Guest TFP Report post Posted December 15, 2005 Dear users, I would like to drop that message on this forum as it supposed to be the "smart marks" forum. The X division is praised as a kind of a revolution in pro wrestling by self proclaimed "smart marks". But in fact, the X division is not really pro wrestling... We got wrestlers who are performing during 20 or 30 minutes matches, and they are performing more than 30 moves each times (73 for the iron man match of styles and daniels at against all odds 2005) in a total complete lack of psychology and storytelling. We have a succession of moves, and the performers seem not to feel any pain, there is no(or really bad) selling! Styles, Daniels, Williams, Samoa Joe are really good performers, they are super athletes and defenitly good technicians but it is such a waste of time for them. I mean, the bookers are damaging the business with those matches, they make pro wrestling fake. Let me explain, the classic matches are done with 4 or 5 moves to make them as real and as efficient as possible, and the wrestlers are selling them and are creating a real match psychology and storytelling. And on the other side we got a new generation of wrestlers who are taking dozen of slam in a match and are still fighting as fresh guys... It is a big non sense! In fact the X division is a kind of a circus with stunt guys who are performing moves and moves and moves during 30 minutes... And at the end, you don't remember the story, you don't know who you were supporting, you just remember the moves...That is the opposite of what pro wrestling is built on... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Bulwark Report post Posted December 15, 2005 Dear Troll, The X-Division is the only reason TNA has survived as long as it has. Let me explain, the classic matches are done with 4 or 5 moves to make them as real and as efficient as possible You're post should be entitled "Why WRESTLING is not good at all." Where do you see matches like that now a days? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Si82 0 Report post Posted December 15, 2005 Dear TFP, You sir, are an idiot. And not only an idiot but an idiot that's living in the past. How X Division matches are not pro-wrestling I don't know but you seem to long for a time that has well and truely gone. 4 or 5 moves in a match? When the hell was this? Besides, who the hell counts the number of moves in an average X division match anyway? Damaging wrestling, making it fake, what the fuck are you on? Jesus, can you not just lighten up and enjoy the matches for what they are? BTW, what the hell is a "big non sense" anyway? And for God's sake space your paragraphs out. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Astro101 0 Report post Posted December 15, 2005 Wow, you counted each move in the iron man match? Loser. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest TFP Report post Posted December 15, 2005 You guys don't know what pro wrestling is made of. Look at the wwe, look at huge superstars who are able to maje 30000 people standing up or sitting down. Guys like Hogan, Austin, The Rock, Triple H...Are they flipping every 2 minutes in the ring? Do they need to perform 30 moves to give the fans a great match? The answer is NO! Why? Because they are pro wrestlers not stunt guys! Why do you think a guy like CM Punk has been told not to know how to work? Because he is a performer and not a real worker... You said that I live in the past, you are wrong, I love and I truly respect this business... You should watch the matches of the wwe and nwa heavyweight and try to count the moves, you will see that those guys are only doing 4 or 5 moves and not more... Why? because pro wrestling is supposed to look like a real fight and not just a circus stunt performance... You are the exact stereotype of the TNA fans who love to shout holy shit every 30 seonds because those guys are flipping all around the ring... This is not pro wrestling guys...what you like is stunt. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest GoJoe Report post Posted December 15, 2005 This makes the comment about TNA being the same level as Smokey Mountain Wrestling look sane. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Team Angle Pusher 0 Report post Posted December 15, 2005 I really don't agree with you but I have noticed something when I watch wrestling with my dad. He likes Big Show and Kane and guys like that who just do big moves, when wrestlers do fast moves after eachother like in the X Division he says "this is fake, I don't like it". Everything is pretty much fake ofcourse but the fakeness (if that's a word) is more visible when Lightweights wrestle in the eyes of marks. That's all. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Human Highlight Reel Report post Posted December 15, 2005 Is that you, Batista? