The Slowly-Dying Death of RPG's.

[Guest CronoT]

I've been thinking about this for a few days, and I felt that I needed to let it out.

 

RPG's used to be the sole domain of the Otakus, the Stat Geeks, and the D&D Junkies. In these video and pen and paper games, fans and fanatics alike could lose themselves in their chosen character, and experience on the TV and in their minds, a new world, a different world, than the one in which they lived. They could move, explore, grow, change, and affect the world around them.

 

The Golden Age of RPG's was during the Nintendo and Super Nintendo Eras. Dragon Warrior, Final Fantasy, Breath of Fire, Chrono Trigger, Dungeons & Dragons, Secret of Mana. For any classic RPG'er, these names bring back lots of memories, and hours of fun. True, some people occasionally became social recluses while playing their particular "poison of choice," but it was all in good fun. So what if you only saw your family once or twice a day? You deafeated Kefka, and Lavos, and The Dragon Lord, and Deathevan, and you saved the world.

 

Then, the Mainstream came....

 

After the overwhelming success of Final Fantasy VII, the Suits started seeing the dollar signs instead of the quality. Slowly, the RPG games started to have less and less to do with RPG, and more to do with mainstream appeal. More and more RPG's started having lots of mini-games. Mini-games that had absolutely nothing to do with the main storyline of the game. That was just the start. The games started involving T&A, something that was anathema to most RPG games. Some gamers got absolutely turned off. Others took the guilty pleasure and ran with it.

 

The most recent slap in the face was the release of the game Final Fantay X-2. This game was released for one reason and one reason only: to capitalize on the media buzz around the Charlie's Angels movies. Hundreds of thousands of horny, teeange boys rushed to the stores to purchse a cheap knock-off of a cheap knock-off of a 1970's television series. The game creators were no longer designing the games. The Suits were. The Suits, who ultimately, had nothing more on their minds than the dollars signs.

 

Then, it looked like the geeks had a new refuge. The birth of the MMORPG Era created a new way for RPG geeks to get back to their roots, and even allowed them to converse and explore their new worlds together. But then, the Mainstream, with the Suits and the dollar signs reared their ugly heads again. Star Wars Galaxies and Final Fantasy XI were, in the end, a way for the Suits to get more money from obssessed fans who were clamoring for anything and everything in their chosen poison.

 

There have been a few bright spots recently, such as Star Ocean 3, and Morrowind. Other than that, most of the RPG's were cash cows; and we bought them even knowing what they were. The reason we bought them, was because they were the only things available.

 

So, let us give one final farewell to one of the greatest game genres in history, and mourn it's passing.

[Jingus 0]

...that might be the best thing CronoT has ever written.

 

 

 

 

or worst. It's hard to tell these days.

[Ted the Poster 0]

I am all for the passing of RPGs. Bring back point-and-click adventure games!

[ChrisMWaters 0]

I am all for the passing of RPGs. Bring back point-and-click adventure games!

*hums the Monkey Island theme.

[Ced 0]

RPG's used to be the sole domain of the Otakus, the Stat Geeks, and the D&D Junkies.

 

Seriously, I was about to give you a thoughtful retort but I had the urge to smack you upside the head after reading that line.

[{''({o..o})''} 0]

Let the voodoo lady finish off her five game contract.

[Anya 0]

I'm glad FF VII changed things. I think modern RPGs are better than the old school. FF VII-X are classic and KOTOR & KOTOR II are the next best thing. They're no less RPGs or quality games, you just don't like the style. I can understand why you'd be upset, but blaming it on suits or a desire only for money isn't fair. I don't know how you can claim to know why developers do certain things. How do you know the inspiration for FFX-2? Can you provide any source for this? How do you know "suits" made them use that style? From all the interviews I've read from the producer it was a choice he made to make X-2 different than X and to show the carefree life of post-Sin Spira. I've heard nothing about it being something that was forced upon the development team. He could be lying, but there's no way to know.

 

 

The criticism of FF XI doesn't really make any sense. How is it made by "suits" or for the "mainstream"? It is a traditional MMORPG and nothing like most modern FF games. I would think FF XI would be the kind of game old school players would embrace.

 

 

And when it comes to Square, I don't think FF VII really changed their way of making games as much as people think. They just finally had the technology to do what they had always wanted to do in the first place. The series was getting more and more cinematic as it progressed.

