. I just think that for the total legend he is, the streak's the very least they can give him. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Its true and UT has been the loyalist service there is. But he has headed the Minstry too and constantly been associated with the ME. That why he has never gone after the IC title and thats what I think made his Hardcore title reign more credible, he went for it just to get back at Van Dam. Only the WWE title means anything to him and thats the way it should. He still has casket matches, buried alive matches, inferno matches, boiler room brawl matches....

Rule 213 of wrestling: Thou shall not let you champion walk out on your company with your belt around his waist. If ROH have broken this rule, they have really dropped the ball. In my eyes, their title just loses prestige because of this.

Was your first clue the HUGE BONG in his buddy's hand? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Actually, it was playing in the background, and all I heard was o my god, o my god. I posted that without seeing the loser. Second time round I saw that. The kid was high, bong or no bong.

Your technically right

That blasted whistle

Sorry, double post.

O yeah, sure. Hart got screwed and this punk gets to run off the belt. ROH may have dropped the ball here. IMHO if Punk was going to win the title he should have done so off Joe. I dont know how ROH can explain this, especially if this was Punks last show though. They will most probably say due to his work with ROH they are letting him keep it, which is lame but possibly the best way to go. Fans could wait for him with daggers to come back. Doesnt the E let wrestlers workd ROH shows? Pretty dumb if he cant come back. Nice to Daniels come back as face. ROH seem to be going through the doldrums a bit. Their shows havent been that stellar. They have been good, dont get me wrong, but not the standard that ROH puts out. Could it be because of Joe, Punk and Am Drag leaving or quasi leaving?

Another point of discussion: if you could pick any wrestler, still alive today or not, but if they are alive they are inactive, who you would pay a substantial sum of money (say 4 times the cost of an average WM ticket since 90% of this board are Americans ) to see wrestle one last time.

Another thing I was thinking about was the effect stables have on the members. Which stable has helped wrestlers careers to skyrocket the most and which has jinxed the careers of those involved.

Didnt he hold 5 times in WCW? Your missing the point guys, dont restrict yourselfs to WWE. So far we have 1, RVD.

Hadnt Austin and UT feuded since WM? So Benoit (IC Champ) vs Austin (WWF Champ) at Invansion if Benoit didnt get injured? And that meant Kane vs Benoit for the IC Strap at KotR? Wouldnt have been a bad card that way either. Regarding Jericho, youve just reinforced my point on him in the WWE folder HTQ

Hope I am not going to get flamed for this or in trouble, cause maybe I should have informed a mod before I did this but well, I will learn for next time. Ive been following the essential DVD thread and think that it has moved off topic with respect to Jericho. I was thinking of starting up a thread on Jericho's character yesterday, so Ive take bits of that thread and the rest is viewable here: http://forums.thesmartmarks.com/index.php?...0entry1910430 To make my point I am going to talk a bit about the wrestlers who are similar in terms of physique to Jericho and some of those with whom he has had major programmes with. Hes over because I personally perceive him as being a reasonable wrestler in the sense that he is plausable and is somebody that I could relate to. Hes not some over grown comic book manster on roids. Eddie and Benoit fall in the same boat. People can relate to them and say, Im his height, could be his build, he doesnt do way over the top things in the ring, hes an underdog. A word on Benoit before I go. His career was shafted as soon as he stepped foot on WWE property. He was the unofficial WCW Champion. The E should have made a huge deal about this, and had him wrestle a prolonged story line with the WWE Champion at the time (out of curiousity, was it HHH?. If yes, then that explains why not). I think the E have been very good to Eddie. Hes never got this much time and gold, and they have always has his back. I think Eddie is a pleasure to work with and really loves what he does, hence him always being near the top of the card and having good feuds. But I digress. He was never given a chance to draw. Even as the champion they had other things going on that was more focused on than him. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Jericho in the E has always been made to look like somebodys bitch. People say The Rock put Jericho over. Yes, he did, kind of. But he did so the second time. IIRC, he squashed Jericho when he 1st came to the company. Also, Jericho was made to look like HHH's bitch and a slut gf of Steph. Backstage politics cutting him off at the knees, being made to look like a coward, never being put over, walking stephs dog or buying her cream or whatever he used to do, I mean come on. The only thing HHH ever did for him and remarkably so, was letting him take credit for injuring him. At WM 18, one of the poorest of all time IMHO, the main attraction was Hogan-Rock and not Jericho-HHH. The latter was a foregone conclusion of a squash. Benoit and Eddie have also been the victims of being used as doormats, but Eddie to a much lesser extent. HHH has remarkbly be good to Benoit on the whole. Apart from what I said before about Benoit, Austin should have done the job for him when he came back, and not them having to concut him blaming and turning on Flair. Austin should have done the job to Eddie too. Hopefully, UT and JBL will make Benoit look credible on SD now. On a side note I think were going to get JBL, OJ & Orton vs Benoit, Hardcore & UT which isnt that bad and Eddie & Freinds vs Rey & Friends what with with Super Crazy, Psicosis, Juvi, Chavo, RVD and London being possibly involved. Makes sense IMHO for Batista as Champ to now go to SD. For Smackdown, at least until he got drafted, Cena drew. Batista drew on Raw for a while, but then got the customary treatment, and that has probably stopped now. Make no mistake about it, Austin and Rock were the primary draws. So, you just want to sit there and take it, without voicing your displeasure? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I agree, no 1 single person draws any more. Austin and Rock were the last people to do that. Jerichos career was botched prior to the Undisputed Reign. Nobody saw him as being credible for the WCW Championship, let alone the Undisputed Title. In fact, the angle they ran was Jericho would never win the big one. But at WMX19 Jericho was ressurecting his career, and HBK nipped it again. HBK ruined Jerichos career for 3 years just as he did Harts for good. The only reason HBK let Benoit and Angle go over was because the company has more faith in them and it resulted in prolonged angles for him and the chance to go over later. HBK is bulletproof. It would have done nothing to him to let Jericho get the big WM win and then get his win or 2 back within 6 months down the line. He could have given Jericho a boost, instead of Jericho looking lost for most of that of year. Regarding Cena and Batista HTQ, I hope your joking. I hope your not serious. Like Jericholic82, I am a disgruntled Jericholic. And the point of this thread is this. Given his past in the WWE, why must the E always portray Jericho as a whiney heel for him to take a smell of a title shot. Why cant we have the fan loving over the top promo guy that the people love. Its only in this character that Jericho is really alive IMHO and credible. Jericho wont win at Vengence and I know that. Its too soon. But Jericho should have stayed face. Batista goes to SD as WHC and HHH gets the WWE Championship from Cena or whoever (come on guys, we all know that HHH just wanted a different belt over his shoulder and its only a matter of time). Then HHH should have done the right thing and done what he should have done ages ago and put Jericho over in the right way. Jericho, the whiney heel as Champion. No thanks. And if I were you Jericho, I wouldnt accept such a deal either, cause youve got 3 years of nothing after it. He just wont be handle in the right way as so. Whiney heels never are unless their name is HHH or they are huge or 1 of Vinces creations. To give credit were credit is do, Eddie is being portrayed in the right way IMHO, as a sadistic heel. Jericho is the whiney lame ass heel who at the end of the day means chump.

