The Ultimate Fighter

[AboveAverage484 0]

Since the seventies? Shit, you musta been watchin' Helio and Kimura duke it out or somethin'.

[Lei Tong 0]

Okay, you lost me with the Bruce Lee reference.

[starvenger 0]

I don't necessarily see how Leben would've tried harder vs. Diego. Unlike Koscheck, Sanchez brings good G&P to the game as well as submissions, so if anything Leben would've had more to worry about than being active on the ground.

It's mostly the "oh shit" factor, as seen in Sanchez-Karalexis. Basically, there was no fear in Leben being in the guard against Josh, hence the inaction in hopes of getting stood back up. However, you know that wouldn't be the case with Diego (since he can actually finish an opponent on the ground), so you're gonna need to do something to get out when he takes you down.

[Lei Tong 0]

I dunno. Crhis doesn't seem like the kind of guy who would need the threat of harm to motivate to work harder off his back, and if he does... well, then it's his own fault for losing that much more.

[Vyce 0]

There's a reason I called him Fratboy, and it's because I hated the persona.  Still, the storyline progressed such that it was easier to like Leben over Southworth and Koschek, who would probably trash talk after winning paper-rock-scissors.

I tend to look at in that Leben was easier to hate. The guy was a tool, an immature bad loser who was trash talking Koschek and the other middleweights [plus a few light-heavys] from the minute they entered the house. His actions 90% of the time were talking shit and annoying other people. You may find that entertaining and thats what you want from reality shows but its the thing I hate most about them. Whilst Southworth and Koschek are no Saints they look so compered to Leben.

 

 

All he had was a loud abrasive style and a ton of hype which evaporated when he actuallty fought for the first time on the show. His final scenes shown where he is throwing a childish temper tantrum and crying his eyes out summed him up to a tee.

YES.

 

Besides, wasn't Leben the one who pissed in some guy's bed at the start of the series? But when Koscheck turns a hose on him, he's going to "break his teeth in"? Fuck it. He's a complete tool. Koscheck may be a pit of an annoying pussy, but I'll take him over Leben ANY day of the week.

[starvenger 0]

I dunno. Crhis doesn't seem like the kind of guy who would need the threat of harm to motivate to work harder off his back, and if he does... well, then it's his own fault for losing that much more.

Hard to fathom, but that's the way I perceived it. Either way, Leben's still out, Koschek's still in, and Diego would likely kick both their asses unless he stuck his chin out.

[starvenger 0]

Besides, wasn't Leben the one who pissed in some guy's bed at the start of the series? But when Koscheck turns a hose on him, he's going to "break his teeth in"? Fuck it. He's a complete tool. Koscheck may be a pit of an annoying pussy, but I'll take him over Leben ANY day of the week.

I think I'd just rather take neither and be done with it.

[Lei Tong 0]

Well, Diego can take shot, and something tells me the guy's too much of a retard to feel pain anyways.

 

With Nate likely out & Josh being exposed, Diego more or less has the MW division in the bag.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

I don't know about you guys but my desire to watch the show just dropped dramatically. Other than the potential revenge angle with Quarry and Koscheck, it just got a lot less interesting. I'll still watch but I wanted to see Leben smash some cats.

I'm feeling the same way, except I won't be watching at all. I'll read reports, and if anything major does happen I'll try and catch a repeat, but apart from that, I'm tuning out.

[Guest Fook_Theta]

From the Observer:

From how I had it timed, the fighters were on their feet for 3

minutes/30 seconds and on the ground for 6 minutes/30 seconds.

Did anyone see anything other than like two attempts at a submission while on the ground for that long? Absolutely pathetic performance from both men, not to mention the stalling at the beginning that never paid off.

