Bret Hart responds to Ric Flair's comments

[Promoter 0]

If anyone was killed coming out of it it was Michaels--who got the Jericho treatment throughout nearly his entire run.

Did you remember the marketing behind Michaels the night after Survivor Series? He came out on raw and basically said he RAN BRET out of the wwe and sent him down south for his friends to finish the job. If anything we got the heel HBK everybody was asking for as champion instead of that boyhood dream propaganda in 1996. He got one over on Owen Hart on free television. He went over Undertaker at Rumble(stupid finish regardless) and was proclaimed as the icon who could still go who ran off nWo members Hall and Nash. HBK even mixed it up almost with Mike Tyson. Jericho's reign was nowhere close to HBK's DX reign as champion. There were reports of people jumping barricades with the heat HBK had then(which is why I always say HHH is still behind HBK in the big scheme of things). A couple of riots even occurred when he teased not giving the match people paid for and telling the crowd he was not gay and would show them by picking a women in the crowd. HBK title reign does not=Jericho's joke of a reign in 2002. Hell, HBK even dissed Mcmahon's endrosement of him retaining prior to WM 14 against Austin saying he was so great he didn't need his approval. Another thing to consider is this...Kurt Angle who won an Olympic gold medal is/was determined to get Bret back for one match, so he can be called the greatest of all-time in the business by working with him. He hasn't gone to Vince about doing a match with Flair which would be much easier to do.

[SuperJerk 0]

Yeah, and it took him how long? I wouldn't believe one word that came out of that man's mouth.

He fessed up in 2002, after his religious conversion.

[Guest GreatOne]

If anyone was killed coming out of it it was Michaels--who got the Jericho treatment throughout nearly his entire run.

Did you remember the marketing behind Michaels the night after Survivor Series? He came out on raw and basically said he RAN BRET out of the wwe and sent him down south for his friends to finish the job. If anything we got the heel HBK everybody was asking for as champion instead of that boyhood dream propaganda in 1996. He got one over on Owen Hart on free television. He went over Undertaker at Rumble(stupid finish regardless) and was proclaimed as the icon who could still go who ran off nWo members Hall and Nash. HBK even mixed it up almost with Mike Tyson. Jericho's reign was nowhere close to HBK's DX reign as champion. There were reports of people jumping barricades with the heat HBK had then(which is why I always say HHH is still behind HBK in the big scheme of things). A couple of riots even occurred when he teased not giving the match people paid for and telling the crowd he was not gay and would show them by picking a women in the crowd. HBK title reign does not=Jericho's joke of a reign in 2002.

1)Jericho occasionally last year made references to beating Rock and Austin on the same night, he still mentions in his promos being the frist UN-DIS-P-U-TED champion so your point?

 

2)So he was the one who "ran off Hall and Nash", yet the same two are his buddies who will finish Bret off in WCW, ok................

 

3)Considering that Owen was being booked slowly down the crapper between the beginning of 98 and the Nation, beating him meant about as much as Jericho's "successful defenses" against Maven and Tazz.

 

4)He "went over" Bret thanks to Vince; "went over" Shamrock when HHH and Chyna interfered while he was getting his ankle snapped; "went over" Taker cause of Kane; and even after getting Tyson in DX, everything thereon was basically centered around Austin/Vince--thereby rendering the two times he attacked Austin prior to Mania as meaningful as Jericho getting HHH on both the RAW and SD before WMX8. Isn't this the kind of booking that everybody's crying foul with Benoit right now?

 

Hell Benoit's actually gone over clean more times than Michaels did in that reign.

[SuperJerk 0]

HBK didn't have Stephanie killing his heat, though.

[Promoter 0]

1)Jericho occasionally last year made references to beating Rock and Austin on the same night, he still mentions in his promos being the frist UN-DIS-P-U-TED champion so your point?

 

2)So he was the one who "ran off Hall and Nash", yet the same two are his buddies who will finish Bret off in WCW, ok................

 

3)Considering that Owen was being booked slowly down the crapper between the beginning of 98 and the Nation, beating him meant about as much as Jericho's "successful defenses" against Maven and Tazz.

