Bret Hart responds to Ric Flair's comments

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

Let's just sum it all up then real simply...

 

Bret Hart is a phenomenal worker.

Ric Flair is a phenomenal worker.

They are both legends.

They both had ***** matches.

They were both out of line.

 

Basically it's fun to argue it because nothing in the WWE is remotely this interesting.

[Brett Favre 0]

Yeah, discussion threads are for people to agree, not discuss.

[Promoter 0]

Let me put it to you this way: the NWO actually hurt WCW as much as helped it because Bischoff was essentially putting WWE over (from the time he signed Hogan actually). You got Flair and Sting who've taken turns carrying that company, and you've got the Giant, Benoit, Eddie, Mysterio, Jericho, and Goldberg on deck ready to become your next big stars, and you're basing your company around the Nashes, Halls, Hogans, and Savages? WTF kind of logic is that?

 

WCW (and ECW) died, so why should Vince have to put them over for any reason?

Biggest angle in history? Maybe at the height of the Monday night wars and viewership was split right down the middle. Not when viewership is almost 4 to 1 in McMahon's favor.

I actually like this thread and long convo as long as the repitition isn't done too often. I mean we might have Flair and Hart accuse us of being "routine"

 

I was asked by someone to post about the invasion in another thread, so my points would be there. Vince should have put over wcw/nwo/ecw because that would be best for business. I am also not arguing the point you made about Bischoff putting over nWo over the wcw. That is a different topic all together. I think the reason this thread and these topics are going so long is that the current stuff isn't exactly getting any strong reactions from any of us. I mean you can only spin the HHH/Eugene topic so much and hate on Bradshaw to an extent that can entertain discussions that go into the history of wrestling.

[Guest Trivia247]

Nearly off topic but I always thought every Dungeon grad who hit it big in the big three should have wrestled Bret at least once. Storm, Benoit, Jericho, hell Mike Lozansky Dag nabbit.

[Guest Choken One]

Storm was at the last of the group when Bret was already an established star in WWF. They simply never had the chance as Storm toured ECW for a good 3-5 years and by the time Storm arrived to WCW, Bret had already suffered his career ending injury.

 

It's match that would have been very interesting. It's interesting how many claim these days not working with bret is their biggest disapointment...yet no one seems to claim that about flair or the other biggies at least not to this extent.

[caboose 0]

Probably because a lot of wrestlers who would have said it, (Triple H, Rocky, Angle and whatnot) have wrestled Flair.

[Guest MikeSC]

This thread could make a record I swear. Anyways, as for the nWo and wcw invasion topic, the wwe blew it plain and simple. That was an angle that was years in the making. The wwe blew it because they had no concrete plan to make it be what it should have been and that is the greatest angle in history.

You're ignoring the obvious problems people ignore when they claim Crockett dropped the ball when he bought UWF.

 

WCW didn't have stars. Hate to break it to you. Non-existant crowds and bleeding money does not actually equal solid draws in the company. So, what WWF guy do you sacrifice to put over somebody who might be unable to draw even after that? Angle? Austin? Jericho? Rock?

Vince was cheap and did not want to pay for the services of the big guns at first. Vince never had the plan of making wcw separate.

And, as we saw with the Steiner and Goldberg flame-outs, he had a good reason to be unwilling to spend much money. How much good has Sting done TNA to date? And Vince had every intention of them being seperate --- him being unable to get a TV deal for them did a good job of killing it.

How in the hell could the wwe expect wcw to get over in a wwe environment? Of course, they would get booed initially. The wwe did not think that angle out imo. They brought in Hogan, Hall, and Nash and ruined that angle as well. Just as with the brand split there was too much damn confusion with the wcw invasion and all the belts floating about the place.

To get the nWo over, you'd have to let them annihilate the faces. Doing that did a BANG-UP job of killing WCW, so the WWF doing the same idiotic thing wouldn't exactly be logical. Same problem with GB.

 

WCW was killed because all of the faces were killed by the nWo and all of the heels were killed by GB. When those stopped drawing, they had a rather big problem.

