Should Casinos be allowed to ban Card Counters?

[NoCalMike 0]

This reminds me of the guy who hacked the board on Press your Luck, and won like crazy. The Ratings were so high, the networks let the guy keep going on forever, running over into other shows that were supposed to be coming on. There was a special on E! that explained how he did it.

[Special K 0]

Anyone ever see the special on the team of MIT students who had a little card-counting racket (led by a prof) going? That was neato.

[The Czech Republic 0]

Should Forums be allowed to ban CronoT?

[kkktookmybabyaway 0]

Oh leave him alone, he's harmless.

 

*hits refresh button 200 times...*

[Stephen Joseph 0]

I *was* a card counter back in my college days. I could handle about a six-deck shoe, and used the very basic hi-lo system. By myself, I would earn a paltry 2% an hour on average from card counting. If I had a partner with a bigger roll, he might get 5% when I would call to a hot deck. We got bored pretty fast because in order to make counting profitable, you need a whole crew, and casinos identify that pretty fast.

 

We made a killing in underground casinos in Atlanta though...

[Special K 0]

Hey, this was an interesting CronoT topic.

[Ravenbomb 0]

Maybe the Casino has contests to guess how many cars are in the parking lot... kinda like counting jelly beans in a jar

Is it 4,815,162,342?

[starvenger 0]

Anyone ever see the special on the team of MIT students who had a little card-counting racket (led by a prof) going? That was neato.

There's a book called "Bringing Down The House" which more or less chronicles the same thing.

 

Anyways, if you can do card counting, all power to you. I've got no prowess in that regard, so I'll stick to basic strategy. Or playing craps.

[spman 0]

How often, or for that matter does it ever, happen that someone can just walk into a Las Vegas casino, randomly pick one slot machine out of the pack, and win a huge jackpot, say six digits, with one pull of the lever?

[Stephen Joseph 0]

How often, or for that matter does it ever, happen that someone can just walk into a Las Vegas casino, randomly pick one slot machine out of the pack, and win a huge jackpot, say six digits, with one pull of the lever?

whatever the probability that that machine has.

 

A time I was in Vegas, my girl decides to play slots while I'm playing NL Hold'em. After 6 grueling hours I'm up 50 bucks (wow, great money there). I find her hanging around with some friends, freaking won 500 bucks on the nickel slots.

 

gah!

[Kaertos 0]

The biggest problem I see with making exceptions to the rule that allows a business to refuse service to anyone is that, suddenly, there would be a flood of exceptions with almost as much reason to exist as the card counting thing.

 

Imagine being refused service at a restaurant because you are a bad tipper, or being kicked out of a department store because you are browsing with no intention of buying anything.

[Jingus 0]

But we're not talking about commercial enterprises that sell valued goods here; we're talking about friggin' casinos. Gambling as an industry is considered a slightly more ethical way to make a living than prostitution. It's basically making money off human weakness. They are parasites, by definition. Why should we be surprised at anything they do to protect their profits?

[Special K 0]

I don't think anyone's surprised at all that they're trying to do it. I think it's a matter of whether it should be legal.

 

I personally think prostitution is more ethical than casinos.

[Kaertos 0]

My point is that, regardless of the "ethics" of the casino business, they operate more or less under the same laws "more ethical" businesses do, at least in areas where gambling is legal.

[Special K 0]

Can other places throw you out for essentially claiming to know what you are thinking?

[Crimson Platypus 0]

The bottom line is that they can (and should be able to) throw you out for whatever the hell they want to do so. They don't owe you the right to even walk in their doors, let alone gamble there.

[CanadianChris 0]

My point is that, regardless of the "ethics" of the casino business, they operate more or less under the same laws "more ethical" businesses do, at least in areas where gambling is legal.

Any business can throw you out whenever it chooses, for whatever reason (subject to civil rights, of course). It's why trespass laws exist.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

I'm a little ignorant here. What exactly IS card counting? Can someone explain it to me?

[Guest MikeSC]

The best casino-related question is why the fuck would ANYBODY play the slots on one of those casino boats that go into int'l waters, since, technically, they aren't under any state's regulations and, thus, don't actually have to ever pay out a dime if they choose not to?

-=Mike

[Guest BDC]

If the boats quit paying out, then they start losing customers.

[Guest MikeSC]

If the boats quit paying out, then they start losing customers.

