Bret Hart responds to Ric Flair's comments

[Shanghai Kid 0]

Sorry, but hassling me to do a Scot Keith type reveiw of Ric Flair, and Bret Hart matches is a cheap tatic.

No, it's not a harsh tactic. It's giving you the opportunity to make your point by saying "THIS happened in THIS match." Those who claimed Flair took liberties, aside from Bret, have yet to name any specific examples.

 

Ric Flairs matches with Steamboast where by far his best perfromaces, but Flairs major flaw is the fact he does stupid spots that take away from the drama of the match.

 

Such as?

How?

When do they happen?

How is the drama ruined?

 

I want specifics, and I think everyone reading does too. My mind is open, and you may convince me.

 

I am not flaming i was called the idiot first. If i have to prove to someone that Flair did the same high spots match after match, they are clearly nuts.

 

This was not your argument before. Your argument was that Bret's matches were better. So prove it. I laid it out for you. Do it. Please.

 

Perhaps i am being so harsh,  becuase i was lead to believe Flair was a the greatest ever. Perhaps if i was told he was a limited worker who made up for thiks by being one of the most charismatic stars ever, i would be a bit more kinder towards him.

 

Is this brethart talking or Bret Hart talking?

 

Steamboat Bret Hart the Macho Man those are 3 wrestlers greater  than Flair IMHO.

 

How?

What matches did they have that were better?

What specifically did they do better than Flair?

What could Flair have done to get up to their level?

How much Flair have you seen?

How much Steamboat have you seen?

How much Savage have you seen?

 

Until you're willing to answer all of these questions, you're wasting the time of everyone here by throwing out statements like that and not explaining yourself.

Your annoying me.

 

I post on a public computer. So i cant watch any DVD's right now. I think the Drama in most Flair matches where ruined by his spots. I am offering that opinion, i dont have to offer any specifics. I think its stupid i have to offer specifics when i am talking about spots Flair did in every single match.

 

When i talk about how disapointed i am about Flair, this is Alex Brown talking. Sorry i treid my hardest to like classic Flair matches. I tried to look extra hard for Flair greatness, but its not there. Perhaps i am totally insane, but i see nothing speical about Flair apart from this promos.

 

 

Ok Steamboat has a better match with the Macho Man. Even though it was a lot shorter, and had a screwy finish. There wrestlemania 3 match is slightly better than anything Flair did with Steamboat.

 

Every single match Bret had is better than anything Flair has done.

 

Heres a few matches Flair can never hope to touch ever.

 

Bret Vs Owen Hart Wrestlemania 10 (There is there cage match too.)

 

Bret Vs Shawn Micheals Wrestlemania 12

 

Bret vs the Undertaker over the Edge. (Just as good as Shawns hell in the cell match, except Bret didnt need the cage to get a good match out of Taker.)

 

Bret Vs Stone Cold Steve Austin Wrestlemania 13 ( There was a other match they had before this one that was great too.)

 

Bret Hart Vs Mr Perfect.

 

Bret hart Vs British Bulldog

 

In these matches Bret wrestles a serious varied style. List me some Flair matches that you think i havent seen, and will change my mind, and i will try to track them down.

 

 

PS: I am arguing the fact that Flairs style of wrestling was limited, and distracted from the Drama of the matches. If you like flip flops over the ropes, and for your heel to be more amusing than the babyface stealing his heat fine, we have diffrent tastes.

MY GOD, you are a FREAKING MARK!

 

Every match Bret did is better than anything Flair did?

 

Bret vs Savio Vega was better than Flair/Steamboat?

 

Bret/Undertaker, WTF? That match was nowhere near HBK/Undertaker, it didn't have the psycology, it didn't have the bumps, and it didn't have a story.

 

Please give me an example of Flair in the 80's taking away from his great matches by doing comedy. I'm beggin ya.

 

The only thing that Bret has done that has come close to Flair/Steamboat is vs Austin, and I think most people will take Flair/Steamboat over that.

[Guest Dazed]

brethart, I warned you to back up your points. People are being far more patient with you than you deserve. This is your final warning on the matter.

[Guest Loss]

Your annoying me.

Good to see we have at least one thing in common. Your not annoying me. You're annoying me though.

 

I post on a public computer. So i cant watch any DVD's right now. I think the Drama in most Flair matches where ruined by his spots. I am offering that opinion, i dont have to offer any specifics. I think its stupid i have to offer specifics when i am talking about spots Flair did in every single match.