[LaParkaMarka 0]

X-2 wasn't just a suit push for the horny male audience. It seemed as much trying to lure in female gamers with the whole girl-power theme. And really, if you don't like a game you don't have to play it. How anyone sees a videogame as a slap in the face is beyond me.

 

The stuff about MMORPGs is retarded as well. Sure, a game like XI is a massive cash cow. But they are a cash cow partially because of the huge demand for them. Look at World of Warcraft.

 

It's not like deep old school RPGs aren't created anymore. Disgaea definately had that old-school flair. So do games like Growlanser, Tales Of Symphonia, Shadow Hearts Covenant, Shin Megumi Tensei, etc. Maybe those games didn't get the hype of XI or X-2, but it's not like the market is completely devoid of older-style RPGs.

 

Your blame on "the Suits" is very amusing. Games haven't been designed by programmers for a long time. Deal with it. If you can't handle that, go sit in a darkened basement with a copy of Dragon Warrior and the D&D Players Manual clutched to your chest, while the rest of world moves on.

[LaParkaMarka 0]

And when it comes to Square, I don't think FF VII really changed their way of making games as much as people think. They just finally had the technology to do what they had always wanted to do in the first place. The series was getting more and more cinematic as it progressed.

This is a really good point. There were a ton of cut-scenes in FFIV, FFVI, and Chrono Trigger. Remember all of the flashbacks in VI, or the big cut-scene explaining Frog's past before he blew a path through the mountain? I mean, if someone hated them then and hates them now, that's consistent and something I can understand. But enjoying a 30 min cutscene ending in FFVI and hating cutscenes in the current generation is hypocritcal.

[Anya 0]

Yeah, and another thing that's always heavily exagerated is the FMV in new FF games. You always hear "omg its nothing but fmv! the cutscenes are like a hour long!!". Not counting the ending there can't be more than 15 minutes of FMV in all of FF VII combined.

[chirs3 0]

X-2 wasn't just a suit push for the horny male audience. It seemed as much trying to lure in female gamers with the whole girl-power theme. And really, if you don't like a game you don't have to play it. How anyone sees a videogame as a slap in the face is beyond me.

 

Agreed. If it had been nothing but a cheap cash-in or "suits" game or whatever he wants to call it, I doubt Square would have put in as much effort as they did.

 

It was a change of pace. Sorry if you can't deal with that Crono, but maybe Square got tired of making regular Final Fantasy games, and just wanted to have a little fun. Or maybe they thought their audience was sick of regular Final Fantasy games and just wanted to have a little fun.

 

And, surprise surprise, the end result was just that - fun. Yes, it was girly and campy and cheesy and silly, but it was fun.

 

God forbid they actually try something different.

Edited April 21, 2005 by chirs3

[Anya 0]

It's funny how people get so hostile over something being girly and silly.

[MrRant 0]

It's a goddamn video game you dramatic fuck.

[Special K 0]

RPGs aren't dying, and won't be dead for a long time. They still make assloads of money for one, and excellent RPGs come out all the time, especially if you expand your definition to include strategic RPGs.

 

FFX, Disgaea, La Pucelle, Shadow Hearts 1 & 2, KOTOR, Kingdom Hearts, Growlanser, Valkyrie Profile, Tactics Ogre GBA, Fire Emblem GBA have all come out somewhat recently, and they all are good-great games, and those are just the ones I've played (besides KOTOR, but I've heard its praises enough to go out on a limb and say it's probably pretty damn good.) Most of these games are far and away better than the first two Breath of Fires.

 

No there hasn't been a game as timeless as FFVI and Chrono Trigger in a long time. There weren't console RPGs that good before then either. And let me tell you: FFII SUCKS, and has one of the worse levelling systems of any RPG I've seen. FFV has a SHITTY plot. I hear FFIII is the worst of the bunch. It's not like good graphics sullied an unblemished series, much as FFVI is probably my most favoritest game.

 

Basically RPGs got popular, and it opened up doors for RPGs, both good and bad to come into the states. You just have to be a little bit more selective.

 

It seems to me you're mostly pissed about FFX-2. I didn't see it overtly marketed towards 'horny boys'. It's no great shakes, but Chrono Cross and Suikoden III were poorer sequels to better games than FFX, IMO. FFX-2 did pretty much exactly what it wanted to in terms of storyline, whether or not it's to your tastes, and it has a very, very good battle system.