[Youth N Asia 0]

This two round crap doesn't work. Just gives the better wrestler a chance to take down and lay dead weight on the other guy. Chris didn't have a great fight, although I would have given him round 1. But Josh showed me nothing in that.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

The UFC fight didn't live up to its hype, as Josh Koscheck outwrestled Chris Leben for two rounds and won the decision. There have been a ton of questions about that fight, judging, UFC, etc. There are a few things that have to be accepted in any judgement sport, and UFC, like boxing and kickboxing, is a judgement sport. In a close fight, you have to accept the decision. Crying someone is robbed in a close fight is bunk. And you have to look at the judging criteria before you complain. In the recent Tito Ortiz vs. Vitor Belfort fight, I thought Ortiz won the fight. Belfort gassed out in round two and got his ass kicked all through round three. However, if I had judged on the ten point must system, which is the Nevada and New Jersey commission scoring regulations that UFC picked up, and I watched round one over and over, I would have had it a draw, or possibly Belfort 29-28. It really could have gone either way. Two of the three judges thought differently, and one didn't. Judges are encouraged not to do 10-10 rounds, and if I was judging, without question if I HAD to pick who won the first round and not picked a draw, I'd have said Belfort. Anyone with an open kind should be able to concede it is very possible to score round one for Ortiz, and in that case, he wins the fight on points, even though I didn't see it that way. Belfort wasn't robbed. If Belfort would have won, Ortiz wasn't robbed. If it was Pride, Ortiz would have won because they judge the whole fight, and the guy beating the other one-sidedly for the last several minutes is going to win the fight. There have been questionable decisions on both sides. Neither method is superior to the other, they simply reward different things. UFC rewards a balanced fight while Pride rewards stronger offense in flurries and does have more emphasis on finishing.

 

For people who don't like the groundwork in MMA, you don't have to be a fan. If you want the pure striking and find groundwork boring, then you should love K-1 and Muay Thai kickboxing. It's a more brutal sport and there is no wrestling involved. I think it's ridiculous when long-time MMA fans complain about fights going to the ground. It's like a football fan who complains that guys are wearing pads. Hey, become a rugby fan. It's like a kickboxing fan who thinks kicking is for pussies. If you don't like it, watch boxing. Okay, watch boxing. If you like groundwork but think punching on the ground isn't sporting, watch Jiu Jitsu.

 

I think a big component of what people haven't been able to actually say, is there is an argument over sports vs. entertainment. We all know pro wrestling is entertainment. We all know amateur wrestling is sport, which is to its detriment as a marketable activity. UFC, in reality, is more entertainment than sport, and here is the reason. If you are following baseball or football, and there is a lousy game, the winner still wins and generally speaking, fans of the winning team are happy even if the win wasn't pretty. In UFC, it is much better to lose a great fight than win a boring fight, as last night showed, and as any long time fan and fighter needs to understand. Generally speaking, the ability to capture the fans' interest in the fight and your personality is more important than winning. Same goes with boxing. If Matt Hughes won five more fights in a row, and Sean Sherk won ten more fights in a row, and both cleaned out the division, and next year, they are put in the main event, on PPV, as the undisputed two best guys in the weight class, it won't draw squat on PPV. Why? You have the real champion vs. real No. 1 contender. In football, the Super Bowl is the biggest game of the year even if the marquee teams are knocked out in the playoffs. Ditto baseball, even though the AL championship series came close to World Series numbers, but that's also not a regular occurrence. If you look at the highest rated fights in Japan from New Year's Eve, everyone was personality driven. The two best fighters themselves against each other with all the marbles at stake wasn't even one of the five biggest fights of the night, let alone the biggest fight of the year, to the average fan. Last night's fight was seen by more people and anticipated by more people than any fight in UFC history, and a month ago they were unknowns, and it was all due to hype and storyline. Nobody even really knew, with the exception of a tiny amount of hardcore fans, if the two guys could even fight. Now, they didn't deliver an entertaining fight. Will it kill the show? We'll find out next week when the ratings come in. I think they may be slightly down, but nothing that one good episode won't overcome. Now will they do the numbers last night did again? Possibly no, but even if they had a great fight last night, that could have been the case. Those who think last night's fight is a "sky is falling" proposition for MMA are dead wrong, but ultimately it was proof that entertainment is more important in UFC than sport. You had two guys, one won a fight using the best strategy for him to win. The only complaint is that either there was too much wrestling, in which case, watch a sport where you're not allowed to wrestle, or it wasn't entertaining enough, which is a very valid point, but realize what that means.