 

Where did I say every single match? I'd be happy with ONE example. One. Just one. I am actually interested in understanding where you're coming from, but you're dead set against explaining yourself. You don't have to, granted, but you're not helping your point at all.

 

When i talk about how disapointed i am about Flair, this is Alex Brown talking.

 

Everyone say hi to Alex.

 

Sorry i treid my hardest to like classic Flair matches. I  tried to look extra hard for Flair greatness, but its not there. Perhaps i am totally insane, but i see nothing speical about Flair apart from this promos.

 

That's fine. You're entitled to your opinion. Believe it or not, I would agree that Bret, at his best, was better than Flair, at his best. However, that doesn't make me like Flair any less. What I'd like for you to do is tell me what specifically. Again, I'd be happy with one example. Just one.

 

Ok Steamboat has a better match with the Macho Man. Even though it was a lot shorter, and had a screwy finish. There wrestlemania 3 match is slightly better than anything Flair did with Steamboat.

 

You think that match is better than any Flair/Steamboat match? Now we're getting somewhere. Why? Was it the pacing or the offense or the drama or the crowd heat or what? Tell me. I want to know.

 

Every single match Bret had is better than anything Flair has done.

 

This is absolute bullshit. You mean to tell me Flair v Steamboat is worse than Bret's Coliseum Video matches against Repo Man? In essence, that's what you're saying.

 

Heres a few matches Flair can never hope to touch ever.

 

Bret Vs Owen Hart Wrestlemania 10 (There is there cage match too.)

 

Arguable, but ok.

 

Bret Vs Shawn Micheals  Wrestlemania 12

 

Come on. I could name two dozen Flair matches, at least, that blow this one out of the water.

 

Bret vs the Undertaker over the Edge. (Just as good as Shawns hell in the cell match, except Bret didnt need the cage to get a good match out of Taker.)

 

Do you mean One Night Only? Or Summerslam? The first Over The Edge was in 1998 and Bret was already in WCW by that time.

 

Bret Vs Stone Cold Steve Austin Wrestlemania 13 ( There was a other match they had before this one that was great too.)

 

That would be Survivor Series '96. That's an arguable point.

 

Bret Hart Vs Mr Perfect.

 

King of the Ring 1993 or Summerslam 1991? Or both? And what made it, or them, better?

 

Bret hart Vs British Bulldog

Summerslam 1992 or In Your House V? Or another match from when they were both in Stampede? Or all of them? And what made it, or them, better?

 

In these matches Bret wrestles a serious varied style.

 

By doing what?

 

List me some Flair matches that you think i havent seen, and will change my mind, and i will try to track them down.

 

Sure.

 

I'll try to stay between 1982 and 1990.

 

06/04/82 - Ric Flair v Ricky Steamboat

06/08/82 - Ric Flair v Jumbo Tsuruta

12/25/82 - Ric Flair v Kerry Von Erich

06/08/83 - Ric Flair v Jumbo Tsuruta

12/25/83 - Ric Flair v David Von Erich

05/29/84 - Ric Flair v Ricky Steamboat

04/23/85 - Ric Flair v Riki Choshu

04/24/85 - Ric Flair v Jumbo Tsuruta

10/19/85 - Ric Flair v Rick Martel

02/14/86 - Ric Flair v Barry Windham

03/27/88 - Ric Flair v Sting

07/10/88 - Ric Flair v Lex Luger

12/26/88 - Ric Flair v Lex Luger

02/20/89 - Ric Flair v Ricky Steamboat

03/18/89 - Ric Flair v Ricky Steamboat

08/??/89 - Ric Flair v Brad Armstrong

12/02/89 - Ric Flair v Bobby Eaton

02/17/90 - Ric Flair v Brian Pillman

02/24/90 - Ric Flair v Lex Luger

 

I won't argue that all of these are better than every match you mentioned. But I will argue that you've seen them all. I could list others as well, but I don't have specific dates on them because records weren't kept as well in Flair's era as in Bret's, and as grueling as Bret's schedule was, Flair wrestled even more as the traveling champ.

 

But that should get you started.

[Guest brethart]

Sorry, but hassling me to do a Scot Keith type reveiw of Ric Flair, and Bret Hart matches is a cheap tatic.

No, it's not a harsh tactic. It's giving you the opportunity to make your point by saying "THIS happened in THIS match." Those who claimed Flair took liberties, aside from Bret, have yet to name any specific examples.

 

Ric Flairs matches with Steamboast where by far his best perfromaces, but Flairs major flaw is the fact he does stupid spots that take away from the drama of the match.

 

Such as?

How?

When do they happen?

How is the drama ruined?