 

Meatwad got it right in one respect: adventure games are HISTORY. Look at that, or the puzzle genre to see genres that are truly dying. Sam & Max was cancelled a good ways into its development because of lack of interest. For SAM & MAX one of the biggest cult games ever, and easily in everyone's top 5 adventure games.

 

(P.S. Meatwad, check out the Longest Journey. And of course Grim Fandango if you haven't already.)

 

EDIT: And it's not like they're fucking shovelling out FF's like sports games, or the excellent GBA Castlevanias (Good games that recycle graphics. The horror!), or the Mega Man's (Mega Men?) and Pokemon. THey spend a shitload of time and effort on those games, and whether or not they succeed by your estimation, they're try to make quality games. If Square had the same business practices as numerous other companies like Activision and EA, we'd have another Kingdom Hearts a year ago. Do you know how much money that fucker MADE?

And, wait, did you just try to say that Star Ocean III was somehow old school? That thing reminds me of Xenosaga with some of its cutscenes.I'm sure it was created exclusively with you in mind though, and not to make money like those 'cash cows.'

 

Go download Seiken Densestsu III, Bahamut Lagoon and Star Ocean the first. They're fun. They were in no way created to make money.

[Guest JebusNassedar]

If RPGs are dying, good.

 

If not, then keep hiunting for good ones. You cant change the opinions of the masses with stuff like this, but vote with your wallet. If you hate RPGs, don't buy RPGs.

 

Either way, gaming's dead in five-ten years. The Grand Reset Button is on it's way to being smashed repeatedly by the new technology rush.

[MrRant 0]

I'm still waiting for Holodecks.

[Lightning Flik 0]

In these video and pen and paper games

 

Crono, could I ask what the hell is with this? Video and pen and paper games? That makes no sense.

 

The Golden Age of RPG's was during the Nintendo and Super Nintendo Eras. Dragon Warrior, Final Fantasy, Breath of Fire, Chrono Trigger, Dungeons & Dragons, Secret of Mana. For any classic RPG'er, these names bring back lots of memories, and hours of fun. True, some people occasionally became social recluses while playing their particular "poison of choice," but it was all in good fun. So what if you only saw your family once or twice a day? You deafeated Kefka, and Lavos, and The Dragon Lord, and Deathevan, and you saved the world.

 

Ok, yes this was the "Golden Age". Yet why? Most likely because there wasn't as many RPGs as there was before. Back then we were lucky to get 5 RPGs a year. Now, there's not a month that goes by that we don't have 5 dropping on our doorstep. And many of them not the quality ones from Japan that are still there like the Atelier Series (yeah, we got one coming over, that's pure luck).

 

After the overwhelming success of Final Fantasy VII, the Suits started seeing the dollar signs instead of the quality. Slowly, the RPG games started to have less and less to do with RPG, and more to do with mainstream appeal. More and more RPG's started having lots of mini-games. Mini-games that had absolutely nothing to do with the main storyline of the game. That was just the start. The games started involving T&A, something that was anathema to most RPG games. Some gamers got absolutely turned off. Others took the guilty pleasure and ran with it.

 

Mini-games are ok as long as they do it right. I mean wasn't everyone saying how awesome blitzball would be a real game? I mean, if I'm not mistaken there was a whole thread on the discussion about it. The problem with the mini-games is they are either horridly planned or have no point.

 

Cloud on a bike fighting was cool too at the time. So was Cloud on a snowboard. Mini-games were fine when used just as mini-games. However, the problem is many companies turned from making mini-games to be mini-games and made them problematic little actual games within games. Those games within games never work unless that's the entire gimmick of the game (WarioWare).

 

T&A not apart of RPGs. Oh I'm sorry. All the good looking women from RPGs called. They'd like you to recant that. Seriously though, T&A just never got flashed (bad pun, I know) at us because the graphics weren't like they are now where you can nearly make a realistic model of a person for a video game. And I highly doubt anyone really was that terribly upset over the flaunting of T&A in new generation video games. I mean, the heroine always did look like a goddess, didn't she? Doesn't the hero always look valiant?

 

Seriously, when has the hero ever looked like a scrub, or the heroine look plain? Face facts, they don't sell that and nor is it what we as RPGers envision as the stars of the story.

 

The most recent slap in the face was the release of the game Final Fantay X-2. This game was released for one reason and one reason only: to capitalize on the media buzz around the Charlie's Angels movies. Hundreds of thousands of horny, teeange boys rushed to the stores to purchse a cheap knock-off of a cheap knock-off of a 1970's television series. The game creators were no longer designing the games. The Suits were. The Suits, who ultimately, had nothing more on their minds than the dollars signs.