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LaParkaYourCar 0 Report post Posted December 15, 2005 Something tells me this guy hasn't seen many good X-Division matches. Sure there are spot monkeys out there, but there are also guys who could wrestle better matches than half the WWE roster. A big problem is TNA has less time to work with every week so the matches are shorter and the guys aren't used to shorter matches. So the moves tend to all get crammed into a short amount of time. Most of the TNA guys have had awesome matches in ROH because they're given more time. Most casual fans I've talked to lately say they'd rather watch a smaller, faster, innovative wrestler than some boring brawler, a slow hoss, or someone who only knows 5 moves (half of which are barely moves to begin with). Could TNA use some work on their characters? Absolutely. But to say the X-Division isn't wrestling is just stupid. There is more than one kind of wrestling. This is a pitfall that WWE seems to be falling in as they seem to want all the Crusiers to wrestle like Heavyweights and they want all the wrestlers to wrestle the same match every time they go out, thus blurring the distinctions in style in their wrestling. The reason the X-Division has become so popular is because it's put back the variety in wrestling. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Happy Go Nowhere Report post Posted December 15, 2005 Guys like Hogan, Austin, The Rock, Triple H...Are they flipping every 2 minutes in the ring? Do they need to perform 30 moves to give the fans a great match? The answer is NO! Come on, you're trying to say that if Hulk Hogan suddenly busted out a step-up hurricanrana then finished the guy with a shooting star legdrop, you wouldn't be happy? You sir have no soul. But yeah, the X-Division is what it is. It's about good fun matches, stop over analysing it and just enjoy it. And don't tell me that Kurt Angle or Benoit are doing just five moves in every match, that's nutty like butter. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest TFP Report post Posted December 15, 2005 That is not what I am saying. Guys like Styles are performing great moves but they want to make them so spectacular that sometimes they don't look real. It is not a question of size, those guys are doing great things but there is no psychology, it is just a succesions of moves and spots. With their technical and high flying abilities they could achieve great things in the business but thanks to promoters they are locked in a kind of a "ghetto" like the harcore champions in harcore wrestling. To show my opininon : Take Samoa Joe. Very long matches, dozens and dozens of moves and submissions etc... so everybody says "Waow! samoa Joe is the best!" but in the bookings, Samoa Joe looses against Raven who is usually doing 4 or 5 moves in each match. There is something wrong? How a guy able to perform 45 minutes with 100 moves could loose against a guy who is winning and loosing his match in less than 10 minutes with only 5 moves? Why Joe is still getting up after 20 slams but is knocked out after just 3 raven's slams? This thing that makes people says "that's shit, that's fake" is going to lock this super athletes in a performing ghetto... The X division is an innovation, of course, but a bad one! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LaParkaYourCar 0 Report post Posted December 15, 2005 Actually Samoa Joe doesn't have a huge amount of moves. Most of his matches I've seen he's always kept it pretty simple yet effective. That's why he's one of the best in the Indies today because he can keep it simple and grounded and yet wrestle a great match. He's easily one of the few ones out there that could transition into WWE style and not lose much at all. All he needs is to break out on the mic, which he's done before, but just doesn't do often. And Joe losing to Raven wouldn't be wrong because of the amount of moves he does if it's done right and makes sense. I goes back to a distinction of styles. The fans would understand that Raven is more methodical in his style and it would bring a new aspect of psychology to the match. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Coffey Report post Posted December 15, 2005 I somewhat agree but not to the extent that TFP is going. I just don't like a lot of high-flying moves and rope-running moves. That's why I've always liked James Gibson. He's a cruiserweight wrestler but he stays mostly ground and submission based. It's more believable to me. I don't need 450's or Springboard 'Ranas, just a couple innovative submission moves and maybe a Tiger Driver. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The Metal Maniac 0 Report post Posted December 15, 2005 Why? because pro wrestling is supposed to look like a real fight and not just a circus stunt performance... Pro wrestling looks nothing at all like a real fight, and to think otherwise is ignorant. Two words: Irish Whip. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LaParkaYourCar 0 Report post Posted December 15, 2005 I agree. Wrestling is never going to look like a real fight, because in real life you're not going to do most of the stuff they do. It's more about being entertaining with what you do and making it look good for what it is. It's about the art of wrestling really. The art of what is basically a violent dance and when done right is awesome. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mystery Eskimo 0 Report post Posted December 15, 2005 Why do you think a guy like CM Punk has been told not to know how to work? Because he is a performer and not a real worker... You said that I live in the past, you are wrong, I love and I truly respect this business... I know I'm just feeding the troll, but... Firstly, you clearly haven't seen any Punk matches, as he's not a stereotypical X Division style wrestler at all. Secondly, do you not feel the business should evolve and put on different styles of wrestling? Should every single match on a card feature at least five minutes of rest holds? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dangerous A 0 Report post Posted December 15, 2005 You guys don't know what pro wrestling is made of. Look at the wwe, look at huge superstars who are able to maje 30000 people standing up or sitting down. Guys like Hogan, Austin, The Rock, Triple H...Are they flipping every 2 minutes in the ring? Do they need to perform 30 moves to give the fans a great match? The answer is NO! Why? Because they are pro wrestlers not stunt guys! Why do you think a guy like CM Punk has been told not to know how to work? Because he is a performer and not a real worker... You said that I live in the past, you are wrong, I love and I truly respect this business... You should watch the matches of the wwe and nwa heavyweight and try to count the moves, you will see that those guys are only doing 4 or 5 moves and not more... Why? because pro wrestling is supposed to look like a real fight and not just a circus stunt performance... You are the exact stereotype of the TNA fans who love to shout holy shit every 30 seonds because those guys are flipping all around the ring... This is not pro wrestling guys...what you like is stunt. It is what it is, my friend. It is what it is. Pro wrestling is what it is. Your argument that pro wrestling is supposed to look like a real fight and citing Rock, Austin, Hogan, and HHH is flawed. 250-300 lb. men cannot "realistically" throw one another into ropes and have them bounce back to them. The stunner is not a realistic move. The pedigree is not a realistc move. The People's By God Elbow is really not a realistic move in the context of a real fight. Hulk Hogan no selling beatings and then vibrating, wagging a finger, and then 3 moves later dropping a leg across a person that wouldn't hurt my grandmother is not realistic. Hell, most of the top promotions in Japan like AJPW and NJPW are more "realistic" in terms of making matches look like real fights than stuff here in NA if you want to play the real fight card. What works is working. If what Hogan, HHH, etc does works and you promote it as pro wrestling, then it works. If what AJ, Joe, etc does works and it's promoted as pro wrestling, then that works. There is no one set way to work. An argument I hear against Lucha Libre is their matches look even more chereographed than any style in the world. However, Lucha has been around since the 1930's. Are you telling me that isn't working? Working is getting the crowd into believing what you are doing. It's why Hogan works because I know realistically, his matches are fake as fuck. However, I am not ignorant enough to say that what he is doing isn't working. Yes, he and other guys who are monster over don't have to do as much to get a reaction, but that doesn't mean the guys flipping or flopping or whatever it is you are going on about are not working. They are just working more than the other guys. Is what Hogan and Co. doing smarter? Sure in terms of not killing your body, but it doesn't mean what X Division or Lucha or Puro wrestlers do is not working or some "stunt show". It's one thing to say that you don't prefer X Division style pro wrestling. That is fine. It doesn't make you a bad person. But to say someone is wrong for calling the X Division style pro wrestling is wrong on your part. Pro wrestling is what it is. What works is working. No matter where you are working or what style you are using. If the crowd is reacting to it positively in the context of a wrestling match and you are getting paid, you are working. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cabbageboy 0 Report post Posted December 15, 2005 In the recent Joe/Styles match there really weren't all that many different moves. More than a typical WWE match? Sure. But it wasn't really two guys out doing aimless flips and such. In fact it was one of the most vicious, hard hitting, stiff matches I've seen in a long time. The X Division is somewhat like watching a group of guys who got into wrestling having enjoyed not only the WCW cruiser stuff (which is far more elegant in style and not as hard hitting) but also were weened on the more violent ECW style of cruiser stuff such as Tajiri/Super Crazy or even the entire RVD/Lynn series. In fact I think the RVD/Lynn series was basically the template for the entire X Division, but since Lynn himself was one of the cornerstones of the early X Division that stands to reason. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dubq 0 Report post Posted December 15, 2005 Someone +kb this fucking moron. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hyperchord24 0 Report post Posted December 15, 2005 You guys don't know what pro wrestling is made of. Look at the wwe, look at huge superstars who are able to maje 30000 people standing up or sitting down. Guys like Hogan, Austin, The Rock, Triple H...Are they flipping every 2 minutes in the ring? Do they need to perform 30 moves to give the fans a great match? The answer is NO! Why? Because they are pro wrestlers not stunt guys! Why do you think a guy like CM Punk has been told not to know how to work? Because he is a performer and not a real worker... You said that I live in the past, you are wrong, I love and I truly respect this business... You should watch the matches of the wwe and nwa heavyweight and try to count the moves, you will see that those guys are only doing 4 or 5 moves and not more... Why? because pro wrestling is supposed to look like a real fight and not just a circus stunt performance... You are the exact stereotype of the TNA fans who love to shout holy shit every 30 seonds because those guys are flipping all around the ring... This is not pro wrestling guys...what you like is stunt. It is what it is, my friend. It is what it is. Pro wrestling is what it is. Your argument that pro wrestling is supposed to look like a real fight and citing Rock, Austin, Hogan, and HHH is flawed. 