I dont get it. :S <{POST_SNAPBACK}> When Dreamer and Heyman were recruiting for the ECW PPV, they called Sabu, who proceeded to speak in the third person and demand more money than anyone else. Unbeknownst to him, Vince was in the room and said that totally awesome line to Dreamer. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Thats just so phenomenal. I can imagine Vince saying that in his gravely voice. How much did Sabu do it for anyway? Bit ridiculous getting more than Sandman, since Sandman had more TV time and shows to do. And I thought Sabu doesnt talk :S Not really, about standard for anyone working the independents. How he got such a reputation is a mystery. Oh yeah, big time. But compared to other vets like Shawn Michaels and Ric Flair he's not THAT much worse off than anyone else. I hope this leads to a contract for him, cuz nobody deserves it more. Plus, with the WWE's current toned-down, less risky inring style it could be a well-deserved break for his battered self. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Ive always known him to have a reputation. Mainly in TNA, like Jeff is getting. I see. I think they will be bringing him in to partner RVD. RVD didnt want to go to Iraq and spouted off on ONS, so I think hes stuck in the tag div for a while. The upside is RVD will have to talk for 2 then. RVD should have been Champ at No Mercy vs Angle and Austin, the Xmas after that, then Unforgiven vs HHH, vs HBK when he was WHC and should have had a shot at JBL. Would have loved to see him vs JBL at WMXX1 or even better, SummerSlam, winning the title at his 1st attempt. He could have then shot a promo on Eddie, UT, Booker, Angle, TBS and Cena saying why hasnt he got a shot before since hes done what the WWE and WCE guys couldnt do. I always thought that RVD would have been paired with Dreamer in the WWE so what do I know. Would have loved to see that Extreme Team. I really think RVD should go to TNA. Hed have good matches with Styles, Daniels, Raven, Killings, Brown, Abyss and Jeff. Matt too if hed join. It would great for RVD to tell Vince: RVD finally tells Vince to stick it.

Excuse my ignorance, but why does he do that please? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> He's pointing to the Sheik, nowadays, I believe. He died in '03. I don't know what it was about originally though. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I thought he was just pointing to them cause that's where he came from when he hit the ring. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> BBB I was thinking that too. Maybe at 1st yes. Then as Coffey says but Ravenbomb makes a bit of sense. Tks guys.

I thought that watching One Night Stand. You thought Cena/JBL was a contrast? Sandman/JBL is a REAL contrast. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I think it will, especially since Sandman has a connection with the fans that JBL doesnt get and never will at this rate. Boy hasnt he put on weight though. I agree. I can see JBL bringing in Awesome as his Secretary of War, Tanaka as his Foreign Secretary and Venis as his new CoS. That cabinet would rock baby. Boo ya!

Hey, Snow/Bossman was a DOG KENNEL FROM HELL match. There's a difference, you know. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> well that tag hiac wasnt really a match as they just brawled and austin adn kane fought on top of the cell. but it is never mentoned, as well as a septemberish 98 HIAC on raw between mankind and kane. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> They still used the Cell. And were supposed to be matches. My point is that the 6 way is not the least known out of the Cell matches and HHH wasnt pinned so hes right. Take a Triple Threat match. You can lose the title and the match without being pinned.

Was just wondering guys, out of the current crop of wrestlers, who, in your opinion has never been the big champion of a brand or company but should be? Do you think that this wrestler will ever make it? Why does he deserve it? Why will he make it/wont make it? DISCUSS.

Ooooooo, yes please. Between the Winged Eagle and Big Goldy, its the latter. It looks like a Big Ass title, made out of gold, but I dont like the side plates at all. My favourite belt of the WWE/WCW has to be the WWE title version 2, my all time fav is the NWA title with the countries flags. Now thats a world title.

As if the UT would ever do that. I mean come on. I agree that he is the most loyal servant in the WWE, but he never jobs. I was like NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, YOU IDIOTSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS. How could they let that punk ass white trash 50 cent wanabee win. JBL should have reigned till Eddie at SummerSlam. I like the idea MM.

That makes no sense what-so-ever. More the other way round.