The early 2004 "classics"

[Tawren 0]

Looking at some early 2004 WWE cards, I have compiled a list of the matches that many people here at TSM considered ****+ at the time:

 

-2004 Royal Rumble

-Eddie Guerrero vs Brock Lesnar (No Way Out)

-Jamie Noble vs Paul London (Velocity)

-Kurt Angle vs Eddie Guerrero (WrestleMania)

-Triple H vs Chris Benoit vs Shawn Micheals (WrestleMania)

-Eddie Guerrero vs Rey Misterio (Smackdown gauntlet final)

-Triple H vs Shelton Benjamin (Raw - the first upset)

-Mick Foley vs Randy Orton (Backlash)

-Triple H vs Chris Benoit vs Shawn Micheals (Backlash)

-Chris Benoit vs Shawn Micheals (Raw: Showdown in the Desert)

 

So I'm wondering, is there anybody who still considers these to be classic or really good matches? Aside from Guerrero/Lesnar, London/Noble, and Guerrero/Misterio, all of which I really liked (***1/4-***1/2 each), I don't think any of the above matches were all that good.

 

Now that we have some distance from them and can be a little more objective, do we like these matches more? Less? The same? Were there any better, forgotten matches from early 2004?

[bob_barron 0]

I still watch the three-way all the time and I still get goosebumps and start marking out towards the end. Still a great match and one I'm still honoured to have seen live.

 

The Royal Rumble also still holds up really well. A couple of slow parts but the gong, Foley's return and everything from Goldberg-finish is still tons of fun.

 

And yes- I still laugh at The Cat

[Guest The Shadow Behind You]

When all is said and done, The Triple Threat Match at Mania is the only real "Classic". It'll still be remembered 10 years from now like Bret/Owen is today. The rest were great or really good matches but by no means..."Classics".

 

For me, I've only seen two Classic matches this year

The Triple Threat Match and Samoa Joe/CM PUNK PT. 1 (and yet to seen pt. 2 and that's sad to be even better).

[Guest Rrrsh]

-2004 Royal Rumble

It was a good Rumble, maybe even great. But it wasnt the best ever, and it wasn't tremendous

 

-Eddie Guerrero vs Brock Lesnar (No Way Out)

It wasnt a classic like orginally stated, but it is defiantly a match that can be rewatched with delight

 

-Jamie Noble vs Paul London (Velocity)

Too short to be remembered

 

-Kurt Angle vs Eddie Guerrero (WrestleMania)

Very overrated. Their 2 outta 3 falls match was better, IMO.

 

-Triple H vs Chris Benoit vs Shawn Micheals (WrestleMania)

A true classic

 

-Eddie Guerrero vs Rey Misterio (Smackdown gauntlet final)

Pales in comparison to their first match Classic back in 97. Overrated by most.

 

-Triple H vs Shelton Benjamin (Raw - the first upset)

Fun match, veyr easy to rewatch. Just not spectacular.

 

-Mick Foley vs Randy Orton (Backlash)

Another Classic. Will be remember liked HHH-Foley is now in 5 years.

 

-Triple H vs Chris Benoit vs Shawn Micheals (Backlash)

If done 6 months later, would be viewed a lot better. It was two close to the orginal to be considered a Classic.

 

-Chris Benoit vs Shawn Micheals (Raw: Showdown in the Desert)

Good TV match, but not as good as HHH/HBK match was in December.

[Guest Coffey]

The only matches on there that I like are the Wrestlemania 3-Way and Eddie/Lesnar.

 

EDIT: I'd say the Shawn Michaels/Triple H/Chris Benoit Wrestlemania 3-Way was at least ****. Easily.

[Guest LooneyTune]

-2004 Royal Rumble

Hard to remember this one, sinc eI havent watched it in a while.

 

-Eddie Guerrero vs Brock Lesnar (No Way Out)

I don't think it was any higher than ***.

 

-Jamie Noble vs Paul London (Velocity)

Didn't see.

 

-Kurt Angle vs Eddie Guerrero (WrestleMania)

***1/2 about, but I wouldn't call it classic.

 

-Triple H vs Chris Benoit vs Shawn Micheals (WrestleMania)

Not *****, but still great.

 

-Eddie Guerrero vs Rey Misterio (Smackdown gauntlet final)

No higher than *** I thought. I can't get into TV matches.