 

You do realize that Final Fantasy X-2 was in production before Charlie's Angel: Full Throttle? Hell, I'll take FFX-2 over CA:FT any day in terms of storyline.

 

Also it was banking off the push of "grrl powah" that runs rampant every so often. Why give the gals new outfits? To make sure the guys play this one as well as the girl audience they were aiming for.

 

However, even I'll admit the game actually was playable and I won't bash it nearly as much as I will another game that shitted on its legacy that its series made.

 

Then, it looked like the geeks had a new refuge. The birth of the MMORPG Era created a new way for RPG geeks to get back to their roots, and even allowed them to converse and explore their new worlds together. But then, the Mainstream, with the Suits and the dollar signs reared their ugly heads again. Star Wars Galaxies and Final Fantasy XI were, in the end, a way for the Suits to get more money from obssessed fans who were clamoring for anything and everything in their chosen poison.

 

MMORPGs allowed RPGers back to their roots? How exactly? You aren't THE hero or part of the PARTY of heroes who's out to save the world, but rather one person living out his life in a gaming certain fantasy setting and doing a few quests here and there to keep the populace of NPCs happy.

 

There have been a few bright spots recently, such as Star Ocean 3, and Morrowind. Other than that, most of the RPG's were cash cows; and we bought them even knowing what they were. The reason we bought them, was because they were the only things available.

 

Damn Crono. I'll let Morrowind slide, but STAR OCEAN: TILL THE END OF TIME?! You call that piece of shit a bright spot? You call a game that was built on two previous games of the same series that basically had written up a setting and universe of this game; that turns around and by the end makes both previous games POINTLESS a bright spot?!

 

What about Tales of Symphonia, Shadow Hearts 1 &/or 2, Disgaea, KOTOR, Breath of Fire: Dragon Quarter... I'd list those guys before either Morrowind or especially SO3.

 

So, let us give one final farewell to one of the greatest game genres in history, and mourn it's passing.

 

Dead? No. Oversaturated, yes.

 

I am all for the passing of RPGs. Bring back point-and-click adventure games!

If you want one of those, go play a hentai game.

 

I'll point you towards "Let's Meow Meow" and let you go from there.

 

FF VII-X are classic and KOTOR & KOTOR II are the next best thing.

 

No offense Anyanka, I don't think VII or IX will be remembered too foundly by many. The others, I can see, but those two probably not.

 

The criticism of FF XI doesn't really make any sense. How is it made by "suits" or for the "mainstream"? It is a traditional MMORPG and nothing like most modern FF games. I would think FF XI would be the kind of game old school players would embrace.

 

Reason why FFXI flack is because its a) not Final Fantasy Online, but rather Final Fantasy XI, b) most people don't like the aspect of everything being set up and would like fresh worlds, and c) most people thought this was a cash grab at an attempt to get money off of a hot thing, which it probably was but as you say we can't speculate it.

[Anya 0]

Every game is made to make money. That shouldn't be a bad thing either, why would anyone want to design a game that nobody wants to play? The problem is when developers make a game for money without intending for it to also be a quality title. That isn't the case with FF XI. They spent millions of dollars and several years to put it together. It wasn't a quick project just to cash in on Everquest. I don't see how anyone could play FF XI and come to that conclusion. I can understand not liking it, I know I don't like it nearly as much as the single player games, but it's obvious Square put a lot of effort into it.

[Guest Vitamin X]

Surely you meant XIII and IX. VII is still creamed over by most people.

 

And I, for one, really enjoyed X until it felt like I was repeating the exact same game over and over again but in a different setting. From what I read in the walkthrough, I was almost done with it though, but fuck that.

 

KOTOR deserves to be on that list much more than KOTOR II. I got somewhat addicted to KOTOR II, but the first one I could not keep my hands off of. I got all into the storyline and thought about it when I wasn't playing it, and the ending was so fantastic and epic as well. The second one was a major letdown, and even then still more playable than some games I have just sitting around (Crimson Skies for one.. Never got around to finishing it although I was obsessed with it when I first got it)

[Anya 0]

Yeah, II isn't nearly as good as the original, but it's still a really good game and I put it with 1 just because they're connected.