 

4)He "went over" Bret thanks to Vince; "went over" Shamrock when HHH and Chyna interfered while he was getting his ankle snapped; "went over" Taker cause of Kane; and even after getting Tyson in DX, everything thereon was basically centered around Austin/Vince--thereby rendering the two times he attacked Austin prior to Mania as meaningful as Jericho getting HHH on both the RAW and SD before WMX8. Isn't this the kind of booking that everybody's crying foul with Benoit right now?

 

Hell Benoit's actually gone over clean more times than Michaels did in that reign.

1)Jericho defeating Rock and Austin is not believable to the masses. He looked like a fluke all times he faced them and got the win. Look at his promo against Rock where he was crying for people to take him serious prior to the Royal Rumble. Jericho was a joke as a champion and some say he shouldn't have even been undisputed champ to begin with. HBK's "victories" were tainted yes, but in a heel fashion. The fans did not believe he didn't deserve to retain his title because he wasn't main event material. He was unlike Jericho who just seemed out of his league as champion.

 

HBK beat Nash at full strength at Good friends Better Enemies before heading to wcw. HBK also won the last ladder match between himself and Hall which was apart of his build up to his world title victory in 1996. The two scenarios are treated differently in kayfabe. HBK was bragging about beating the two men who fathered the revolutionary nWo and even hinted he was the real leader. Back then that kind of thing was "hot" because people were into worked shoots at the time(as some people believed Hall and Nash were working for Vince).

 

2)The wwe alluded to the Kliq the night after Badd Bloodd where HBK showed the MSG curtain call clip on the titantron. Again, back then that stuff was taboo. In kayfabe that happened after he beat them in singles matches. He stated that the break up of the Kliq shouldn't be confused with actual expansion of the Kliq to wcw and down south. That is where the "finish you off" comment was based off.

 

3)When HBK faced off against Owen Hart, he was being given a push. It was even rumoured he was going to headline against HBK at the Royal Rumble. Owen was billed as the last surviving member of the Hart Foundation when he went up against HBK on television. HBK didn't get upended by the avenging brother. It can be argued Owen Hart was actually a fit for the Nation as the "black hart" looking for a new family. He was still feuding with DX up until Mania and turned heel after saying enough is enough. Owen was still decently pushed.

 

4)Yes, he went over thanks to Vince which made him the most hated man for being apart of the biggest controversy over a title match ever. He went over Shamrock who was billed as the world's strongest man because of his UFC background. I think Vince liked the idea of his wwf champ going over a former UFC champion just for marketing reasons. He went over Taker because of Kane because Taker is a monster. HBK has never defeated Taker one on one without help. Remember he won the cell match with Kane's help too? The month prior to that he couldn't get a victory over him either at the September ppv.

You are also forgetting that HBK was having back pain and that was the reason for his lack of involvement and the wwe being wise to build Austin/Vince. They were saving HBK for Mania and preventing any further chance of damage to his back. In other words, Vince was "protecting his investment" of the WrestleMania MAIN EVENT that was getting mainstream press because of Mike Tyson. How Jericho undisputed champ and lap dog for Stephanie Mcmahon can compare to that?

[godthedog 0]

 

I don't think Mr. Five Moves Of Doom has any right to be talking about somebody else having the same spots in a match.

Everybody does the same base moves in a match. Everyone.

 

The difference between Flair and Bret is this

 

Flair wrestled almost the same exact way against everyone no matter who they were. It was a pattern that was fool proof in having a good match. THe only problem was he smothered some opponents by not letting them bring possable good elements to a match. He worked hard in the ring as well.

 

Bret used the same moves a lot of the time just like everyone else but the key was he didn't always wrestle the same match. Bret was very smart in the ring and knew what to do and when to do it. He could construct stories in matches, play off of previous matches, build a bout and have lots of subtle stuff in a match. Bret's matches hold up so well not just because he had a great moveset, sold well or executed his manuevers excellently but because there are just so many little things Bret did in his stuff that make people remember them so fondly. I could go on forever just about that alone. That is versatility and that is great physology which is why 20 years from now people will still be drooling over Bret's matches.

we have a winner.