 

-Triple H vs Shelton Benjamin (Raw - the first upset)

About **1/2-*** No way a classic, especially considering they did nothing with Shelton right after.

 

-Mick Foley vs Randy Orton (Backlash)

Good Brawl, but not a great match. It had a good 1st time appeal, but further viewings shows the flaws.

 

-Triple H vs Chris Benoit vs Shawn Micheals (Backlash)

Same Match as WM XX it felt like, so less rating for it, but still good.

 

-Chris Benoit vs Shawn Micheals (Raw: Showdown in the Desert)

Good TV Match, but felt a little flat considering the workers in it.

[Dark Age 0]

-Jamie Noble vs Paul London (Velocity)

Too short to be remembered

 

What?!? Have you even SEEN the match in question? It went, if I recall, 12-15 minutes. That's more than enough time. And in that time, they did more than most guys do in 30.

 

-Kurt Angle vs Eddie Guerrero (WrestleMania)

Very overrated. Their 2 outta 3 falls match was better, IMO.

 

I actually think it's pretty underrated. Despite the butchering of the Ankle Lock (what's new?), I think it's a really strong match. But yeah, you're right, the 2/3 Falls is really good as well. As was their SS match.

 

-2004 Royal Rumble

It was a good Rumble, maybe even great. But it wasnt the best ever, and it wasn't tremendous

 

I'd say it was the best Rumble. What's better? 92?

 

-Eddie Guerrero vs Brock Lesnar (No Way Out)

It wasnt a classic like orginally stated, but it is defiantly a match that can be rewatched with delight

 

MOTY so far. Cut out the Goldberg bit (but it doesn't lose much with it, IMO) and you're left with one of the best WWE matches of the past few years.

 

-Triple H vs Chris Benoit vs Shawn Micheals (WrestleMania)

A true classic

 

Agreed. But Brock/Eddie was better.

 

-Eddie Guerrero vs Rey Misterio (Smackdown gauntlet final)

Pales in comparison to their first match Classic back in 97. Overrated by most.

 

It was always going to. This isn't 97 anymore, and nothing these two do together will top their HH match. But this was still very good.

 

-Triple H vs Shelton Benjamin (Raw - the first upset)

Fun match, veyr easy to rewatch. Just not spectacular.

 

Great story told, did alot to make Shelton a star. They just never followed up on it. Good match.

 

-Mick Foley vs Randy Orton (Backlash)

Another Classic. Will be remember liked HHH-Foley is now in 5 years.

 

It's an okay brawl. Not as good as it seemed, but it's pretty fun. But Triple H/Cactus it is not.

 

-Triple H vs Chris Benoit vs Shawn Micheals (Backlash)

If done 6 months later, would be viewed a lot better. It was two close to the orginal to be considered a Classic.

 

I preferred Mania.

 

-Chris Benoit vs Shawn Micheals (Raw: Showdown in the Desert)

Good TV match, but not as good as HHH/HBK match was in December.

 

I can't even remember this match. I do remember one little thing that irked me, though, and that being when both guys go for their top rope moves. Shawn hits a bodyslam to set up the elbow, but then hits another so that he's sure Benoit will stay down. He does. Benoit hits three German suplexes, then adds another to keep Shawn down. But misses the headbutt. That just seemed kinda bad to me.

 

 

 

I just got to add, for some REAL good WWE matches this year:

 

Kurt Angle vs Eddie Guerrero (2/3 Falls and SummerSlam)

Chris Benoit vs Randy Orton (Raw and SS)

Kurt Angle vs Rey Mysterio (SD)

Paul London vs Billy Kidman (NM)

Paul London vs Nunzio (Velocity earlier this year)

 

Any opinions on these matches?

[Guest bigm350]

So do you guys think that the WM XX Triple threat will be mentioned in the same breath as Bret-Owen from WM X a few years from now?

[Guest Dynamite Kido]

-2004 Royal Rumble - This one still holds up as a classic Royal Rumble. Not a classic match, but a classic Royal Rumble(IMO, none of the are great matches at all........and most don't hold up after time, but this one will)......plus, Benoit winning makes it memorable to me.

 

-Eddie Guerrero vs Brock Lesnar (No Way Out) - I still like this match as well. It may have been overrated if it's over **** though. That's the highest I could give it on rewatching it. Still a really good match.