 

I want specifics, and I think everyone reading does too. My mind is open, and you may convince me.

 

I am not flaming i was called the idiot first. If i have to prove to someone that Flair did the same high spots match after match, they are clearly nuts.

 

This was not your argument before. Your argument was that Bret's matches were better. So prove it. I laid it out for you. Do it. Please.

 

Perhaps i am being so harsh,  becuase i was lead to believe Flair was a the greatest ever. Perhaps if i was told he was a limited worker who made up for thiks by being one of the most charismatic stars ever, i would be a bit more kinder towards him.

 

Is this brethart talking or Bret Hart talking?

 

Steamboat Bret Hart the Macho Man those are 3 wrestlers greater  than Flair IMHO.

 

How?

What matches did they have that were better?

What specifically did they do better than Flair?

What could Flair have done to get up to their level?

How much Flair have you seen?

How much Steamboat have you seen?

How much Savage have you seen?

 

Until you're willing to answer all of these questions, you're wasting the time of everyone here by throwing out statements like that and not explaining yourself.

Your annoying me.

 

I post on a public computer. So i cant watch any DVD's right now. I think the Drama in most Flair matches where ruined by his spots. I am offering that opinion, i dont have to offer any specifics. I think its stupid i have to offer specifics when i am talking about spots Flair did in every single match.

 

When i talk about how disapointed i am about Flair, this is Alex Brown talking. Sorry i treid my hardest to like classic Flair matches. I tried to look extra hard for Flair greatness, but its not there. Perhaps i am totally insane, but i see nothing speical about Flair apart from this promos.

 

 

Ok Steamboat has a better match with the Macho Man. Even though it was a lot shorter, and had a screwy finish. There wrestlemania 3 match is slightly better than anything Flair did with Steamboat.

 

Every single match Bret had is better than anything Flair has done.

 

Heres a few matches Flair can never hope to touch ever.

 

Bret Vs Owen Hart Wrestlemania 10 (There is there cage match too.)

 

Bret Vs Shawn Micheals Wrestlemania 12

 

Bret vs the Undertaker over the Edge. (Just as good as Shawns hell in the cell match, except Bret didnt need the cage to get a good match out of Taker.)

 

Bret Vs Stone Cold Steve Austin Wrestlemania 13 ( There was a other match they had before this one that was great too.)

 

Bret Hart Vs Mr Perfect.

 

Bret hart Vs British Bulldog

 

In these matches Bret wrestles a serious varied style. List me some Flair matches that you think i havent seen, and will change my mind, and i will try to track them down.

 

 

PS: I am arguing the fact that Flairs style of wrestling was limited, and distracted from the Drama of the matches. If you like flip flops over the ropes, and for your heel to be more amusing than the babyface stealing his heat fine, we have diffrent tastes.

MY GOD, you are a FREAKING MARK!

 

Every match Bret did is better than anything Flair did?

 

Bret vs Savio Vega was better than Flair/Steamboat?

 

Bret/Undertaker, WTF? That match was nowhere near HBK/Undertaker, it didn't have the psycology, it didn't have the bumps, and it didn't have a story.

 

Please give me an example of Flair in the 80's taking away from his great matches by doing comedy. I'm beggin ya.

 

The only thing that Bret has done that has come close to Flair/Steamboat is vs Austin, and I think most people will take Flair/Steamboat over that.

Have you seen the UK pay per veiw over the Edge? If i am a mark so are all the people blindly defending Flair. Most of Brets Major matches blow Flairs away. I've been lead to believe that Flair was some kind of wrestling god, by the internet smarks. Flair failed to live up to my expectations.

 

I think most people who are not internet smarks will take bret Austin over Flair Steamboat. Bret Austin is the match i show people if i want to get them into wrestling. You want a example of a match where the comedy takes away from the drama? Ok how about the match where Flair gets punched in the face a few times, and then staggers about, and flops on his face? Oh yeah that is basicly every single match he did.

[Guest Loss]

It pops the crowd, it makes his opponent look good and it usually transitions into a pinfall attempt if his opponent takes the chance. Name a match where it's had an adverse affect. If every single Flair match is like that, it should be easy.

[Guest brethart]

I personally dont like that spot myself. I makes Flair look funny, and amusing. It makes the match look fake. I think it steals the babyfaces heat myself. Thats just my point of veiw though. I supose most people find it amusing. Lots of people liked Hogan. That doesnt stpo me hating his guts.