 

the "5 moves of doom" spot does not equal OMG HE ALWAYZ WRESTLED THE SAME MATCH~!!! bret could, and did, wrestle different types of matches, and i've seen far more versatility in his body of work than i have in flair's. his summerslam match with davey was very different from his IC title win against piper earlier that year. it was different from his world title defense against shawn michaels later that year. it was different from his wrestlemania match with owen 2 years later. it was different from his IYH match with davey 3 years later, and different from his matches with diesel. it was different from his survivor series match with austin (which, in turn, was different from his wrestlemania bout with austin).

 

i could go on.

[Promoter 0]

You got a point there godthedog

[geniusMoment 0]

They both have had so many good matches I just cannot believe either of them are anything less than great workers. They each have flaws, but no one is perfect. Not Austin, Hogan, Flair, Race, Bret, HBK or anyone else. They both were apart of events that drew big crowds, they both headed up their promotions at various times and neither drew money like Hogan or Austin. Those are all facts. I do not understand why so many of you seem to be on one side of the fence or the other, they both were good performers in my opinion. I have never heard so many smarks criticize Bret and Flair, I feel like I am in some alternate universe. Sure Flairs matches looked alike but I think many of them were damn good matches. Sure Bret was not the most charismatic guy, but I think he could still deliver a damn good money promo.

 

Let me put it to you this way, I would take a 91-94 bret or a 87-89 Flair as the lead in my promotion over anyone wrestling today.

[Promoter 0]

geniusMoment you also make some good points. Especially, the one about this being an alternate universe where Hart and Flair are getting attacked because of their workrate. Hart and Flair!!!!, while we got people like JBL as WWE Champ

[Dangerous A 0]

Sounds like 2 old farts bitching about their fake fighting legacies. It's kind of pathetic when I have to tell 2 grown men, one in his late forties, the other in his late fifties, to...

 

GROW THE FUCK UP!!

 

I wouldn't doubt if they(Hart and Flair) are working you fucking people to try to drum up more book sales.

[NoCalMike 0]

I wouldn't doubt if they(Hart and Flair) are working you fucking people to try to drum up more book sales.

"you fucking people" ?

 

Whadda ya mean "you fucking people"

 

RACIST RACIST BIGOT BIGOT......BAN PLZ~!

 

Just kidding.......

[Jobber of the Week 0]

I guess Mach was right, he IS a mark for his own character. HHH ain't got SHIT on him.

Fun fact: Bret once complained that Goldberg "reads too much of his own PR."

 

 

 

If irony was an ice cream, I'd be asking you if you wanted chocolate or butterscotch RIGHT NOW.

[Guest Anticrombie]

Fun fact: Bret once complained that Goldberg "reads too much of his own PR."

 

 

 

If irony was an ice cream, I'd be asking you if you wanted chocolate or butterscotch RIGHT NOW.

Some more fun facts: Shawn has called Bret a mark for himself in the past, and Flair said Bret could be the president of his own fan club.

 

Let's both have some ice cream RIGHT NOW, I want chocolate.

[MrRant 0]

Butterscotch ice cream?

 

They make that?

[Guest Anticrombie]

Find me a consistent headliner who wasn't a mark for himself, and I'll make some for you.

[Guest Dynamite Kido]

He made Lex Luger.

He made Barry Windham.

Heck, he made Ricky Steamboat in the 70's.

He made Piper.

He made Morton look like a world beater.

He made Nikita Koloff look like a passable worker.

He TOTALLY put over the Giant.

He made Ted DiBiase.

He made the entire Von Erich clan.

He made Magnum T.A

Hell, he made Terry Funk into a contender YEARS after people wrote him off.

 

That's more than anybody else can begin to lay claims to.

Yeah Flair was such a amazing draw. Thats why the NWA early WCW was kicking BUTT in the ratings war. That is why Vince kept him around for years after he came to the WWF. OPPS, my mistake. I see nothing but empty arena when Flair pefroms

Do you REALLY want to attack Flair's drawing power, considering how poorly Bret drew as WWF Champ and as WCW Champ?

 

I could be cruel and mention that his departure was the biggest reason for the WWF's resurgence.

Flair overstayed his welcome when the focus should've been on Sting. Also he is a lying son of a bitch. Rember the last Nitro? Flair goes on about how great WCW is. Then on his DVD he bashes WCW. I cant take anyone who acts like that at there word.