 

-Jamie Noble vs Paul London (Velocity) - Honestly, I haven't seen this one since it aired. I don't have it on tape so.................no comment.

 

-Kurt Angle vs Eddie Guerrero (WrestleMania) - This match I must admit I overrated in my first watching for sure. But it's definately a ****+ match.

 

-Triple H vs Chris Benoit vs Shawn Micheals (WrestleMania) - The emotion of this one is outstanding and all three of the competitors tell a decent story. IMO, this is the WWE match of the year at this point.

 

-Eddie Guerrero vs Rey Misterio (Smackdown gauntlet final) - Good but not great. Glad that they did it, but this match would have been better off with more time on PPV. I'm still shocked that they haven't fought on PPV this year yet.......

 

-Triple H vs Shelton Benjamin (Raw - the first upset) - Awesome ending and an overall very good match. I didn't think it was over **** then and I still wouldn't rate it higher than ***1/2.

 

-Mick Foley vs Randy Orton (Backlash) - This match I will stand by original rating of ****1/4. Foley did a great job in this one and I honestly think that Foley did the best job of getting Orton over as a "star". Too bad they did a horrible job of following up on it and having Orton drop the title after beating Benoit for it really hurt Orton IMO. So kudos to Foley, this was a great WWE match for this year.

 

-Triple H vs Chris Benoit vs Shawn Micheals (Backlash) - This one will always fall short because it simply was a good match. Kinda like the Wrestlemania one would have been without all the anticipation and emotion that it had. Still a good match, but not over ****.......

 

-Chris Benoit vs Shawn Micheals (Raw: Showdown in the Desert) - Good match and still not over ****. One of the best, but not the best.......

[Guest Real F'n Show]

-2004 Royal Rumble

I liked this a tad better than 92, thus making it the best Rumble ever IMO.

 

-Eddie Guerrero vs Brock Lesnar (No Way Out)

The US match of the year hands down. One of my favorite matches, the only thing that comes close to surpassing it Danielson/Homicide from ROH Reborn Stage 2

 

-Jamie Noble vs Paul London (Velocity)

Definately underrated as not many people have seen it. I'm lucky enough to have it on tape, and consider it a **** match.

 

-Kurt Angle vs Eddie Guerrero (WrestleMania)

Like someone said earlier, the 2/3 falls match is better, but this is still a great match. Nothing blowaway, and not even the 2nd best match on the card (the threeway, and evolution tag were both better IMO)

 

-Triple H vs Chris Benoit vs Shawn Micheals (WrestleMania)

The second best match in WWE this year. The drama and excitement of this match are incredible.

 

-Eddie Guerrero vs Rey Misterio (Smackdown gauntlet final)

This was good, but nothing close to the Havoc match (what is?). I really wish they hadn't botched the backflip DDT spot, but still probably Smackdown's TV MOTY.

 

-Triple H vs Shelton Benjamin (Raw - the first upset)

I honestly don't remember this being all that good. Decent at best, but I'll rewatch it.

 

-Mick Foley vs Randy Orton (Backlash)

Great match, sick bumps, good drama, the match that made Orton a star.

 

-Triple H vs Chris Benoit vs Shawn Micheals (Backlash)

Although it doesn't have the drama of the Mania match, workrate wise, this match is just as good, if not better. Overshadowed by the Mania match for that reason, but still a **** match.

 

-Chris Benoit vs Shawn Micheals (Raw: Showdown in the Desert)

Raw's TV MOTY thus far, hurt only by commercials and a shitty finish. Better than their previous Raw match.

 

Kurt Angle vs Eddie Guerrero (2/3 Falls and SummerSlam)

The 2/3 falls was probably the best Eddie/Angle match, while Summerslam was probably worst (but still not bad by a long shot). ***3/4 fo the 2/3 falls, ***1/4 for the Summerslam match.

 

Chris Benoit vs Randy Orton (Raw and SS)

I liked the Raw match better, as Benoit was more pissed off and just beat the hell out of Orton. Both were good though, Summerslam- ***, Raw- ***3/4

 

Kurt Angle vs Rey Mysterio (SD)

Another great Smackdown TV match, not as good as Mysterio/Guerrero, but still great. ***1/2

 

Paul London vs Billy Kidman (NM)

I just downloaded this, and liked it a lot. London's selling is awesome, and the reaction to his SSP is neat as well. Good stuff, although I'm glad I didn't order the PPV just for this.