[kkktookmybabyaway 0]

Good job, Crono -- I'll only hit the refresh button 50 times.

 

Crono, could I ask what the hell is with this? Video and pen and paper games? That makes no sense.

 

I think he meant video games and p&p games...

[Slayer 0]

The irony is that back in the Golden era, I had plenty of time to devote to what RPGs did come out... now I'm an "old" man who doesn't even have the free time to play more than one RPG (out of an abundant selection, no less) a year

[AndrewTS 0]

Haven't console RPG players and pen-and-paper RPG players almost always been completely different and separate audiences?

 

I thought the pen-and-paper ones either continued with those, or moved onto MMORPGs. The MMORPGs are obviously quite a bit more mainstream, with players other than those enjoying them. However, I've gotten the impression that console RPG players and MMORPGs remain fairly distinct audiences.

[BUTT 0]

Crono, what you wrote may be true. But adding mainstream appeal, T&A, "the suits" being more interested in money than quality..............that's true of the entire game industry, not just RPG's.

[Guest CronoT]

Crono, what you wrote may be true. But adding mainstream appeal, T&A, "the suits" being more interested in money than quality..............that's true of the entire game industry, not just RPG's.

The earliest RPG games were games made by single individuals, or small groups, who then went and tried to sell the game to companies once it was completed. If you want to know what I'm talking about, check out Black Onyx and Super Black Onyx.

[Special K 0]

So, you're saying it takes more people to make games nowadays. True in every genre. Are you saying video games as a whole are dying? I think most would beg to differ.

[Guest CronoT]

So, you're saying it takes more people to make games nowadays. True in every genre. Are you saying video games as a whole are dying? I think most would beg to differ.

I'm saying that the "It Factor" for what makes a good RPG is missing; and I don't think it's going to be found.

[Guest OSIcon]

This basically boils down to the "things aren't like they were in my day" setiment. *Everything* changes and evolves and there will always be people who preferred things the "way they were". RPG's aren't any different.

 

I am with ChronoT in that I haven't enjoyed an RPG in years as much as I ejoyed FFVI, Chrono Trigger, ect. Given how I like my games in general, the newer RPG's are just too time consuming and/or have trouble hooking me in with their gameplay (and story sometimes). However, it is kind of dumb to you just talk about how RPG's are a dying genre because technically, a lot more people play them today. You might not like the direction they have gone in (and I'd probably agree), but it is FAR from a dying genre. It has just moved into a different direction.

 

FFVI is my favorite game of all time and Chrono Trigger (along with other NES and Super NES RPG's) aren't very far from behind. I doubt any new RPG will touch those, but there are still good RPG's out there....you just have to be more selective as someone already mentioned. Everyone has different preferences, but I've really enjoyed Mario and Luigi: Superstar Saga, Paper Mario 2, and Skies of Arcadia in the last couple of years. Skies of Arcada especially reminded me of a "classic" RPG in that the battle system was innovative and fun, the story was good (but not overly complicated), and the game was just fun to play.

[Lightning Flik 0]

As I had stated before, it isn't the quality of RPGs, or rather games, that is being lowered, but we are oversaturated right now with games. As I said before, you can now find 5 RPGs a month, whereas in the old days it was 5 RPGs a year.

 

And the small groups still exist that create the games. But are licensed to work for the game by the big groups and their names only get attatched to the credits because they were hired by the big groups to forge this game for them. They are also hard to keep going because of the amount of coding and stuff that needs to be done due to expectations on graphics and sound (notice I don't say gameplay or story).

 

As I said its like 300000 lines of code for a menu (and even then, I might be on the short side) and it takes the average person a year to make up that many lines of code. Hence a game could literially be millions of code which could take up like 2-3 years to make sure is all right, not to mention they have to code up the graphics and stuff and I don't know how much that takes. It could literially mean a single person might take up to 5-10 years to push out a single game that's 5 to 10 years outdated. Hell, in 5 years time a new system might come out and make the game that's being worked on obsolete.

[Special K 0]

Dude, sorry to burst your bubble but that 'It factor' is NOSTALGIA.

 

Breath of Fire I & II aren't that great! Neither are FF II and V. A whole ton of good RPGs have come out recently. Disgaea came out in 2003. It was plenty old-school and a terrific game.

 

Have you played Dragon Warrior lately? Sure it's an important game, but it's painful now.

The only thing that may be missing from RPG's is: It's really hard to come up with unique plots and characters after so many RPGs.