 

As for complaints about judging, when it comes to last night's fight, the guy who won the fight, was judged a winner by unanimous decision. He would have won by any criteria used, except maybe a sport Jiu Jitsu criteria, but this isn't sport Jiu Jitsu, and a guard is only a neutral position if nothing happens (which did happen in round two). A guard can be a superior position of the guy in the guard is the only in control, and does something with it. That never happened at any time. Koscheck totally controlled the ground work. He took no chances, but Leben never opened up his guard nor took any risks either. I'd say they were equally at fault from an entertainment value in making it a boring fight, but Leben was at fault more because he was the one who needed to make something happen, because Koshceck was the one executing his exact game plan. Wrestling skill counts a lot. It's not everything, but the guy on the bottom has to get up, or work for a submission or a sweep or something rather than just hold on and wait for the ref to save you with a stand up. And Leben got his stand up for doing nothing twice, and both times was immediately taken down.

 

Leben barely missed a few punches and knees that could have changed the fight. Perhaps in a rematch he'd hit them. Perhaps in the third round he would have hit one, although watching the fight, at that point the odds were 85% that wasn't going to happen. Leben was mentally beaten at the end of round one when he knew he couldn't do anything once he got down. He was afraid to punch because he knew he'd be taken down. Koscheck was afraid to get hit, but of the two guys who feared each other, he executed his game plan. Each subsequent time, Koscheck took him down quicker and stronger. He was gaining confidence and breaking the other guys' spirit. I deal with high school wrestlers every day, and some guys are great when they are superior, but can't win close ones because they have a bully mentality and aren't mentally tough. You can't win an NCAA title without being mentally tough under pressure, because unless you're Danny Hodge, you're going to meet someone close to as tough as you at some point, and if you can't take a close match, the other guy who beat you. Leben, when he couldn't get the knockout punch so easily, mentally broke down as the fight went on.

 

As for judging, it's a ten point must system. In the first round, Koscheck got two takedowns, threw 23 body punches, none super damaging, but he continually threw them, a few head punches, two of which had some velocity to them, and two knees to the BUTT. He didn't hurt Leben badly, but in response, Leben was taken down twice, and on the bottom, threw five punches with almost no leverage that did far less damage. Standing, which was half the first round, nobody landed. Yes, Leben held onto Koscheck in a guard for dear life which is a neutral Jiu Jitsu position, but this isn't wrestling and it isn't Jiu Jitsu. The takedown is an offensive move, but Koscheck did do something with his takedown. Not much, but he was far more aggressive and Leben did nothing. I don't see how anyone couldn't judge it 10-9. It was not a close round.

 

The second round was different. Koscheck threw one standing punch that nailed Leben, which was the best punch of the fight, to set up a takedown. He scored two takedowns. Koshcheck, unlike in round one, did nothing with his takedowns. He was riding out the clock, but also neutralized Leben. Leben threw baby punches with no velocity from the bottom, which did no damage. The hard slams by Koshcheck were more damaging than Leben's weak punches, as they took the wind out of him, and clearly were breaking him mentally. A simple wrestling takedown into a guard is a neutral position. A hard slam does damage to your wind and your psyche and even if the landing is in the guard, is an offensive move, even if it wouldn't be in Sport Jiu Jitsu, just as a round where you control it with a jab standing but do no real damage with the jab is a winning round. I could very easily see calling this a 10-10 round, if you come from the mentality where the takedown doesn't count. Even with that mentality, Koscheck won 20-19. Even with the takedown being part of the fight, I could easily see this as 10-10, and scored it myself as such. If you told me I can't do an even round, then, to me, the best punch of the fight, and a hard slam did more damage that annoyance blows from the bottom. The slams did more than anything Leben did. After watching it several times, I still can't, even trying to give Leben the benefit of the doubt, come up with a way to give him round two. He had zero leverage with his Kimura attempt. If he actually had power in that move and was controlling the situation from the bottom and setting up subs, he would have easily won the round on his back. This was not picking a winner based on a neutral position and one guy being on top. Leben did nothing that he needed to do. If two of the judges had Leben winning the round, it would have gone into overtime. None did. In a round that close, I would disagree with Leben winning, but if it had gone to overtime, I'd have accepted it as part of subjective decision making. But because it didn't, that was not bad judging by any means, and probably was good judging. None of the judges saw it that way. I didn't either. After Randy Couture gave the speech about having to be good reps for the industry to the public, when it was over, both failed to listen. Koscheck clearly mocked Couture before hand, and I could see his point since Couture had been protecting Leben, who should have been booted out earlier. But Couture's own fighter, once again, also didn't listen to his coach. But that only added to interest in a second match. Bad sportsmanship is often good marketability. That's simply a sad but true facet of our society and sports.

