Slickster

Special thanks to RRR for inventing the 'debunk-point-by-point-in-bold' system. Owen Hart plummetted to his death in front of a live audience. Don't you understand this? Your points make absolutely no sense given what we're arguing. Should WWE never mention any wrestling tragedy since it's escapist? Should they not have acknowledged Stu Hart's death? Don't talk down to me, bob. You're only showing the futility of your argument. OWEN HART DIED YOU FUCKING MORON. An actor messing up his lines and Owen Hart plummetting his death is probably the dumbest comparison I've ever read. If an actor was supposed to be lowered on stage and plumetted to his death- I think they would stop the show. I'll admit that wasn't the best analogy, but then again it's tough to find an analogy to this situation due to the unique characteristics of pro wrestling. Also, me writing something like this at 4am was clearly not the best strategy. However, to paint me as some callous person just because I recognize the importance of kayfabe and you don't is another terrible tactic for you to use. Your quotes from circus sites don't enhance your point in the slightest. Owen Hart died in a horrific death and they should've stopped the show. Vince could've offered refunds to everyone, the company wouldn't have gone bankrupt and he wouldn't have looked like a huge asshole. I quote from circus literature because, like wrestling, circus performers are trained to continue the show regardless of what happens (barring fires, etc.). There's something called 'kayfabe,' I'm sure you've heard of it. Have you not noticed that in the vast majority of cases when a wrestler gets injured, the match is not immediately stopped, but rather they jump to the finish? Like it or not, they are trying to maintain at least a modicum of kayfabe. We smarks can debate this issue because we know it's fake and can therefore be concerned about the welfare of the wrestlers. However, the marks went to that show to cheer for Stone Cold and boo the Undertaker, not to be concerned about Mark Callaway and Steve Williams. It's different in sports because Sammy Sosa on the field is Sammy Sosa off the field too. To stop a match for injury is to say "Oh, these guys were beating the shit out of each before, but now he's REALLY hurt" is a slap in the face to kayfabe itself and one of the reasons why much of Russo's booking was unsuccessful. Again- a wrestler getting hurt in the match and going to the finish is different from a man falling to his death. And they have stopped matches after people got hurt. Yeah, like when Steve Austin injured his neck. Or when Kurt Angle got concussed. Or when Eugene injured his knee. Or when Lita injured her knee. Or when Brock got concussed. Or when Buff Bagwell broke his neck. Or when Paul Orndorff got a stinger. Or when Chuck Austin broke his neck. Or when Sabu broke his jaw. Or when Vince broke his pelvis. Yup, they just stopped everything and didn't try to maintain the illusion. The wrestlers just laid there and didn't try to continue the match, either, apparently. The only two exceptions I can think of were Villano IV and Droz (but in both cases the injury was so obvious and debilatating that it was clear they couldn't continue.) bob, like it or not it's ALWAYS been policy in this business to continue the show regardless of what happens. It's an extension of kayfabe, which this whole business is built on. Many of the wrestlers themselves wanted to continue, so they did. I don't think that continuing the show was disrespectful; what could it have accomplished? Having 16,000 people create a traffic jam for the ambulance? Forcing the wrestlers to deal with the situation immediately instead of letting them wrestle to take their minds [and the fans' minds] off of what they just witnessed would not have been the best strategy, in my opinion. And this one's for you, HTQ: Fuck you. I respected you.

Good to see London get that CW title in his home state. Now, you think they might add London/Kidman to the WM card? They were the last 2 in and they could remind fans of their old October feud.