[Guest Loss]

I personally dont like that spot myself. I makes Flair look funny, and amusing. It makes the match look fake. I think it steals the babyfaces heat myself. Thats just my point of veiw though. I supose most people find it amusing. Lots of people liked Hogan. That doesnt stpo me hating his guts.

Fine. You finally explained yourself on something.

 

Now, NAME A MATCH where he has done it and it has had this effect.

[Guest brethart]

I personally dont like that spot myself. I makes Flair look funny, and amusing. It makes the match look fake. I think it steals the babyfaces heat myself. Thats just my point of veiw though. I supose most people find it amusing. Lots of people liked Hogan. That doesnt stpo me hating his guts.

Fine. You finally explained yourself on something.

 

Now, NAME A MATCH where he has done it and it has had this effect.

Ok almost every single match on the Ric Flair DVD that isnt the one with Terry Funk. The Barry Windham match was a big offender. The Dusty Rhodes Flair was flopping about for the man titted whale. I just dont like Flairs selling, and bumping full stop.

 

PS: I hate the way Flair sells Stings body press slam. It doesnt seem like he is in pain at all. Just flops about on the ground like a clown, with his fake acting.

[Guest GreatOne]

the controversy was at fever pitch levels because of that and only a deaf,blind mute(or Vince ala Invasion or NWO) could've wasted such an opportunity

I'll go ahead and address this canard.

 

The WCW Invasion WOULDN'T work for a simple reason --- NOBODY in WCW drew. At all. They hadn't drawn SQUAT for more than a few years at that point. It'd be like blaming the NFL for the lack of success for the WLAF and NFL Europe. This also works for the nWo, an angle as much responsible for WCW's death as any.

I'm glad that SOMEBODY finally made this point. The Invasion (and NWO for that matter) were never going to work the way everyone wanted it to.

 

1)The NWO worked in WCW because let's face it, even when they were winning the ratings they were always the number two promotion. So given that, why would number one all the sudden need to "sink down" to number two's level? Yes the Jets beat the Colts and led to to the NFL merger, but does anyone think the Rhein Fire could beat the Patriots today? (Who would Rohan Davey play for? heh)

 

2)Bischoff did everything based on what WWE was doing. Sure there was, as Chris Jericho would say, the influx of real wrestlers, as well as Sting, Luger, Flair, AA, the Steiners et al, but he made it pretty clear of the duration of the NWO what their worth was to the company. Basically replacing him with Russo didn't help that perception. Hell Bischoff himself once said that Goldberg was meant to show Vince how he was supposedly misusing Ken Shamrock. As we've seen, hinging your business ALMOST ENTIRELY on what the other guy's doing only leads to certain death.

 

3)You put Booker T, DDP, RVD, (and even Goldberg had Vince gone that far) over Rock, Austin, Angle, and Undertaker like Hogan, Hall, and Nash went over all of WCW and watch business drop even more than it did. Hell people rant about Bradshaw being champ killing business now. As Foley would say, people would fart all over it. Thus why you turn Austin. Let's say WWE did an invasion angle at the end of 95 consisting of Austin, HHH, and Vader. Sure we might have liked it but it wouldn't exactly work the same would it?

 

Also the NWO wouldn't have worked in WWE anyway. Yeah sure everyone hated Austin for running over Scott Hall on the Smackdown following No Way Out but did anyone really expect Austin, Rock, HHH, Undertaker, Angle, Kane and everyone else to sell them like WCW did? Hell no, why? Go back to #1, it was a one-time deal that worked in a company that Bischoff basically wanted to turn into WWE South anyway well before Russo jumped.

[Gert T 0]

Loss, how would you rank some of those matches you listed?

 

Just wondering because I have heard of half of them and only seen about a third of them. I heard that '84 match with Steamboat was pretty good.

[Guest jm29195]

'Flair vs. Bret

July 14, 2004

 

I wasn't going to get into the middle of this but it seems I must. As you are probably aware, Bret Hart and Ric Flair are having a War of Words. Ric bashed Bret in his book, and Bret has retaliated on his website. ( www.brethart.com ) I didn't want to get into this because battles like this never seem to serve any good. Bret Hart fans will remain Bret Hart fans, as will Ric Flair fans. The only thing accomplished is that the business gets a black eye. The reason I'm going to add the following words on this subject is that I received an e-mail after my commentary endorsing Flair's book. In my commentary I made the statement that I thought this book was the best wrestling book, "there is, was or ever will be." The e-mail I received was wondering if my use of the Bret ism, was a shot at Bret and an indication I was siding with Flair, on their battle of words.