 

As for the complaint about not being a third round. The rules of the fight were two rounds, not three. I'm not arguing better or worse, but those were the rules they came up with for television fights. The fact is, for the average TV viewer, the hype and story are more important for ratings than the fight itself, and a long bad fight with people who aren't over is bad for ratings. Now these two guys were over, so I think even though it was a bad fight, I didn't hear one person say they tuned out.

 

Several people wrote it was like calling a football game after the third quarter and having judges decide the outcome. That analogy was way off. Football has overtime. It was closer to a football game, which, when the time limit expired, one team was ahead 14-7, and then complaining, "Why didn't it go to overtime because the losing team conceivably could have won the game with 15 more minutes." Because you only get overtime when it's tied, not when it's close.

 

Ironically, in K-1, that is different. When they judge tournaments, the rule is if the fight is close, call it a draw and go to overtime. They encourage draw decisions with the half points and needing to win by a full point. UFC discourages draws. Personally, I like the UFC system better because some of the K-1 judging I've seen is way out there. But again, K-1 knows what it is and protects its marketable fighters every way it can. So does Pride. UFC does not to anywhere near the same extent. If you're into this as sport, you should congratulate UFC for its mind set. If you are into this for business, you can say UFC blows opportunities and misses chances because of this mentality. It's just what you want that is the better method, it to be a sport or it to be entertainment. But just understand what it is that you really want in the end. To me, I want what is best for business in the long run, and the answer is obvious.

 

From Meltzer's latest update

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Poor Dave. Poor, poor, Dave.

[Your Paragon of Virtue 0]

Josh Koscheck looked like a mini Kerr, right down to the way he held up his hands. Fights like him too (unfortunately).

 

I'd have picked Quarry to run through all four MW from Team Liddell, but

 

a) One is switching over and

 

b) He's hurt.

[Your Paragon of Virtue 0]

After watching two of the top contenders go at it, I have a feeling that the winner, other than Quarry, would get their ass handed to them in the UFC. Tanner, Terrell, Lindland, Franklin, would have their way with them. The most well-rounded fighter, probably Quarry, is the only one with a chance.

 

These guys, I'm beginning to think, aren't as great as I thought they would be. But it makes sense, because otherwise the UFC would have picked them up already. These are the guys that do well in the indies, and then get sent home after they lose their first UFC match. That's essentially what Doerkson-Leben was, and Doerksen doesn't really belong in the UFC yet I think. I think that they will be disappointed with how the winners perform on the big stage.

[Vyce 0]

Poor Dave. Poor, poor, Dave.

Dave's dead-on, though.

 

Was it a boring fight? Yeah.

 

But Koscheck flat-out beat Leben mentally, and worked a "smart" fight in the sense that he had a game plan going in, and he made it happen.

[Lei Tong 0]

After watching two of the top contenders go at it, I have a feeling that the winner, other than Quarry, would get their ass handed to them in the UFC. Tanner, Terrell, Lindland, Franklin, would have their way with them. The most well-rounded fighter, probably Quarry, is the only one with a chance.

 

These guys, I'm beginning to think, aren't as great as I thought they would be. But it makes sense, because otherwise the UFC would have picked them up already. These are the guys that do well in the indies, and then get sent home after they lose their first UFC match. That's essentially what Doerkson-Leben was, and Doerksen doesn't really belong in the UFC yet I think. I think that they will be disappointed with how the winners perform on the big stage.