Yeah, but it was a MUCH smaller arena (Florence, SC Civic Center held about 7500 compared to the 16000 at Over the Edge) and they held the second part of the show 200 miles up the road in Charleston. I don't believe the Florence fans got refunds because the show went on, albeit not on PPV. That one worked out to Vince's advantage because the larger North Charleston Coliseum paid attendance covered the cost of doing another PPV telecast. However, had Vince chosen to do so he could have possibly held an 'Over the Edge Part 2' on Tuesday 5/25/99 in Moline, IL (where they taped the 5/30 RAW). However, as many have pointed out this was indeed a split-second decision and I'm sure the financial concerns weren't exactly first on Vince's list of priorities. And I find it funny that everyone is upset that 'the show must go on' rings true in wrestling; not everyone is a smark and to see a show like this get cut off because of real life events defeats the purpose (escapist entertainment). If an actor botches a line or misses a cue, the play continues and actors ad-lib. Would you rather see the house lights come on and the director call for an intermission? Even Harley Race feels this way. Source: Kansas City Star, 5/23/99

According to 'Sex, Lies, and Headlocks," the Vince McMahon segment had just been taped as the Owen incident occurred, leading them to try and get the ambulance back to the arena ASAP. As we saw Vince getting loaded into the ambulance on the PPV telecast, in real life Owen was fading away inside the same ambulance.

1. Post0-concussion syndrome, can't wrestle. 2. JBL turned last April, has a lot of heat, but isn't exactly a draw. 3. See 2002 list. 4. Lesnar isn't with WWE. 5. Randy just turned heel and is a passable wrestler. 6. Batista is a face and is a GREAT power wrestler. 7. Both in OVW, IIRC. 8. Praying to God. 9. Same old.

In his books, Mick Foley has compared wrestling to a circus. Have you ever heard the old circus maxim phrase "the show must go on?" http://www.goodmagic.com/carny/ Source Many people have died during circus performances over the decades; however, it is the policy of the business to never stop the show or let on there's a problem. After all, both the WWE and the circus are escapist entertainment intended to amuse and help the viewer forget about the troubles of the real world. How many times have we seen wrestlers get seriously injured, only to jump to the finish? This keeps the suspension of disbelief in the eyes of the fans. If you stopped the match immediately after every injury, it would take away that suspension of disbelief.

If I remember things correctly, the main event was about to start. That would be a weird time to cancel the show, given that they didn't simply stop it right away. No. Immediately afterwards was the Jarrett/Debra Vs Venis/Bass match which was the 4th match into a 7 match card. Owen Vs Godfather was due to be match #3. No, they announced Owen's accident before the Val/Bass vs. Debra/JJ tag match, but they announced his death later in the broadcast.

So you wouldn't tell them Owen had died and just stop the show? Also, HTQ, if you could answer this I'd appreciate it. From a WON Hotline 5/25/99 report: "-The finish of the UT-Austin match was apparently changed. Something contraversial [sic] was supposed to happen, but didn't due to the Owen Hart situation." Any idea on what was supposed to end Over the Edge?

Someone explained the situation best on 5/24/99: "the case of the MLB umpire that died on the field the MLB, the Reds and the other team could afford to stop the game as it could be replayed as a double header later in the season, which they did. In the case of the PPV there are contracts that are signed that are basically pay for play. The WWF, if they had canceled the show would have had to refund a lot of money for the people there and for the people watching at home. The decision to continue the PPV might have been the wrong one by Vince in the minds of many of you but it was a decision made very quickly, in about as long as Ross was talking and the different parts were weighed as best as possible at the time I am sure. Also, I am sure that Vince will be second guessing his choice to himself for a long time..."

Well, it had been at least 30-45min after the fall that they announced he was dead, IIRC, so the show had gotten back on track and people were starting to cheer and get into the show again. To cancel it so late after the accident would have pissed people off even more than if they had canceled it right after it happened. And what would be the point of canceling it at that point? So the guys who had already dealt with their grief and were now focusing on putting on a good match could get mired in sadness again? So the fans who had put it out of their minds could think about it all the way home? It would have been a symbolic gesture that would only have pissed more people off, wrestlers included. Well, it set up that match. They were trying to continue the show as if nothing had happened. Remember, if someone had, say, stepped out for a minute during the Blazer promo and come back 2min later, they would have seen the show go on as planned and wouldn't know about the incident. They are an entertainment company first and foremost; when something goes wrong in a circus act, the other performers will try to distract the audience from the situation. Like the WWE, it's intended to be fun escapist programming and to shut down as soon as something goes wrong would ruin that concept completely. EDIT: "Viewers were told of Hart's death with about 55 minutes remaining in the show, although an announcement of his condition was never made to fans in Kemper Arena." (Rocky Mountain News, May 26, 1999)

I'd have to agree with you, Lushus, especially since Vince was a face at the time. Of course, he probably was busy trying to do damage control in the back.