 

Let me assure everyone that my use of the Bret ism was due to me being a big Bret Hart mark, and nothing more. I stole the line solely in an attempt at a cheap pop. The truth be told the one exception I did have with the book was Flair's bashing of Bret. While I certainly think everyone is entitled to their opinion, Flair's comments seemed very out of place and there simply to take a personal shot at Hart. If you haven't read the book, Flair is talking about his departure from WWE and states he was asked to drop the title to Bret, he did so, and then takes three or four paragraphs to state that Bret didn't draw, was repetitive, was a big mark for himself, and shouldn't be considered a great worker. This was only a few paragraphs and really seemed out of place. I choose to ignore it since it is such a small portion of the book, which is why it didn't detract from my enjoyment of it.

 

Bret has since rebutted Flair by calling him nothing short of a repetitive hack with no ring psychology, who was clumsy and dangerous. I think it is safe to say that these two individuals have issues with each other and I think it's best we all make our own judgements on their work. If you enjoyed Flair's stuff, great and if you enjoy Bret's that's great too. If you are like me and enjoyed them both, all the better. I know I will be asked a million times whom I consider the better worker, but to be honest I don't know. I've never worked with Bret (Likely the biggest regret of my career), and I've only worked Ric one time and according to his book, it was a time when he was at his worst.

 

This brings up another question I got about my Flair book commentary. I was asked what I meant when I said:

 

I now better understand why the one match we had together (A tag match with Christian and I defending the WWE Tag Team Titles against Flair and the Undertaker) was the way it was. If I knew then what I knew now, it could have been so much more an honour and special night for me, instead of the frustrating and confusing night it was.

 

In the book Flair talks about confidence issues and the mental state he was in after leaving WCW the last time. He said he was having anxiety attacks and was having a hard time even functioning in the ring for a very long period of time. It was during this period of his career that the match I mentioned took place. In that match Flair was a baby face with Taker and during the match Flair was constantly calling spots that made absolutely no sense what so ever. I was dumb founded and confused during the match because I was in there with a Legend and felt like I had to call over him to salvage a match. At the time I assumed that Ric was just a terrible baby face and so accustom to being the heel that he kept trying to shine us and take all the bumps. After reading his book I now assume that it was due to his anxiety attacks and confidence issues and that he was not mentally there for the performance. If I had known he wasn't at his best for the match I would have loved to have had the privilege of call the match for him.

 

Now I know this statement goes to endorse what Bret has said but I find it hard to believe that the performance he had with me is typical Ric Flair. He has had great matches with so many people over the years. I think quite probably they are both great workers, each with their own strengths and flaws. Like many things in wrestling it is all a matter of taste. I preferred Bret's matches, but preferred Flair's promos. I think Flair was a bigger part of the wrestling industry because his career spanned a greater number of years and Bret was on top far lesser a time and really only worked for the one company. (I refuse to acknowledge Bret's WCW years because he was so absurdly wasted.)

 

I think the best advice for everyone can be found in Flair's book when he says it is best to judge people on how they treat you and not how you've heard they've treated others. I know Flair fairly well and he has always been a class act with me, and I will judge him on that and treat him accordingly. I only met Bret three times and have nothing but respect for him, he too in my eyes is a class act, and will treat him accordingly. I think all of you should do the same, when looking at their work. You don't need us to tell you who you think is great and who you want to be a fan off. You've seen their matches you can make up your own minds. Don't let this battle of words tarnish either man's place in your heart's or this industries history.

 

Till next week,

Lance Storm '

 

 

 

As a fan of both of their work, I can definetly see where Lance is coming from here, both were great wrestlers but in different ways...

[Guest Loss]

the controversy was at fever pitch levels because of that and only a deaf,blind mute(or Vince ala Invasion or NWO) could've wasted such an opportunity

I'll go ahead and address this canard.

 

The WCW Invasion WOULDN'T work for a simple reason --- NOBODY in WCW drew. At all. They hadn't drawn SQUAT for more than a few years at that point. It'd be like blaming the NFL for the lack of success for the WLAF and NFL Europe. This also works for the nWo, an angle as much responsible for WCW's death as any.

I'm glad that SOMEBODY finally made this point. The Invasion (and NWO for that matter) were never going to work the way everyone wanted it to.