 

Paul London vs Nunzio (Velocity earlier this year)

I don't remember this, but judging from their first Velocity match back in 03, this was hella good.

[Dark Age 0]

Another good 'un I got to add. Rey vs Noble on Velocity. Really good match. Not as good as Noble/London, but still fun. TILT-A-WHIRL ARMBAR!

[razazteca 0]

If they make that into a Best of WWE 2004 dvd then I would buy it.

[Guest The Shadow Behind You]

2004 was a huge improvment over 2003 where great matches stopped at Angle/Benoit RR 03, HBK/Jericho WMXIX and WGGT/Kidman and Mysterio.

[Tawren 0]

Might as well add my match by match thoughts, seeing as I started the thread.

 

-2004 Royal Rumble

Benoit doesn't get enough attention in this, and while that may sound like fanboy-crying, it isn't. The story of the match is Benoit lasting #1 to the end and overcoming the monster (Big Show), but for most of the match Benoit is in the far background. Add to that my hatred of Foley and lame moments like The Cat as well as the overall limitations of the match, this is barely a solid match.

 

-Eddie Guerrero vs Brock Lesnar (No Way Out)

Probably the best of the "big name" matches from early 04. Both are really on their game. I don't like the interference at the end, but they felt it was needed. That and the ref bump drag this down a bit, but the rest of the match is really really good. ***1/2 or so.

 

-Jamie Noble vs Paul London (Velocity)

These guys just tear it up here. Both are at their crispest and this is easily Noble's best match in ages. The ending sequence is incredible. ***1/4

 

-Kurt Angle vs Eddie Guerrero (WrestleMania)

The better of the world title matches from WMXX. I really like the first half of this, as they build for what should be a good conclusion...but then they hit typical finisher-city. The boot ending is smart but comes off flat. **3/4 or so.

 

-Triple H vs Chris Benoit vs Shawn Micheals (WrestleMania)

I still don't like this match. Triple threats are inherently screwed because the formula they almost have to go with makes the match seem dumb right from the start. Add to this that we have a ton of spots that I just hate (double table suplex, HHH stops HBK from tapping, and so forth). HHH and HBK are really sloppy for most of this match (fatigue my ass, they are sloppy from the start) and the blade jobs by both are dumb. **1/2 generously.

 

-Eddie Guerrero vs Rey Misterio (Smackdown gauntlet final)

I've only seen this twice, but I remember really liking the arm-work and how it played into the finish. I'm going to re-watch it soon.

 

-Triple H vs Shelton Benjamin (Raw - the first upset)

Again, only seen twice, but this one I didn't really like.

 

-Mick Foley vs Randy Orton (Backlash)

I hate this match. I watched it on PPV and hated it, saw all the praise, still hated it, and re-watched it recently and hate it more. A ton of disjointed weak bumps that take forever to set up between mindless brawling and horrible selling. Woop-dee-doo.

 

-Triple H vs Chris Benoit vs Shawn Micheals (Backlash)

Seen twice, didn't mind it. Don't remember much, though.

 

-Chris Benoit vs Shawn Micheals (Raw: Showdown in the Desert)

Only saw once, but I remember not liking it because of HBK doing his usual no-selling crap. Not going out of my way to see it again.

 

Kurt Angle vs Eddie Guerrero (2/3 Falls and SummerSlam)

Didn't really like the SummerSlam match, but the 2/3 falls was fun. Hated the finish, though.

 

Chris Benoit vs Randy Orton (Raw and SS)

Only saw each once and wasn't paying much attention, so no thoughts on them.

 

Kurt Angle vs Rey Mysterio (SD)

Don't remember.

 

Paul London vs Billy Kidman (NM)

Good stuff, but Kidman really isn't that good and London isn't quite good enough to do a great carry job. Kidman's SSP looks terrible next to London's. Maybe **1/2.

 

Paul London vs Nunzio (Velocity earlier this year)

Don't remember.

[UseTheSledgehammerUh 0]

-Eddie Guerrero vs Brock Lesnar (No Way Out) *** 1/4

-Jamie Noble vs Paul London (Velocity) Haven't seen it.