Another thing was that Vince did not follow the gameplan of the original reason why the takeover in wcw sparked interest. I won't get into what I felt the wwe could have done in detail, but I will say this. The wwe could have spun things to make it seem like the nWo members had returned for their receipt from Vince Mcmahon for killing wcw.

Nobody in the world would have bought it. WCW's booking worked because some casual fans ASSUMED that WWF was invading. This wouldn't work in this situation.

The storylines were nonsensical like Ric Flair actually backing against the company he helped mold. The wwe rushed the angle and confused the damn market by killing off the fanbases of wcw and ecw. There were fans who only watched those entities, but Vince seemed to think otherwise. You don't do any favours to destroy the properties you had now owned in 2002.

Vince didn't kill them anymore than a doctor who is operating on a patient with an operable brain tumor killed the patient.

Foley did put comedy into his character, but that was not really apart of his ringwork(with the exception of Dude Love). There is a difference. I think it is also telling that HBK didn't have that great a match with Ric Flair either to be honest.

You mean when Shawn was still basically a tag wrestler?

I always just took it that both men aren't what they use to be. I was rather disappointed with HBK/Flair.

Are you referring to last year's PPV match?

Apparently, Bret even thought they were having a good match at Montreal, up until the you-know-what.

Then Bret was insane. Sorry, but the match was horrible.

-=Mike

[Guest JMA]

Is EVERY wrestler with a website going to comment on this story? The Honky Tonk Man has gotten into the fray now.

[Gert T 0]

If Honky is smart he bashes Flair for never being I-C champ and Bret for not having a reign as long as his!

[BHK 0]

Is EVERY wrestler with a website going to comment on this story? The Honky Tonk Man has gotten into the fray now.

It's arguably the two greatest wrestlers of all time totally bashing each other. It's huge.

[Guest Birds in the Hotel]

Flair>Hart. Period.

[Guest JMA]

Is EVERY wrestler with a website going to comment on this story? The Honky Tonk Man has gotten into the fray now.

It's arguably the two greatest wrestlers of all time totally bashing each other. It's huge.

I suppose. But I keep expecting to hear Todd Pettingill weigh in with his thoughts on the matter.

[TheBigSwigg 0]

Flair>Hart. Period.

Flair=/=Hart and Hart=/=Flair.

[Jobber of the Week 0]

I can't wait for Bad News Brown's update. His comment about Bret as a whiny bastard who, if it was a shoot fight, would never get a job higher than post-show breakdown crew, had me in stitches.

[Guest JMA]

Personally, I want to hear what Harley Race has to say about all this. Bret recently wrote an article about Harley that is featured on both of their respective websites.

[Guest Staravenger]

I love the backup of the use of ">". How the fuck does one argue THAT? With another except the roles reversed? Stop acting like children and either give valid arguments that aren't 2 worders, or don't say shit at all.

[Guest MikeSC]

Storm was at the last of the group when Bret was already an established star in WWF. They simply never had the chance as Storm toured ECW for a good 3-5 years and by the time Storm arrived to WCW, Bret had already suffered his career ending injury.

 

It's match that would have been very interesting. It's interesting how many claim these days not working with bret is their biggest disapointment...yet no one seems to claim that about flair or the other biggies at least not to this extent.

Who, exactly, hasn't worked with Flair to date?

-=Mike

[Guest Choken One]

Ok Maybe not Flair but no one seems to say they regret not facing Hogan, Steamboat, Savage for the most part.

[Guest MikeSC]

Ok Maybe not Flair but no one seems to say they regret not facing Hogan, Steamboat, Savage for the most part.

Well, most people have faced Hogan, too. The lack of a desire to face Steamboat is a little baffling. If Flair had retired back in, say, 1995, you'd hear plenty of people saying they wished they faced him.

-=Mike

[Guest Choken One]

I wonder how it takes for Hogan to get in on this one.

 

The Three Biggest egos in wrestling history...It'll be gold.

 

(Shawn and HHH's agenda is already known so they dont really need to bother)

 

Here is something I find amusing and not on topic...The person each of these two consider their favorite person to work with

 

Bret Hart=Curt Hening.

Ric Flair=Dusty Rhodes.