 

1)The NWO worked in WCW because let's face it, even when they were winning the ratings they were always the number two promotion. So given that, why would number one all the sudden need to "sink down" to number two's level? Yes the Jets beat the Colts and led to to the NFL merger, but does anyone think the Rhein Fire could beat the Patriots today? (Who would Rohan Davey play for? heh)

 

2)Bischoff did everything based on what WWE was doing. Sure there was, as Chris Jericho would say, the influx of real wrestlers, as well as Sting, Luger, Flair, AA, the Steiners et al, but he made it pretty clear of the duration of the NWO what their worth was to the company. Basically replacing him with Russo didn't help that perception. Hell Bischoff himself once said that Goldberg was meant to show Vince how he was supposedly misusing Ken Shamrock. As we've seen, hinging your business ALMOST ENTIRELY on what the other guy's doing only leads to certain death.

 

3)You put Booker T, DDP, RVD, (and even Goldberg had Vince gone that far) over Rock, Austin, Angle, and Undertaker like Hogan, Hall, and Nash went over all of WCW and watch business drop even more than it did. Hell people rant about Bradshaw being champ killing business now. As Foley would say, people would fart all over it. Thus why you turn Austin. Let's say WWE did an invasion angle at the end of 95 consisting of Austin, HHH, and Vader. Sure we might have liked it but it wouldn't exactly work the same would it?

 

Also the NWO wouldn't have worked in WWE anyway. Yeah sure everyone hated Austin for running over Scott Hall on the Smackdown following No Way Out but did anyone really expect Austin, Rock, HHH, Undertaker, Angle, Kane and everyone else to sell them like WCW did? Hell no, why? Go back to #1, it was a one-time deal that worked in a company that Bischoff basically wanted to turn into WWE South anyway well before Russo jumped.

The WCW inVasion would have worked had they done the following things:

 

1. Waited until Hogan, Hall, Nash, Goldberg, Flair, Steiner and Bischoff debuted to actually start the angle.

 

2. Not merged the ECW wrestlers in with the WCW guys.

 

3. Let the WCW guys be dominant, get clean wins on big shows repeatedly, and end every show for a year or so with a big beatdown.

[Guest Loss]

Also, if people weren't interested in seeing the matches, why did the first PPV pop such a huge buyrate?

[Guest GreatOne]

First of all I didn't say people weren't interested in seeing the matches. They just wouldn't be interested in seeing "WCW" go over "WWE" especially after WCW just went out of business.

 

Second, why did WCW need to be dominant anyway? It's not like Nitro was a great show at the end of 98 (and especially from the Fingerpoke of Doom match on). Putting those guys over Rock, Austin, et al--especially since half are WWE hasbeens anyway is ass-backwards.

[Guest brethart]

First of all I didn't say people weren't interested in seeing the matches. They just wouldn't be interested in seeing "WCW" go over "WWE" especially after WCW just went out of business.

 

Second, why did WCW need to be dominant anyway? It's not like Nitro was a great show at the end of 98 (and especially from the Fingerpoke of Doom match on). Putting those guys over Rock, Austin, et al--especially since half are WWE hasbeens anyway is ass-backwards.

Sorry putting the WCW over at the start was the only way to make the angle work. They didnt it failed. It is as simple as that.

[Guest Repo Man Reborn]

I am just laughing at nikjohns preparing to drop the hammer on brethart for not making any points.

 

That's like Dusty Rhodes yelling at Stevie Ray for not making any sense.

 

 

 

 

And for my two cents, Bret Hart is slowly moving past Ric Flair with every match that Flair wrestles today.

[Detox 0]

i hope there is not a ledge near Storm with all the backpedaling he is doing

[Jobber of the Week 0]

Also the NWO wouldn't have worked in WWE anyway. Yeah sure everyone hated Austin for running over Scott Hall on the Smackdown following No Way Out but did anyone really expect Austin, Rock, HHH, Undertaker, Angle, Kane and everyone else to sell them like WCW did? Hell no, why? Go back to #1, it was a one-time deal that worked in a company that Bischoff basically wanted to turn into WWE South anyway well before Russo jumped.

It was working the first few nights.

 

The original three guys just needed to almost never wrestle. They should be a novelty, not a regular commodity. It was always clear that Hall/Nash/Hogan were charismatic guys who could build a heel stable, and so rather than run off and get Big Show and X-Pac and say "hey, remember this?" they should have just built a new NWO with the new names 9being Hogan and co) wrestling only on PPV.

 

Smarkism aside, a lot of fans were exploding to see Hulk Hogan in the WWF again. So what does a good business man do? You use him sparingly, leave them wanting more. Vince instead decided to give everyone what they wanted and immediately booked him against The Rock. Jesus, that should have been Hogan's endgame feud for when he was going to leave the promotion.

[AndrewTS 0]

Sounds sensible enough, so I don't know what he "backpeddled" on.