He didn't praise the company. He praised the wrestlers. Flair and WCW had not been friendly for many years --- and if Bret was treated as shabbily as Flair was, he would have been less pleasant than that.

Also i am pissed off, and bitter Funk submitted to one figgure four leg lock. I mean the move no one tapped too, and Funk submitted.

Funk was a non-entity on the nat'l stage until Flair made him a star all over again. In 1988-89, NOBODY in America thought about Terry Funk as a ME-level worker in the States.

 

Bret Hart made Razor Ramon --- but you can argue that he did more to hold back Shawn Michaels than anybody else.

 

And who in the world would rate the ME of Canadian Stampede as a ***** affair? A hot crowd does not mean a match is good.

-=Mike

Mike here we go again with you blindly missing facts.

 

First off he didn't single handedly make Luger.....there were others involved.

 

Windham? Are you kidding me? Flair says in his own book that he was excited that Windham was going to be in the Horseman because of how great a wrestler he was.

 

Flair made Ricky Steamboat in the 70's? Where are your facts that prove this one?

 

Piper? WTF? Are you kidding me again? Then why would his Dog Collar match with Greg Valentine overshadow ALL his work with Flair? Not just in my eyes either.......

 

Ricky Morton made Flair look great, not the other way around. I admit Flair helped in their fued together, but let's be honest......teenage girls and the Midnight's had more to do with "making" his career than Flair ever did.

 

lots of guys made Nikita look like a passable worker so your point here is invalid.

 

He did put over the Giant, but Flair was a joke at that point in his career anyway. So once again, your point is invalid.

 

If you think he made Dibiase......nevermind....I don't even know how you would come up with that.

 

Flair didn't make the Von Erich's either......Texas and their daddy did that.

 

Magnum T.A.'s popularity had more to do with Dusty Rhodes than it did with Flair.

 

Terry Funk was capable of making HIMSELF into a credible contender....without Flair. The feud was amazing though.....

 

So I think you are laying a little too much credit on Flair shoulders for these things.........

[godthedog 0]

mick foley.

[bobobrazil1984 0]

So, did Flair, in his infamous rants, actually rant against somebody IN WWE at the moment? (Foley aside, even he isn't really in WWE at the moment).

 

Or did he only choose those who are politically convenient?

[Guest Dynamite Kido]

So, did Flair, in his infamous rants, actually rant against somebody IN WWE at the moment? (Foley aside, even he isn't really in WWE at the moment).

 

Or did he only choose those who are politically convenient?

I haven't read the entire thing yet, but so far I am at about ch 10 and I'd say no.

[Guest Anticrombie]

mick foley.

What about Mick Foley, my good man?

[Guest MikeSC]

Mike here we go again with you blindly missing facts. 

 

First off he didn't single handedly make Luger.....there were others involved.

Ric Flair MADE him look like a possible World Champion.

Windham?  Are you kidding me?  Flair says in his own book that he was excited that Windham was going to be in the Horseman because of how great a wrestler he was.

And before their run in 1987 --- you know, when Windham became a ME-level performer --- Barry was little more than a good tag wrestler.

Flair made Ricky Steamboat in the 70's?  Where are your facts that prove this one?

Flair jobbing the Mid-Atlantic TV Title to him in Steamboat's first match in the region, immediately making him a name in the territory. Rick Steamboat was hardly a well-known commodity before then.

Piper?  WTF?  Are you kidding me again?  Then why would his Dog Collar match with Greg Valentine overshadow ALL his work with Flair?  Not just in my eyes either.......

Because it was his work with Flair BEFORE that that made him a national star. You seem to put more emphasis on his "most famous matches" (and, honestly, his work with Flair owned his work with Valentine) rather than the work that "put him over on a national basis".

Ricky Morton made Flair look great, not the other way around.  I admit Flair helped in their fued together, but let's be honest......teenage girls and the Midnight's had more to do with "making" his career than Flair ever did.

No, Flair making Morton look like he COULD beat the World Champ made that excellent series of matches work.