-Kurt Angle vs Eddie Guerrero (WrestleMania) ***

-Triple H vs Chris Benoit vs Shawn Micheals (WrestleMania) **** 1/2

-Eddie Guerrero vs Rey Misterio (Smackdown gauntlet final) ** 1/2

-Triple H vs Shelton Benjamin (Raw - the first upset). ** 1/2

-Mick Foley vs Randy Orton (Backlash) ***

-Triple H vs Chris Benoit vs Shawn Micheals (Backlash) *** 1/2

-Chris Benoit vs Shawn Micheals (Raw: Showdown in the Desert) * 1/2

[Guest Rrrsh]

-I'd say it was the best Rumble. What's better? 92?

 

 

92 was better. 91 was better. And it ties with 2001 and 1995.

 

 

-Triple H vs Chris Benoit vs Shawn Micheals (WrestleMania).  Good, But Brock/Eddie was better.

 

It beats Eddy/Brock due to its buildup alone. Thye were both great matches in their own right, but it was a match that really ahd no background and really had no story to tell other than Eddie was mad and stuff.

 

 

 

 

Orton/Foley, an okay brawl. Not as good as it seemed, but it's pretty fun. But Triple H/Cactus it is not.

 

Its better than the HHH one because Orton did what HH didn't. If you watch them back to back, H looks like a pussy compared to Orton. Plus Orton sold better than H.

[UseTheSledgehammerUh 0]

Raw has had 3 or 4 tag matches, plus Orton/Jericho, plus an 8-man, plus other bouts that are all better than both of the Michaels/Benoit matches. They just didn't click, IMO, on TV.

[Guest wildpegasus]

Looking at some early 2004 WWE cards, I have compiled a list of the matches that many people here at TSM considered ****+ at the time:

 

-2004 Royal Rumble

-Eddie Guerrero vs Brock Lesnar (No Way Out)

-Jamie Noble vs Paul London (Velocity)

-Kurt Angle vs Eddie Guerrero (WrestleMania)

-Triple H vs Chris Benoit vs Shawn Micheals (WrestleMania)

-Eddie Guerrero vs Rey Misterio (Smackdown gauntlet final)

-Triple H vs Shelton Benjamin (Raw - the first upset)

-Mick Foley vs Randy Orton (Backlash)

-Triple H vs Chris Benoit vs Shawn Micheals (Backlash)

-Chris Benoit vs Shawn Micheals (Raw: Showdown in the Desert)

 

So I'm wondering, is there anybody who still considers these to be classic or really good matches? Aside from Guerrero/Lesnar, London/Noble, and Guerrero/Misterio, all of which I really liked (***1/4-***1/2 each), I don't think any of the above matches were all that good.

 

Now that we have some distance from them and can be a little more objective, do we like these matches more? Less? The same? Were there any better, forgotten matches from early 2004?

RUMBLE

 

was fun. The most realistic ending I've seen to one

 

GUERRERO vs LESNAR

 

Pretty good match overall. Loved Eddie winning the title. I really miss Lesnar's wrestling

 

JAMIE KNOBLE vs PAUL LONDON

 

Good match

 

ANGLE vs EDDIE MANIA

 

Interesting

 

TRIPLE THREAT MANIA

 

Ending was done nicely as it put the fans on a roller coaster ride of emotions

 

HHH vs BENJAMIN

 

Good match

 

FOLEY vs ORTON

 

Didn't really like this

 

BACKLASH TRIPLE THREAT

 

Not as good as Mania

 

BENOIT vs MICHAELS Showdown in the Desert

 

WWE MOTY so far

 

BENOIT vs ORTON

 

Really liked this one. Angry Benoits rule.

 

 

I'll also give a shout out to the Smackdown match of Benoit/Cena vs Rhyno/Lesnar/Big Show/Morgan. Probably my match of the year before Benoit vs Michaels happened.

[Guest Evolution]

-2004 Royal Rumble

** Second best Royal Rumble I've ever seen, not a classic since 1992 had that much more awesomeness to it.

 

-Eddie Guerrero vs Brock Lesnar (No Way Out)

** Not a classic, but certainly the last best match Brock had in the WWE, IMO.

 

-Jamie Noble vs Paul London (Velocity)

** Never saw it.

 

-Kurt Angle vs Eddie Guerrero (WrestleMania)

** The finish will become a classic, but I don't know if the rest of the match will be remembered as such, it will likely be overshadowed by the triple threat.