 

However, the whole Flair/Hart mess turned out to be another example of how pro wrestlers tend to act like children a lot.

[Guest Loss]

Loss, how would you rank some of those matches you listed?

 

Just wondering because I have heard of half of them and only seen about a third of them. I heard that '84 match with Steamboat was pretty good.

06/04/82 - Ric Flair v Ricky Steamboat

 

Good, but Flair and Steamboat would go on to have better matches. Flair was much more stoic in AJPW than he was in the US, so in terms of characterization, it's a different Flair/Steamboat than you're used to, but fundamentally, it's still a good match.

 

06/08/82 - Ric Flair v Jumbo Tsuruta

 

Another good match, but not one of their best matches. They'd have two far better matches in '83 and '85.

 

12/25/82 - Ric Flair v Kerry Von Erich

 

Not the best match, but incredibly historic, and a great bone to throw to the "Flair never did anything significant to make anyone" crowd. The two had a 2/3 falls match on 08/15/82 that saw Kerry come very close to winning the title and this match had been built up all year, with Kerry defeating Race to earn a title shot. Kerry comes out of this looking like the uncrowned champ. This led to a huge boom for WCCW that would last nearly three years.

 

06/08/83 - Ric Flair v Jumbo Tsuruta

 

Awesome match, perhaps among the best I've ever seen. Unfortunately, it's joined in progress 20 minutes in to the 60-minute draw, but the work that is here is outstanding. There are some breathtaking near falls and yet again, Jumbo looks like the uncrowned world champion, as he defeats Flair in one fall and holds him to a draw in the other.

 

12/25/83 - Ric Flair v David Von Erich

 

David was the best Von Erich, and it was Race and Flair who brought that out of him more than anyone. Another strong match.

 

05/29/84 - Ric Flair v Ricky Steamboat

 

The '89 series was better, but this one is superb. The headlockery would improve in their latter matches -- here, it's just a time killer. The final 10 minutes or so are as exciting as any US match has ever been.

 

04/23/85 - Ric Flair v Riki Choshu

 

I only mention this one because I've heard mixed reviews on it and it would be a good one to check out. I haven't seen this one myself actually.

 

04/24/85 - Ric Flair v Jumbo Tsuruta

 

Another strong match, although it's more of a testament to Jumbo than Flair, as he takes the Flair Formula about as far as one possibly can.

 

10/19/85 - Ric Flair v Rick Martel

 

Fast-paced and fun, and an example of Flair working a different type of match than his usual schtick. The best non-formula Flair match I've seen is probably this one, with his match with Brad Armstrong in August of '89 and almost all of the Garvin matches.

 

02/14/86 - Ric Flair v Barry Windham

 

Hands down, the best US match of 1986. These two really knew how to bring out the best in each other. Barry again looks like the uncrowned world champion. This is probably the second best match these two have ever had, with Crockett Cup taking top honors.

 

03/27/88 - Ric Flair v Sting

 

Not a great match, but a great performance. It's easy to forget that Sting was not a megastar headed into this match, but it was this that made his career.

 

07/10/88 - Ric Flair v Lex Luger

12/26/88 - Ric Flair v Lex Luger

 

Starrcade is sloppier, Bash is marred in bad booking. Again, not the best examples of Flair's work, but good matches to see if you want an example of him making his opponent look like a world beater.

 

02/20/89 - Ric Flair v Ricky Steamboat

03/18/89 - Ric Flair v Ricky Steamboat

 

The Chi-Town match is the most "fun" of the series, and I actually place it second behind the Clash match overall. ****1/2-ish. The house show match is even better, although those who don't like it when Flair gets over the top may be annoyed at times. What's key to remember when watching it though, is that it's a house show, so the exaggerations are needed.

 

08/??/89 - Ric Flair v Brad Armstrong

 

Really good mat work that serves to make both look good. This is the best example I know of of Flair making his opponent look great without giving him too much and knowing when to take control and when to let his opponent call the spots. The best example I've seen of Flair playing "the champ", if that makes sense.

 

12/02/89 - Ric Flair v Bobby Eaton

 

Good. That's about all I have to say about it.

 

02/17/90 - Ric Flair v Brian Pillman

 

Awesome TV match that yet again showed Pillman in a new light, as a wrestler who could hold the champ to the limit. Great mic work from both to set up the match. Some hot near falls toward the end, and all the moves are very crisp.

 

02/24/90 - Ric Flair v Lex Luger

 

Probably the best Flair/Luger match of the series with yet another bad finish. Flair gave Luger a few too many chances to try new things in the previous matches and Lex ended up looking a little nutty as a result. This is much more fluid, yet much less risky, and sees Luger transform from hated heel to loved babyface in quick fashion.