 

BTW, for those who claim Flair's matches were cookie-cutter, please, explain the similarities in Flair v Morton, Flair v Steamboat, Flair v Luger, and Flair v Funk --- because I ain't seein' em.

lots of guys made Nikita look like a passable worker so your point here is invalid.

Flair was the guy who carried him --- almost literally --- at Bash 1985 when Koloff was the most insanely green worker on the planet --- and made him look like a God.

He did put over the Giant, but Flair was a joke at that point in his career anyway.  So once again, your point is invalid.

Flair let Giant squash him in a way World Champs seldom allow basically rookies to squash them.

If you think he made Dibiase......nevermind....I don't even know how you would come up with that.

Re-watch their stuff in Mid-South.

Flair didn't make the Von Erich's either......Texas and their daddy did that.

And Flair made them big NATIONALLY. Is it really this hard to follow? He carried Kerry to matches that were significantly better than anything Kery did. He made Kevin look like a million bucks --- no small feat. He made David into a superstar.

 

And, yes, Ric Flair did ALL of that.

Magnum T.A.'s popularity had more to do with Dusty Rhodes than it did with Flair.

Yeah, THAT is exactly why Magnum got over. Because of Dusty. Sure.

Terry Funk was capable of making HIMSELF into a credible contender....without Flair.  The feud was amazing though.....

If he was capable --- why didn't he? Why was it Flair who did it?

So I think you are laying a little too much credit on Flair shoulders for these things.........

And you're giving him NONE, which is f'n absurd.

 

Just because he criticized an IWC sacred cow does not take away what he did.

mick foley.

Was a total mark for himself.

So, did Flair, in his infamous rants, actually rant against somebody IN WWE at the moment? (Foley aside, even he isn't really in WWE at the moment).

 

Or did he only choose those who are politically convenient?

Who WOULD he trash in the WWE presently, since few of them were even active for a nice chunk of his career? He unloaded on EB and ripped Hogan --- who is always a threat to return.

-=Mike

[BHK 0]

I could be cruel and mention that his departure was the biggest reason for the WWF's resurgence.

 

If Bret would have stayed retained the title at SS and thereafter, the heat surrounding Hart/Austin blowoff at Wrestlemania XIV would have made the crowd during Rock.Hogan look like a joke.

 

They could have had AUstin go thorugh the entire Hart Foundation at the December-February PPvs, all just to get to hart. It would have been Brilliant.

 

Bret would have single handedly over a period of two years given the biggest rub possible to a man that would become the biggest star in the business since Hogan.

 

Not to mention that judging by two previous encounters it could have been the greatest match in US history.

[The Mandarin 0]

So, did Flair, in his infamous rants, actually rant against somebody IN WWE at the moment? (Foley aside, even he isn't really in WWE at the moment).

 

Or did he only choose those who are politically convenient?

I haven't read the entire thing yet, but so far I am at about ch 10 and I'd say no.

Scott Steiner and Eric Bischoff are two that come to mind.

[Guest MikeSC]

If Bret would have stayed retained the title at SS and thereafter, the heat surrounding Hart/Austin blowoff at Wrestlemania XIV would have made the crowd during Rock.Hogan look like a joke.

Except that Bret was already not the most over heel in the company by this point. Heat would've been hurt noticeably by then.

They could have had AUstin go thorugh the entire Hart Foundation at the December-February PPvs, all just to get to hart. It would have been Brilliant.

Austin v Neidhart would've been a good PPV match?

Bret would have single handedly over a period of two years given the biggest rub possible to a man that would become the biggest star in the business since Hogan.

Who's to say he would've done the job? He never did the job to him before.

Not to mention that judging by two previous encounters it could have been the greatest match  in US history.

Their THIRD PPV encounter was nothing special.

-=Mike

[Guest Bad Brad Jacobs]

half the people who posted in this thread might as well just go find flair or hart and suck them off because you all seem like experts at doing it verbally.

 

 

who cares who was better or who used more self promotion or who cut a better promo or whatever?

 

 

 

if you enjoyed one person's work over another's, thats good. that is what being a fan of wrestling is about. but good luck trying to convince someone else to accept your opinions, esspecially in a message board like this. maybe if we were in public and an ass beating was on the line, people would be a little less likely to bicker so much.

