KTID 0 Report post Posted August 20, 2003 Well, lets get to it then. I have to say Dynamite Kid, the man who popularized Junior Heavyweight wrestling. Without him, there'd be no Chris Benoit. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
godthedog 0 Report post Posted August 21, 2003 if ever there was a poll that needed the presence of la parka, this is it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Ray Report post Posted August 21, 2003 Shawn Michaels has no business being on that list, especially when the superior STEVE AUSTIN isn't. Now, I haven't seen every wrestler (Kawada, Kobashi, etc....) so I can't rate them highly. From the matches I have seen, Chris Benoit is the best consistantly. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest The Old Me Report post Posted August 21, 2003 On that list, for wrestling alone I'd have to go with Benoit. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest two_tuff_toddy Report post Posted August 21, 2003 I have to say it's Flair without a doubt. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lord of The Curry 0 Report post Posted August 21, 2003 Benoit is the only North American with a shot at being on the list. It's basically him, Jumbo, Misawa, Kawada and Kobashi that have a shot at winning it, based on overall criteria. Somebody should dig up a Gordy List on some of these dudes. Me? I gots to go with Benoit. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest oxymoron Report post Posted August 21, 2003 (edited) Out of that list, I'll rank them like this 1. Jumbo Tsuruta 2. Toshiaki Kawada 3. Jushin Liger 4. Mitsuharu Misawa 5. Chris Benoit 6. Ric Flair 7. Dynamite Kid 8. Bret Hart 9. Tiger Mask 10. Shawn Micheals Edited August 21, 2003 by oxymoron Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The Ghost of bps21 0 Report post Posted August 21, 2003 How is HBK even on this list? Let alone have two votes... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Adam 0 Report post Posted August 21, 2003 Benoit, no doubt. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Betty Houle 0 Report post Posted August 21, 2003 You seem to be missing some anmes on your definitive poll. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest BAR Report post Posted August 21, 2003 1. The Dynamite Kid 2. Toshiaki Kawada 3. Jushin 'Thunder' Lyger 4. Ric Flair 5. Kenta Kobashi Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Agent of Oblivion Report post Posted August 21, 2003 Flair, Kawada, and Lyger are always right there neck in neck for my top position. At the moment, Lyger is tickling my fancy, so I voted for him. Jumbo is rapidly moving upwards the more I see him. And why in the fuck is Hokuto not on that poll? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coffin Surfer 0 Report post Posted August 21, 2003 HBK has more of a right to be on the list than fucking Tiger Mask. And I will never understand why Dynamite Kid get's so much praise as being the greatest, when his best work can't touch the best work of guys like Eddy, Benoit, Lyger, or even Ohtani during his 96 run. Sure he influenced alot of the juniors, but that doesn't make him better than them. Tenyru influenced Kawada, but I don't see anybody saying he was better because of it. Sure you can make an argument about Dynamite Kid not being surrounded by the same talent as the 90's guys or if he could wrestle in the 90s he would be just as good...etc. But I would rather judge him on the work he actually did, which doesn't hold up. The style advanced and went on to produce better matches after his time. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest wildpegasus Report post Posted August 24, 2003 (edited) I just wish I had more money to watch more tapes to answer this "accurately" but from what I've seen: *going to "wimp out" and say no particular order* Hokuto Benoit-For being able to wrestle lucha with Villano III, brawling with Sullivan/Meng and adapting so well to Stampede, New Japan, WCW and the WWE. One of the most intense wrestlers ever who's had great success against cruisers and heavies. Dynamite-Don't see anyone being able to do what he did in Stampede while at the same time trendsetting Kawada-The more I watch of him, the more I appreciate his ability. Lyger-Too good for too long a period of time. Charasmatic and a great seller despite wearing a mask. I loved his work against Sasuke at the J-Cup and the Sano feud which had me marking out big time for the learning of moves in subsequent matches. Kobashi-the epitome of fighting spirit he has the ability to draw people into his matches. Great charisma, a great bumper and a track record of quality matches for over a decade. Aja Kong-Seems to be able to control a match very well. She's been having great matches from Toyota to Satomura for a long time now. Toyota-No, she's not the best seller ever but she makes up for it with her tremendous work ethic in the ring. She has a great moveset as well. Bret Hart-Bret's always struck me as very smart in