I wouldn't say none of them belong in the UFC yet. If Diego or Nate can make through each other as well as the other MW's (and possibly the LHW winner), then they'd fare at least decently in the UFC's MW division. Tanner & Lindland are smart yet vulnerable fighters, Franklin's moving back up in weight, & Terrell may be headed back to Pancrase, so they're not exactly going to be facing murderer's row upon entry.

 

Also, IMO Doerkson is better than one would gather from his UFC debut. He (like a lot of people), underestimated how powerful Riggs would be at 185, and paid the price, though trying to outwrestle Diesel was a dumb move regardless.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Poor Dave.  Poor, poor, Dave.

Dave's dead-on, though.

 

Was it a boring fight? Yeah.

 

But Koscheck flat-out beat Leben mentally, and worked a "smart" fight in the sense that he had a game plan going in, and he made it happen.

Dave was in damage-control mode there. He has major insecurities about covering wrestling and would much rather be writing primarily about MMA. He promoted and praised TUF and it didn't pay off; if it was the WWE he would have highlighted the problems the show had rather than going on an indepth diatribe over technicalities.

[Styles 0]

He has major insecurities about covering wrestling and would much rather be writing primarily about MMA.

How do you figure that? I agree, Dave wants to see MMA suceed and even admitted he'd want what was good for business, but how do you gather a guy who has dedicated his life and career to covering pro wrestling world wide from every angle for over 20 years has insecurities about covering wrestling? He wants to see the wrestling business suceed just as much as he does MMA. It is the "Wrestling" Observer after all.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

How else would you explain his constant referals to wrestling in the "mainstream"?

 

The way I see it, once Meltzer got married, got old, and had a kid he realized that his wasn't exactly the most respectied profession. "What does your daddy do for a living?" "He talks about wrestling".

[Styles 0]

How else would you explain his constant referals to wrestling in the "mainstream"?

 

The way I see it, once Meltzer got married, got old, and had a kid he realized that his wasn't exactly the most respectied profession. "What does your daddy do for a living?" "He talks about wrestling".

He also makes a ton of money off his subscriptions. He has no staff to pay, and he can write off paper, ink and even wrestling PPVs as business expenses. He's pretty much the only guy the mainstream news goes to when they want to interview a "wrestling journalist". Are you a subscriber RRR? I am, and I get the impression that when wrestling is good, Meltzer writes really positively on it and when it's bad he takes it to task. He always focuses on whats good for business though, and covers things from that angle. He sees UFC as a business trying to break into the mainstream and is thus covering it from a business point of view. Although this argument is kind of silly...

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

Ultimate Fighter on Monday night did set the expected record for the show, doing a 2.0 rating, up 35% from the show's average, and getting 2.2 million viewers.

 

Credit - WO.com

[Vyce 0]

I'd also submit, Slapnuts, that RRR is far more partial to MMA, so perhaps his perspective on Melzter is a bit skewed.

[Guest Brian]

Personally, I think Meltzer would rather see Mixed Martial Arts hit it big because I think he sees a lot more vindication for his work. A real sport offers a lot more potential work (he'd probably earn far more pub as a commentator) and gives him something that is more prestigious. I'd be surprised if he wouldn't want to shift into that kind of market given business was relatively equal.

 

In the last six or so years, his interest in covering wrestling has, IMO, waned. Maybe it's the state of the business.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

He also makes a ton of money off his subscriptions. He has no staff to pay, and he can write off paper, ink and even wrestling PPVs as business expenses. He's pretty much the only guy the mainstream news goes to when they want to interview a "wrestling journalist". Are you a subscriber RRR? I am, and I get the impression that when wrestling is good, Meltzer writes really positively on it and when it's bad he takes it to task. He always focuses on whats good for business though, and covers things from that angle. He sees UFC as a business trying to break into the mainstream and is thus covering it from a business point of view. Although this argument is kind of silly...

 

That in no way addresses my point.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Missed the first few minutes, but it doesn't look like I missed much.

[starvenger 0]

All you missed was Southworth being an ass.

[starvenger 0]

Shit, when did Forrest shave half his head? Was it always like that?

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Forrests decline into insanity continues

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Who the fuck is this chick?

 

Willis Fedor? She related to the russian fighter?