There are enough "problem gamblers" that they'd never go broke.

-=Mike

...Casinos always claim to not want gambling addicts --- but having worked at one, I can guarantee you we LOVE gambling addicts...

[CanadianChris 0]

I'm a little ignorant here. What exactly IS card counting? Can someone explain it to me?

It's a method of figuring out when you (the player) has the advantage in a shoe of blackjack. At the start of a shoe, the house has an advantage of 0.5% - 1%. As the cards come out, the advantage will fluctuate based on what cards are remaining in the deck:

 

- If there are more small cards remaining than there are tens, the advantage the casino has over the player will increase, since the player will get fewer blackjacks (which pay 3:2, compared to losing 1:1 if the house gets blackjack) and the house will bust on bad hands less often.

 

- Conversely, if there are more tens and aces remaining to be dealt than small cards, the advantage will shift toward the player. The player will actually have an advantage over the casino if there are significantly more tens and aces than small cards left.

 

Card counting is a way of keeping track of the ratio of small cards to large cards in the deck. The simplest method is the hi/lo count - tens, face cards and aces count as +1, 2-6 count as -1. 7-9 are neutral cards and count as 0. As each card comes out of the shoe, you add it to your running count. You then divide your running count by how many decks (approximately) are remaining in the shoe, to get what is called a true count. When the true count is +2 or higher, the shoe is in your favour, and you increase your bet. There are also strategy changes that need to be made depending on the count (e.g. not hitting 12 against a 2 when the count is high positive, hitting 13 against a 2 when the count is high negative).

 

The counting part is not that hard. The hard part is being able to remember the count and the adjustments, and be able to hide the fact that you're doing it.

[Ace309 0]

Can other places throw you out for essentially claiming to know what you are thinking?

You know, I could have sworn someone posted something to this effect back on the first page.

 

Long story short, yes. A business can throw you out more or less for whatever reason it wants to, subject to protected-class distinctions. The fact that there are costs for doing so (word-of-mouth spread of bad publicity, etc) just makes it a bad idea to.

[Guest TheDon]

I remember watching a show on the History Channel I believe about a guy and his buddies being card counters in NJ and then in Las Vegas. It seemed like everytime he would get kicked out of the Casinos they would settle out of court for thousands of dollars for false arrest or something along those lines because Card Counting is not illegal.

[Jingus 0]

That does bring up an interesting point: how do casinos catch counters? Since it's all done in your head, the evidence is nothing more than facial expressions. Anyone know?

[Ace309 0]

My understanding is that card counters generally get 'caught' as such when they're careless about varying their bids and playing in ways that are consistent with counting - there are plays that no one in their right mind would generally make, except if you're counting and the deck is in a specific composition. I don't know enough about blackjack to be any more specific.

 

Alternatively, they get asked to leave when they've won huge sums of money, as a standard business practice.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

Ok. Next question is, what is the big problem with card counting? Is keeping track of the cards really such a heinous activity?

[The Metal Maniac 0]

Alternatively, they get asked to leave when they've won huge sums of money, as a standard business practice.

 

Really?

 

So if I went into a casino, got really stinking lucky and started to clean up on Blackjack, they could kick me out just for winning? That sucks.

 

Is keeping track of the cards really such a heinous activity?

 

To the casinos it is.

 

It puts the odds in your favour, thus, it's somehow unfair.

[Ace309 0]

Is keeping track of the cards really such a heinous activity?

 

To the casinos it is.

 

It puts the odds in your favour, thus, it's somehow unfair.

Um... there's a reason they don't offer coinflipping at 2:1. The games are selected such that the odds are in the house's favor, and the payouts tweaked so that it pays out less than it statistically "should." Casinos are a business, and I'd be very surprised if anyone walked in there without knowing that the odds are slanted significantly in the house's favor.

[CanadianChris 0]

Ok. Next question is, what is the big problem with card counting? Is keeping track of the cards really such a heinous activity?

Casinos don't like anyone holding an advantage over them. However, blackjack is easily their most popular table game, so they don't want to tinker with it, for fear of losing all the suckers who play badly and enjoy doing it. So, they eject anyone who they suspect is counting cards, and make everyone else feel as welcome as possible.

 

There are a number of casinos, though, who don't care if you're counting or not, as long as you're not being obvious about it.