the ring who lives up to his nickname, "the excellence of execution" which is important because Bret's wrestling moves always look good. There's no going "Oh, that looks so fake" when Bret's wrestling. He's also one of the best ever sellers in wrestling. Steamboat-For concistency. Every single time he was out there he had a good match. His worse match ever is probably better than anyone else out there. The master of the arm drag was a great seller, had tremendous endurance and of course is famous for his matches against Flair and Savage. Edited August 24, 2003 by wildpegasus Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanadianChick 0 Report post Posted August 24, 2003 From my limited exposure (ie North American) and the wrestlers on that list... I'll say Benoit. I don't think I'll vote though, because I haven't seen the best work of a lot of people on that list. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest BionicRedneck Report post Posted August 24, 2003 "The definitive poll"? A poll that doesn't include Hokuto, Hansen etc. but does include Shawn Michaels. Anyway, I voted for Tosh. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Rob Edwards Report post Posted August 24, 2003 Hokuto wins it for me but I'll go for Jumbo as she's not there and how is Shawn Michaels better than Tiger Mask CS? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Elbarto997 0 Report post Posted August 24, 2003 Bret Hart hands down. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KTID 0 Report post Posted August 24, 2003 I agree completely that Shawn Michaels doesn't deserve to be on a list of the 10 greatest wrestlers ever. But for that matter, neither does Bret Hart or Ric Flair. I just wanted to include the best US wrestlers as well as the best Japanese wrestlers, so that even those who don't know who any of the Japanese guys are can still vote on the best of who they've seen. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Toshiaki Koala 0 Report post Posted August 24, 2003 I agree completely that Shawn Michaels doesn't deserve to be on a list of the 10 greatest wrestlers ever. But for that matter, neither does Bret Hart or Ric Flair. I just wanted to include the best US wrestlers as well as the best Japanese wrestlers, so that even those who don't know who any of the Japanese guys are can still vote on the best of who they've seen. Would you care to explain this? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Ray Report post Posted August 25, 2003 I agree completely that Shawn Michaels doesn't deserve to be on a list of the 10 greatest wrestlers ever. But for that matter, neither does Bret Hart or Ric Flair. I just wanted to include the best US wrestlers as well as the best Japanese wrestlers, so that even those who don't know who any of the Japanese guys are can still vote on the best of who they've seen. Would you care to explain this? Well, if one adds the top Japanese talent there's not much room for Bret or Flair... Tsuruta Misawa Kawada Kobashi Hansen Liger And the rest.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coffin Surfer 0 Report post Posted August 25, 2003 and how is Shawn Michaels better than Tiger Mask CS? Tiger Mask's best matches are said to be against Dynamite Kid from 81 to 83. That basically means that his most acclaimed matches were all against the same guy, who was proven in Stampede as an excellent carrier, not to mention that his job in those matches was to get the new star (Tiger Mask) over and make him look good at all costs. TM had great chemistry with the Kid (thanks in large part to wrestling him numerous times before going Mask), but in the end, DK was the one pacing, anchoring, and controling the match(if you doubt that watch the transition sequences when both men are down). Now HBK's best matches on the otherhand were against a variety of opponents, and he was usually calling the shots in most of those matches. So HBK is proven as somebody who can put together a decent match with different opponents, while TM was never prove as somebody he could string together good matches with alot of different people. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest wildpegasus Report post Posted August 26, 2003 Quote "That basically means that most of his acclaimed matches were against the same guy,..." To be fair, it should be noted that Tiger Mask had acclaimed matches against Koyabashi. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coffin Surfer 0 Report post Posted August 26, 2003 Quote "That basically means that most of his acclaimed matches were against the same guy,..." To be fair, it should be noted that Tiger Mask had acclaimed matches against Koyabashi. I think their better than the 85 matches against Tiger Mask II, but their not as good as the best of the DK series. Also note that I used the word "most". Before somebody further misinterupts, this there's nothing wrong with having your best matches against the same guy, but if it's obvious the other guy is the mastermind behind the matches. This is like putting Gary Albright as an all time great because of his matches with Takada and Kawada. Sure he did his part, but the other two guys where the ones putting the matches together, and were specifically doing their best to put over the new guy and make him look good. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Austin3164life 0 Report post Posted August 27, 2003 Worst poll ever. Where is Rikidozan, Lou Thesz, or Steve Austin? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Adam 0 Report post Posted August 27, 2003 I take it we are talking about wrestling as opposed to entertaining. Thats why these guys are on the list. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Rob Edwards Report post Posted August 29, 2003 Tiger Mask had matches on a par with most of the DK and Kobayashi series with Black Tiger, Gran Hamada and El Canek off the top off my head, I've seen plenty of Sayama's matches and I've not once thought one was anything less than good and as much as I love Misawa I can't watch his TM2 gimmick without pining for Sayama Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coffin Surfer 0 Report post Posted August 30, 2003 Tiger Mask had matches on a par with most of the DK and Kobayashi series with Black Tiger, Gran Hamada and El Canek off the top off my head, I've seen plenty of Sayama's matches and I've not once thought one was anything less than good and as much as I love Misawa I can't watch his TM2 gimmick without pining for Sayama 8/5/82 DK/TM is really the only Tiger Mask match that I would say would be an essential that can stand the test of time. From what I've seen it's probably one of the best built and structured junior matches from that era, not to mention it's so damn fast, while still doing a great job of touching upon their previous matches and furthering their story, giving alot of their lighting quick counters meanings rather than just pointless flash. A few other DK matches(most notably "2/3 falls"), and some of the Kobayashi matches hold up well, due to their story telling over flash approach, but I wouldn't put them on the same level as alot of the better junior matches of the 90s. I would be the first to admit that my viewing of 80s junior work is rather lacking, and as I see more maybe my opinion on TM will change(either for the better or the worse). Though I haven't seen much of him, I've heard the Cobra was very underrated and was actually better than Sayama. I have seen some of his stuff, and I am very impressed by him, most notably his work with DK in Stampede and his very good match against the British Bulldog 2/7/84. He wasn't much of a seller, but than again neither was Tiger Mask. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Rob Edwards Report post Posted August 30, 2003 Yeah Cobra was indeed great, I wouldn't say he was better than Sayama though I'll agree he's kind of a tough one to rate because his stuff was so different at the time (considering people still think Space Flying Tiger Drops are amazing now) personally I'd call the entire Sayama/DK series essential, if only to see the evolution of Junior wrestling, but yeah get some TM comps from 81-83 and you'd have a change of opinion if you were me! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cmclennan 0 Report post Posted September 6, 2003 In order of worst to best, just to mix things up... Jumbo Tsuruta(Never seen his stuff) Tiger Mask (Satoru Sayama)(Never seen his stuff, either) The Dynamite Kid(Never really understood why people like him... But then, I've only seen 2 matches... Neither of which I finished, because they were boring... Ric Flair(Well, basically he sucked. He was never that good a wrestler. Well, maybe for the 70's, but... Nobody talks about the "Great matches of the 70's". Shawn Michaels(He was okayish. His athleticism got him over, even though he played politics, which makes him teh suq.) Bret Hart(Here's the deal: Bret Hart rocked. Throughout his career. He's Canadian, which makes him gold in my books... I mean, honestly, has anyone ever seen a wrestler that actually made it to the big show, i.e.: WWF, WCW, etc., that wasn't great come out of Calgary? Or, for that matter, Canada? Chris Benoit(CRIPPLAH~! \m/ I love Chris, If I was a gay man, I'd fuck him. OH, WAIT, I AM A GAY MAN~! HAHAHAHA LOL2003~! He is the epitome of everything North American Wrestling should be... Speaking of epitomes, WHERE THE HELL IS ANGLE ON THIS POLL~!?) Jushin "Thunder" Liger (Oh, Jushin. He is teh roq. Best Junior Ever... Although I prefer Lucharesu, or Purolibre, or whatever you call it, in MPW over straight New-Japan style Juniors, Lyger still rocks.) Mitsuhara Misawa(The greatest wrestler. Ever. Any style. Any Country. Of Any Era.) Toshiaki Kawada(On par with Misawa, wrestling-wise, but I mark for the haircut and the tights.) So there you have it. Discuss it amongst yourself while I go entertain myself with a ping-pong ball and some matches. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