[Guest MikeSC]

I thought Flair said Steamboat was his fave. I can't imagine he LIKED Rhodes in any way, shape, or form after all of their crap.

-=Mike

[Guest Choken One]

He said many times he loved working with Rhodes the most and that Steamboat was his great match and sting was his greatest rival.

 

Just like for HHH

 

Shawn's is HHH's Rhodes

Mick is HHH's Steamboat

Rock is HHH's Sting.

[Guest JMA]

I'd say Storm comes across as the most non-biased of the wrestlers currently talking about this. He doesn't really have an axe to grind with either man.

[Promoter 0]

You're ignoring the obvious problems people ignore when they claim Crockett dropped the ball when he bought UWF.

 

WCW didn't have stars. Hate to break it to you. Non-existant crowds and bleeding money does not actually equal solid draws in the company. So, what WWF guy do you sacrifice to put over somebody who might be unable to draw even after that? Angle? Austin? Jericho? Rock?

 

And, as we saw with the Steiner and Goldberg flame-outs, he had a good reason to be unwilling to spend much money. How much good has Sting done TNA to date? And Vince had every intention of them being seperate --- him being unable to get a TV deal for them did a good job of killing it.

How in the hell could the wwe expect wcw to get over in a wwe environment? Of course, they would get booed initially. The wwe did not think that angle out imo. They brought in Hogan, Hall, and Nash and ruined that angle as well. Just as with the brand split there was too much damn confusion with the wcw invasion and all the belts floating about the place.

To get the nWo over, you'd have to let them annihilate the faces. Doing that did a BANG-UP job of killing WCW, so the WWF doing the same idiotic thing wouldn't exactly be logical. Same problem with GB.

 

WCW was killed because all of the faces were killed by the nWo and all of the heels were killed by GB. When those stopped drawing, they had a rather big problem.

 

Nobody in the world would have bought it. WCW's booking worked because some casual fans ASSUMED that WWF was invading. This wouldn't work in this situation.

Vince didn't kill them anymore than a doctor who is operating on a patient with an operable brain tumor killed the patient.

-=Mike

I don't want to get too much off the topic, but just responding. WCW didn't have stars? So, who were Sting, Goldberg, Hogan, Hall, Nash, etc. Jusdt because they weren't apart of the last nitro didn't mean they weren't in the company. Don't forget the last nitro was going to be the night of champions, but Vince had bought the company and Bischoff's plan for the show fell through. I'm a wwf mark, but to say wcw didn't have stars is a bit of a stretch.

 

 

I went into how things could have been done with who goes over who and whatnot in the other thread. The wwe didn't use Stiener properly and yes I know he was a stiff. It still doesn't take away that the wwe casted him as a face against all good logic even when the fans were turning on him. Goldberg in a wig and selling for Mark Henry says it all.

 

You wouldn't have to let the nWo get over all the faces like wcw. The wcw screwed up with the nWo angle because Bischoff had no long term plan for it(sound familiar?). Sting and Goldberg should have been the ones to put a nail in the coffin of the group, but they didn't.

 

I don't think people bought Vince killing his own creation either or Flair as co-owner. The nWo wouldn't be invading, but returning to Vince Mcmahon and wanting their just due for the services they had done down south. That would be much better than "kill my own creation..me and the nWo". Vince killed the nWo long before he made that announcement about the nWo era in the wwf being over. Silly stuff like "killing" Rock did that. He injured the patient and put him on the table and played doctor by ending its life with the motivation of murdering it for personal reasons. As for the HBK/Flair match I am referring to last year's match on ppv and not the match when he was a tag wrestler.