In what way were their actions 'crass'? And bob, I think you give wrestling fans too much credit. I've heard reports of marks who didn't believe it (even after the 5/24/99 RAW) and expected him to return as a top heel in the Corporate Ministry.

That match was at St. Valentine's Day Massacre in February. At Over the Edge neither man bled (and Owen's blood did indeed stain the canvas).

Well, yeah, but baseball doesn't work angles. (Even national media like CNN didn't pick up on this story immediately because they thought it might be a work.) And I really don't think the decision to continue the show really hurt Vince in the long run. He brushed off the criticism and still pretends the show never happened (save for the segment on the Benoit DVD).

My condolences to the Senerca family. Without him, a big part of ECW wouldn't have ever existed.

I think it was a 'damned if you do,...' situation. You've either got 16,000 angry people demanding refunds, the loss of an estimated $4 million, and unfinished storylines that would screw up the booking. On the other hand, you've got mucho criticism from all forms of media decrying your decision to continue the show and try to give the fans what they paid to see. Vince just couldn't win either way.

From a WON Hotline 5/25/99 report: "-The finish of the UT-Austin match was apparently changed. Something contraversial [sic] was supposed to happen, but didn't due to the Owen Hart situation." Any idea on what was supposed to end Over the Edge?

Yeah, and even Val Venis got flustered, inadvertently saying that they were in Kansas City, KS during his prematch promo. It was pretty clear watching the PPV which segments/interviews had been pre-taped because so many people were emotional after the incident. But yeah, I'd say that the #1 reason they didn't stop the show was because of strictly financial considerations: they were on tour and after the 5/24 live RAW in St. Louis they taped the 5/30 RAW in Moline on 5/25. There's no way they could have stopped the tour and redone the PPV in Kansas City without losing hundreds of thousands of dollars by refunding the tickets for those RAW tapings. Granted, they did cancel the weekend house shows, but it's easier to cancel those than to lose a RAW taping day. Plus, it was less of a loss because it was going to be a Canadian tour (the exchange rate was more favorable then). Also, cutting the PPV short would have killed KC as a viable tour stop for years to come.

How much does it cost to book the NWA champ, anyway?

*looks at HTQ's sig* Off-topic, but HTQ, are you yourself a wrestler?

"Also, to give this match any long-term build would mean: -paying Hogan to go on the road -dealing with Egomania running wild -making younger talent job to Hogan YET AGAIN -somehow making Hassan look like a threat when he's been HTM 2005 since he debuted -and convincing Hogan to be the semi-main on a B-level PPV in New Hampshire (an unproven market for hosting PPVs)." Hogan marks still exist, but their interest is pretty short-lived (see Hogan's last 2 tenures in WWE).

Like I said, HTQ, Hogan-Hassan is probably the best way to get on-the-fence fans to order the show at the last minute. Hype this match (made the night before during the HOF ceremony) and it will make a difference. Hogan marks still exist, but their interest is pretty short-lived (see Hogan's last 2 tenures in WWE). Also, to give this match any long-term build would mean: -paying Hogan to go on the road -dealing with Egomania running wild -making younger talent job to Hogan YET AGAIN -somehow making Hassan look like a threat when he's been HTM 2005 since he debuted -and convincing Hogan to be the semi-main on a B-level PPV in New Hampshire (an unproven market for hosting PPVs). I'm sure Hogan would want the money to do all this, but I think that a long build would become tiring quickly concerning the weaknesses of the parties involved. I think this could be best served as a quick angle and a quick win for Hogan. Boom, instant 'WrestleMania Moment.'

BEST.

Fook, I don't know why you couldn't do your scenario, just make it a short impromptu match. I'm not sure Hogan would go along with this if he couldn't get another WM win.