 

-Triple H vs Chris Benoit vs Shawn Micheals (WrestleMania)

** Will still be a classic for many years to come. All of the false finishes and the momentum building towards that defining moment when Triple H taps out is a markout moment for everyone who saw it live.

 

-Eddie Guerrero vs Rey Misterio (Smackdown gauntlet final)

** Haven't seen it.

 

-Triple H vs Shelton Benjamin (Raw - the first upset)

** Like Angle/Eddie, the finish will be more remembered than the actual match. But it is one of the five best matches on Raw this year.

 

-Mick Foley vs Randy Orton (Backlash)

** I actually forgot that this match happened. However, thinking about it, I think I will remember it as a hardcore classic. Kind of up there with Angle/Shane and HHH/Cactus.

 

-Triple H vs Chris Benoit vs Shawn Micheals (Backlash)

** Wasn't as good as the WMXX triple threat, and people will always remember the WMXX one more than this one. But it was still good.

 

-Chris Benoit vs Shawn Micheals (Raw: Showdown in the Desert)

** Finish was too wonky for it to be considered a classic, but everything leading up to it was good stuff.

 

As for forgotten matches in 2004, I think one of the many six-man/eight-man tags they've had on Raw with Evolution and random pairings of faces stood out from the rest. I can't peg which one it was, though.

[Spaceman Spiff 0]

Another good 'un I got to add. Rey vs Noble on Velocity. Really good match. Not as good as Noble/London, but still fun. TILT-A-WHIRL ARMBAR!

Might as well add in the 2nd Knoble/London Velocity match, too. Not as good as the 1st, but after re-watching it, I ended up liking it a bit more than I did after it originally aired.

 

The 2 Velocity Knoble/London matches are really good (as well as the Rey/Knoble match from Velocity). It's a shame not many people saw them.

 

What?!? Have you even SEEN the match (Knoble/London) in question? It went, if I recall, 12-15 minutes. That's more than enough time. And in that time, they did more than most guys do in 30.

It went 10:17. Their 2nd encounter went 7:05, and Rey/Knoble went 11:15.

[haws bah gawd 0]

Im really tired so I did a copy/paste of some of UsetheSledgeHammerUh's post:

 

Eddie Guerrero vs Brock Lesnar (No Way Out) ****

-Jamie Noble vs Paul London (Velocity) Haven't seen it.

-Kurt Angle vs Eddie Guerrero (WrestleMania) ** (I think this is the most overrated match of the year)

-Triple H vs Chris Benoit vs Shawn Micheals (WrestleMania) *****

-Eddie Guerrero vs Rey Misterio (Smackdown gauntlet final) ** 3/4

-Triple H vs Shelton Benjamin (Raw - the first upset). ****

-Mick Foley vs Randy Orton (Backlash) Haven't seen it

-Triple H vs Chris Benoit vs Shawn Micheals (Backlash) **** 1/2

-Chris Benoit vs Randy Orton (the night after Summerslam) ***** no question about it

 

I say Orton vs Benoit from Raw after Summerslam is WWE match of the year. Sure it was ALL Benoit, but damn was it spectacular.

[Just call me Dan 0]

I don't see how Benoit vs Orton on Raw where Benoit just does all signature moves and jobs to simple interference is better than Benoit vs Orton Summerslam where Benoit kills himself with some of the best bumping of his career and he and Orton go back and forth until a great finish from nowhere ends it just a bit early.

[Lord of The Curry 0]

The lack of Eddy/Brock love in this thread is disgusting. Nuclear crowd heat, stellar selling on the part of both men with Brock giving likely the performance of his career and I'm actually seeing a ** rating for it?

 

Brock's moveset is just killer in this match. Even when they both a spot (Eddy's hurricanrana) it turns out awesome. Sweet cradle and vertical suplexes and a DEAR GOD German Suplex (twice!). The jumping knee in the corner looked sick and the subsequent bump he took on the follow-up was awesome. He even pulls out a one-legged vertical suplex. As great as it was to see Eddy win the title and as much as the night was about him, you could make an argument that Lesnar was the star that night.