 

i say they were both great, but who knows? now that i've said that, somebody will probly come out of the woodwork saying neither of them could work just so they can have the most unlikely opinion. it seems like that is the trend here.

[geniusMoment 0]

Mike the one point of yours that I disagree with the most is the point about Terry Funk. If you are talking about their feud in 1989 I think Funk carried his end just fine, I do not think Flair carried him through the feud. Its not like after the feud Funk was a huge name and went on to do great things, after the feud he was pretty much in the same position he was always in. I think it is disrespectful to say Flair made Terry Funk, I think Funk had enough talent that he would always rise to the top. Hell, some of the best ideas during their feud were Funks, such as bagging Rics head. Flair admits in his book he patterned himself after Funk in many ways, such as holding the ropes while delivering chops. I am not saying Funk carried Flair either, I feel it was one of those feuds where each man deserved their respective spot and each man helped each other.

I believe you also put Bret Hart on the list. Flair hardly made Bret. Flair grudgingly put over Bret because Vince told him to, the match at Wembley and Piper made Bret a bigger star than the match no one saw against Flair. If all it took to "make" someone was to drop the title to them there would be hundreds main event level people today.

[Guest MikeSC]

Mike the one point of yours that I disagree with the most is the point about Terry Funk. If you are talking about their feud in 1989 I think Funk carried his end just fine, I do not think Flair carried him through the feud. Its not like after the feud Funk was a huge name and went on to do great things, after the feud he was pretty much in the same position he was always in. I think it is disrespectful to say Flair made Terry Funk, I think Funk had enough talent that he would always rise to the top. Hell, some of the best ideas during their feud were Funks, such as bagging Rics head. Flair admits in his book he patterned himself after Funk in many ways, such as holding the ropes while delivering chops. I am not saying Funk carried Flair either, I feel it was one of those feuds where each man deserved their respective spot and each man helped each other.

I believe you also put Bret Hart on the list. Flair hardly made Bret. Flair grudgingly put over Bret because Vince told him to, the match at Wembley and Piper made Bret a bigger star than the match no one saw against Flair. If all it took to "make" someone was to drop the title to them there would be hundreds main event level people today.

GM, when the feud STARTED, where was Funk in the eyes of American fans? He was a non-entity, last seen in the WWF doing comedy tag matches.

 

I'm not saying Flair made Funk a good worker. Funk was quite good before Flair even debuted. I'm saying Flair made Funk a star after 1989.

-=Mike

[Guest Loss]

Maybe, but perhaps the "trend" here should be acknowledging that they both had strengths, they both had weaknesses, they both made good points and they're both insane. This is far too complex an issue to take sides on, so the only thing I can suggest is that we comb through it all and disseminate the wheat from the chaff.

 

As for DiBiase, Flair didn't make him a star, but he worked an angle and match with him that turned him from the company's lead heel into the company's most over babyface within the span of a one-hour TV show.

 

In order to appreciate a lot that Flair accomplished, you have to understand the differences between the NWA World Champion and the World champs we see today. It's night and day. It was the champ's job to create an aura around themselves and travel around to the territories, alternating between face and heel as necessary, escaping by the skin of their teeth with their title intact. Flair did this masterfully.

 

As for Piper and Steamboat, Flair definitely did a lot to get them over and turn them into stars. However, so much of it happened prior to pay-per-view and national television, which is why it has gone overlooked. If not for Flair, the WWF never would have been interested in either guy, because each made his name in feuds with Flair.

 

This thread proves, once and for all, that there's a huge difference between jobbing to someone and putting them over, and some will never understand that. Flair didn't put Luger over, so he ruined him right? Well, perhaps he should have put him over the way Nash did Rey Misterio.

 

There is more to just about everything than face value.

[geniusMoment 0]

Funk was seem in a higher light during their feud in 1989 because Flair and him were in main events But, after the feud he was viewed as a Texas legend, the same as before. During the feud with the main eventer basically everyone is looked at in a higher light, it is just natural.

 

But back to the point, I assume then you are saying Flair helped "remake" funk not make him, am I correct?

[Guest Loss]

I think that's exactly what he's saying. And I think that's valid.