[godthedog 0]

this is the thread that doesn't end. yes, it goes on and on, my friend. some people started posting here, not knowing what it was. and they'll continue posting here forever, just because this is the thread that doesn't end.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

yes, it goes on and on, my friend.

 

 

 

 

oh yeah, points relevant to the discussion: i think it might help to pin a "rules of debate" page to kind of guide certain people to the magical world of rational thought. it really is a wonderful place to be, where everyone is smart and well-spoken and civil, and nobody has to repeat himself.

[Guest Loss]

Hey, I LOVE this thread. I hope it lasts forever.

[AlaskanHero 0]

Hey, I LOVE this thread. I hope it lasts forever.

If Ric Flair decides to fire a nasty comment back, it probably will last forever.

[Guest Repo Man Reborn]

Nothing last forever, even cold November releases of an album it took you ten years to make and is still not done.

 

 

Go ahead, move this to music.......I dare ya.

[Guest Loss]

Sometimes you need some time ... on your own.

 

[Guest Brian]

After reading what Meltzer said about Austin, I want to hear his take on the whole thing.

[Guest SteveyP93]

I'd agree that Bret's matches with Taker in 1997 were tremendous (and highly underrated)...I consider both One Night Only and SummerSlam to be ****+ matches...but to say that they were better than Hell in the Cell is just blasphemy. I do disagree with the person who said that Bret/Taker had no psychology...they had plenty of psychology, it just wasn't better than Hell in the Cell.

 

Bret also had one of his worst pay-per-view matches ever at the '96 Royal Rumble with Taker, so maybe that's the match you were thinking of.

 

And it is just me, or is Loss the only one here making some valid counter-arguments and not just being a big mark?

[King Cucaracha 0]

I dug out one of my old Coliseum Video tapes today...Invasion 1992, with (unsurprisingly, seeing as I'm posting in this thread) Bret Hart vs. Ric Flair. Pre Royal Rumble sometime...not sure if it's a match specifically spoken about in the article, although I don't think so as it ended in a cheap count-out.

 

Anyway...I can see why Bret doesn't like Flair. In the ring, they're chalk and cheese. Flair's 'comedy spots' did drag the match down and halt any flow the match had. Plus, the Flair Flop (or one of them, I think there were a couple) came off of a Bret headbutt. You could kinda see Bret getting frustrated at times, and even Perfect looked almost frustrated after a Flair Flop.

 

Also on the tape though, there's the Flair/Michaels match when Michaels was still a Rocker, and is so much better because Michaels wrestles the kind of flashy/fast-paced style that compliments Flair's usual doings.

 

To be honest, a high percentage of Bret's gripe with Flair may be a personal thing. And I don't mean that in an anti-Bret way. Bret's matches with Flair don't flow because their styles are at total parallels. Wrestlers like Michaels and Steamboat will probably paint a better picture of Flair because they are the workers that compliment Flair's style. So, rather than Flair being a 'horrible' worker, I think it's more he's a 'bad worker' compared to Bret's style.

 

Just my opinion.

[godthedog 0]

And it is just me, or is Loss the only one here making some valid counter-arguments and not just being a big mark?

no, there's others. you just see his name attached to every other post in the thread, so he's the one that really stays dominant in the mind.

I'd agree that Bret's matches with Taker in 1997 were tremendous (and highly underrated)...I consider both One Night Only and SummerSlam to be ****+ matches...but to say that they were better than Hell in the Cell is just blasphemy.

hell in a cell had a novel "anything can happen" aspect to it and had strokes of sheer brilliance, but bret's 'one night only' match holds up way better. hell in a cell had a strange, dragging, stop-start pace that kept me from being enthralled for the entire 40 minutes. they did big, crazy spots, but there was a lot of walking around & waiting inbetween those spots, throughout the match. and shawn's selling is REALLY goofy. there's a point where they're brawling outside, undertaker punches shawn in the face once, and shawn flies back four feet, lands on his back, rolls through, and ends up on his stomach, like he's the rock selling a stunner. his selling of the fall off the cage and such was fine, but little stuff like that is bothersome.

[Gert T 0]

Thanks Loss, I guess the argument of "Wrestler X making Wrestler Y better" or "Wrestler X using Wrestler Y to make himself look better" is subjective, but I did love how Flair would wrestle many different opponents at Clash's etc.

 

At the same time I also think Bret's work in 94-95 with a variety of opponents was great too.