 

The story of Eddy using the ring and everything around him to his advantage (ringpost, belt) and timing his comebacks right after Brock made any kind of an error worked well IMO. The submission sequences were HOT and the crowd was buying into the concept of Brock tapping out as it had been established in December w/ Benoit.

 

The Goldberg interference doesn't hurt the match too badly because it's Eddy's cheating via the belt bump that leads to the frog splash and the 1-2-3. One of the most memorable post-match celebrations with Eddy sayin' "Fuck it" and jumping into the front row.

 

****1/2

[Red Hot Thumbtack In The Eye 0]

Eddie V Brock is the moty i figure. No real major faults can be found in this match (with some minor tweaking in some of the transitions ie: punch punch punch knee lift to reverse flow). A simple match that they get away with because Eddie holds everything together and Brock cooperates perfectly. Brock makes this a ton better based on the fact that while the match is fairly usual big man meaning to crush little man, Brock is athletic enough to keep up with Eddie when things speed up, and strong enough to convincingly help Eddie bump himself to an early grave. I really don't like the Goldberg run in, but at least it makes sense and sets up the finish instead of acting as a cheap way out. Of course Eddie's personal story (Eddie found his way out when they said there was No Way Out) is total icing on the cake, and the celebration really does make you feel good for the guy.

 

Triple H vs Chris Benoit vs Shawn Micheals (WrestleMania)

 

I don't think that this is a classic beyond being about the best example of a 3 way match (which is a terribly flawed concept by it's nature) and the fact that it's the capping of the story of everyone's favourite "Life long journey to the title". It will be regarded as classic due to the show it was on and the men involved more than being an all time great match.

 

Triple H vs Shelton Benjamin (Raw - the first upset)

 

This was never a classic match at all. And not really close to **** and up stars. I think this one is overrated by the special match feeling and the fact that HHH has the rep of being the squasher of all upward movers causing mega shock after him putting someone else over in a non title, non ppv big show etc environment.

 

Mick Foley vs Randy Orton (Backlash)

 

IWA style death matches aren't, and shouldn't be considered classic. Good brawling and Orton proving he's all manly via bloodloss and puncturing with Mick being crazy old Mick.

[Lightning Flik 0]

Uh, Curry, the guy wasn't posting the snowflakes. He was more posting his thoughts and using the snowflakes to show that. That would be why all the matches in his post have ** to them.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

I think rating Eddie/Brock below **** is criminal, as it is -by a very wide margin - the best WWE match thus far in 2004.

 

The luv for the WM20 3-way, while not surprising, is still making me pull my hair out. Seriously, I'd almost struggle to call this "very good", let alone excellent, let alone classic. It is all formula, pacing, and structure - with no content. I saw the match live on PPV, I wasn't blown away at the time. I DL'd the match a few months later and the sound was off by a second and the match totally sucked. Why? Because it took the pacing away. That match relies only on its structure and nothing else. It's a typical HBK match. And you do get points with me for that, because I recognize the importance of it and it takes a certain talent to space everything out and build the crowd up with spots, but that's what it really was - a spot fest. Not a TLC spotfest, but a spotfest none-the-less. And that's typical with 3 ways, because it's hard to really be effective and logical with 3 guys fighting each other. So they had to rely on "this guy beats this guy, this guy takes a rest". They didn't reinvent the wheel here, and personally, the Big Benoit Title Win didn't really do anything for me. The build up was SHIT (Eddies/Brocks was shit too, but that was more because they only had 3 weeks to do it and the WM match had 3 MONTHS. And for anyone saying that I was against the WM 20 match before it even began, I was against Eddie/Brock as well) and Benoits lame duck reign didn't help the cause any either. They may have ended off the show with Benoit and Eddie, and the tag line may have been "Where it all begins...again" but NOTHING changed. Something that is great tends to have influence, tends to have effect; this didn't.

 

Eddie/Brock was a level above the 3 way, because it actually had DEPTH. As Curry mentioned (and no one else does) Eddie is absolutely brilliant in the match. He uses the ring to his advantage. He uses his surroundings, he is resourceful - and he has to be, because Brock would just slaughter him if it were straight-up. Brock tells him "You don't belong in this ring" at the beginning of the match as he throws him to the outside. So if Eddie can't be in Brocks world, he'll make it his own. If it weren't for the Goldberg interference and how that all played out, and how Eddie's reign went up in smoke, this would have truly been a great match, IMO. A classic.