 

To bring it back on topic. I would laugh my ass off if this is all an old school work

[Promoter 0]

Dusty Rhodes chimes in, choosing to put himself over as much as anyone, but here goes:

 

"Having never had the privilege of actually wrestling with Bret Hart, it is hard to acknowledge his claim of being the best there ever was. As far as the controversy with Ric Flair goes, being around Flair for 352 days a year during his career and guiding him as a mentor and making sure he used his own name and not mine to establish himself in his career gives me a better outlook on who was the best. Outside of the ring I shouldn’t have a comment, but inside the ring through the years all the accolades Flair has gotten from guys like David “Flair” Meltzer, being a great fan of Flair’s would think he was the greatest to ever lace his boots. When I think of the greatest to be in the ring with Dusty Rhodes, I think of guys like Tully Blanchard, Kevin Sullivan, and Harley Race. It doesn’t matter who was the best hooker, shooter, or who trained in what basement. It boiled down to one thing. They say every seat in an arena is 17 inches apart and putting asses in those seats is what it’s all about. If that’s the case - Bret Hart or Ric Flair? I went 7 days a week with Ric Flair for an hour every night and we sold them all out. But enough about me. Ric Flair had the ability to put an ass every 17 inches. Bret Hart went from Calgary to the WWF and made his name. I have a tremendous amount of respect for him, but the greatest wrestler to lace his boots was the Nature Boy Ric Flair. Nobody in the business today and nobody in the history of the business could lace Ric Flair’s boots. Now that I think of it Dave M, I think Bret Hart had boots that zip up, and Ric Flair’s laced up."

Source???

[Jobber of the Week 0]

Mick is HHH's Steamboat

Uh, wouldn't Mick be Funk? Austin would be Steamboat.

[Guest croweater]

I think the problem with the discussion in this thread is that people, when taking one side, are completely condeming the otherside.

 

To say everything Bret did is better than anything Flair did is ridiculus. We all know both of these guys have put on great matches and have elevated many workers (I think the word "made" is being thrown around far too much, The only person I believe Flair truely "made" would be Sting. Bret has also elevated people greatly, and while it was deffinately him who elevated Austin and many others, I don't think he really "made anybody)

 

They were both great.

 

The only old school Flair matches I've seen are on his DVD, and considering that, I will take it to be an accurate representation of his Career. Now, from what I saw, the ringwork was good, and he is as entertaining, but it was obvious that he was repetative and isn't the greatest at psycology. Now, I know that will be argued and it really is personal opinion, but Flair just doesn't have the same intensity that Bret had in the ring. He just didn't seem to hold up as well. I've watched the Flair vs. Steamboat series with high expectations and was disapointed. The psycology and selling, while better than most, was not brilliant. The work ethic and workrate was obvious, but I found the matches not what they are cracked up to be.

 

I find selling to be one of the most important things in a match. It helps get you, your oponent and the match over with the crowd. Bret was the MASTER of selling. I don't know if you all agree with me, but Bret was light years ahead of Flair when it came to this. Flair's flops and flips had there moments when they were entertaining and sometimes they took away from the match and sometimes they didn't. the older he got, the more they seemed to take away from the match, butit could instantly pull you out of a Flair match.

 

Both wrestlers are repetetive in their move sets. However the type of repetition Flair has, and the type Bret has are differet. Flair was repetitive in the style of his matches. They had the same structure, psycology and pacing. It dragged good matches out of dopes but only held up as good matches when against other great workers.

 

Bret was repetitive in that he did the 5 moves of doom. But this is different because he could use them in a different context in every match, most of his matches were original and he didn't stand by the same formula.

 

As for Shawn, yes, he is one of the all time great workers. He busts his ass completely in almost every match and is barely repetative. But his selling again was no where near as good as Brets (even if you don't include the nip up), which in my opinion made Bret a better wrestler over all.

 

Could someone please post the HTM's article on here, or maybe just a link to his site?

 

This is the most interesting thread in the WWE folder for a long time.

[Guest Choken One]

HHH's best matches were with Foley.

[Guest cobainwasmurdered]

Let's just sum it all up then real simply...

 

Bret Hart is a phenomenal worker.

Ric Flair is a phenomenal worker.

They are both legends.

They both had ***** matches.

They were both out of line.

 

Basically it's fun to argue it because nothing in the WWE is remotely this interesting.

 

Bingo. I'm not surprised at all that the two greatest wrestlers of modern time seem to loathe each other. Ego's like theirs aren't going to match up well.

 

I think they both made good points and they both made some points that weren't so good.

[Guest Staravenger]

I don't think Storm has an axe to grind with anyone period, but I don't read all of his columns. The complete opposite is probably Honkytonk Man who pisses and moans about EVERYONE.