 

I think the closest thing to it would be Angle/Eddie from Summerslam, which has also been criminally overlooked.

[Fro 0]

Raw has had 3 or 4 tag matches, plus Orton/Jericho, plus an 8-man, plus other bouts that are all better than both of the Michaels/Benoit matches. They just didn't click, IMO, on TV.

Bull... they've just never worked a singles match together with PPV effort. They click together amazingly in their first match on Raw but the match is very short. The "Showdown in the Desert" match was an attempt to have a good, but not MOTYC quality match and it was successful.

[Slayer 0]

Of the ones I did see, the ONLY one still sticking out in my mind is the WM 3way

 

Goldberg's interference totally killed the Eddie-Brock match for me

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

-2004 Royal Rumble

 

A very good Rumble, and I'd put it at maybe a shade below the '92 one, which is the best of them all. I thought it was well done for the most part, and it had enough booking twists to keep things interesting. I'd go with *** 1/2 - ***3/4

 

-Eddie Guerrero vs Brock Lesnar (No Way Out)

 

On first viewing, I saw this as a ****1/2 match, and loved it. Later viewings show it not to be quite at that level, but still pretty damn good. I'd go with ****

 

-Jamie Noble vs Paul London (Velocity)

 

Never seen it.

 

-Kurt Angle vs Eddie Guerrero (WrestleMania)

 

I liked this, but I didn't think it was great. Also, for a match that had was mean to be heated going in, it was wrestled a lot like any other match. ***1/2

 

-Triple H vs Chris Benoit vs Shawn Micheals (WrestleMania)

 

I've only seen this match once, live. And live it was an easy ***** for me. I plan to rewatch again soon, so I'll probably add additional comments then.

 

-Eddie Guerrero vs Rey Misterio (Smackdown gauntlet final)

 

I didn't see all of this, but I felt it was around the *** mark from what I was able to see.

 

-Triple H vs Shelton Benjamin (Raw - the first upset)

 

This was a great storytelling match, with the upstart Benjamin letting the veteran know he wasn't going to back down. The match I'd give ***1/2, but the follow up gets a DUD.

 

-Mick Foley vs Randy Orton (Backlash)

 

A really good brawl, but I don't think it was as good as some think. The key spots were great, and they were great because they meant somehthing and built somewhere. However, I don't seem to think there was much in betweem those spots, beyond the old 'I will lead you by your head to another part of the arena' brawling schtick. ***1/2

 

-Triple H vs Chris Benoit vs Shawn Micheals (Backlash)

 

Another good match, but a clear level below the WM affair, and with less emotional pull to it. ****1/4

 

-Chris Benoit vs Shawn Micheals (Raw: Showdown in the Desert)

 

I loved this match. Until the finish. Then I wasn't so hot for it. *****1/2 until the finish. **** after the finish.

[Guest Black Lightning]

Goldberg's interference totally killed the Eddie-Brock match for me

Goldberg's interference was a necessary evil in that match. Even ignoring the part about wanting to build up Brock/Goldberg, had Goldberg not come back out, the crowd heat wouldn't have been anywhere near where it was.

 

If you pay attention to the crowd in the match, you can see that they do get hot for the really good segments, but they're always hesitant to completely get into it (except for the monster pop the STF got, which I still don't quite understand). There wasn't a single person in the building that believed Goldberg was really gone, and they all knew he'd be back. You can almost see them watching the entrance out of the corner of their eyes, and as soon as the ref bump happens, they immediately turn to the entrance. But after he does his thing and leaves, you can almost feel a sense of relief (for lack of a better word) go over the crowd, and they're finally ready to see a finish.

 

Besides, Brock kicking out of Goldberg's interference pretty much nullified it anyway, so it's not like it really impacted the finish enough to be the downfall people pass it off as.

 

And yeah, I'm glad I'm not the only one who considers this the MOTY so far. I'm also glad Rudo mentioned Eddie/Kurt from Summerslam before I did, since it saved me from typing up a long explanation. I don't understand how people are calling it the worst of the series, while heaping endless amounts of praise on the super overrated Mania match and the forgettable 2/3 falls match.