250-300 lb. men cannot "realistically" throw one another into ropes and have them bounce back to them. The stunner is not a realistic move. The pedigree is not a realistc move. The People's By God Elbow is really not a realistic move in the context of a real fight. Hulk Hogan no selling beatings and then vibrating, wagging a finger, and then 3 moves later dropping a leg across a person that wouldn't hurt my grandmother is not realistic. Hell, most of the top promotions in Japan like AJPW and NJPW are more "realistic" in terms of making matches look like real fights than stuff here in NA if you want to play the real fight card. What works is working. If what Hogan, HHH, etc does works and you promote it as pro wrestling, then it works. If what AJ, Joe, etc does works and it's promoted as pro wrestling, then that works. There is no one set way to work. An argument I hear against Lucha Libre is their matches look even more chereographed than any style in the world. However, Lucha has been around since the 1930's. Are you telling me that isn't working? Working is getting the crowd into believing what you are doing. It's why Hogan works because I know realistically, his matches are fake as fuck. However, I am not ignorant enough to say that what he is doing isn't working. Yes, he and other guys who are monster over don't have to do as much to get a reaction, but that doesn't mean the guys flipping or flopping or whatever it is you are going on about are not working. They are just working more than the other guys. Is what Hogan and Co. doing smarter? Sure in terms of not killing your body, but it doesn't mean what X Division or Lucha or Puro wrestlers do is not working or some "stunt show". It's one thing to say that you don't prefer X Division style pro wrestling. That is fine. It doesn't make you a bad person. But to say someone is wrong for calling the X Division style pro wrestling is wrong on your part. Pro wrestling is what it is. What works is working. No matter where you are working or what style you are using. If the crowd is reacting to it positively in the context of a wrestling match and you are getting paid, you are working. This clears up a lot of what I've been wondering about working, workrate, selling, etc. Thanks. On topic: I was expecting the OP to begin by saying the guys don't have enough time on the mic, their signature match is screwy with the red X always falling, or they don't get enough TV time. Yeah, I was sadly mistaken Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
razazteca 0 Report post Posted December 15, 2005 And at the end, you don't remember the story... I would read a book or play a RPG or watch Pasions if I wanted a story, me no likey the story, me likey the TOTAL NONSTOP ACTION! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cowboy Battlenuts 0 Report post Posted December 15, 2005 How come this guy got called a troll and idiot right off the bat when he didn't insult anyone? He may of said some dumb things but screaming troll right away is complete fanboyism at it's worst. He has a point, but not to the extreme he takes it. A major problem with the X Division is how choreographed it looks, I've never seen a completely fluid match in TNA, there's always one "waiting" spot where some kind of logic has to fly out the window for them to get it right. But saying "no psychology at all" isn't right in the least, you put two guys in a ring and face them at eachother, psychology is already involved. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
USC Wuz Robbed! 0 Report post Posted December 15, 2005 Dave Meltzer once said, something similar to Dangerous A, in regards to Batista shitting on AJ Styles, that pro wrestling can mean hardcore matches, lucha libre, WWE strong style wrestling, etc. As long as there is a market for it, and it works with that niche market, it is pro wrestling. So you, TFP, have just exposed yourself as clueless. Congratulations. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
I like Forums 0 Report post Posted December 15, 2005 Why don't we all just watch UWF-i. That's real pro wrestling because it looks like a real fight. Everything else isn't pro wrestling at all. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The Metal Maniac 0 Report post Posted December 15, 2005 I would watch UWF-i religously if I could. It was on here like, once; my dad didn't know it was fake until someone told him. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
USC Wuz Robbed! 0 Report post Posted December 15, 2005 How come this guy got called a troll and idiot right off the bat when he didn't insult anyone? He may of said some dumb things but screaming troll right away is complete fanboyism at it's worst. Because like some trolls, he came off sounding like he was saying it to get a rise out of TNA fans and etc, rather than because he believed in it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EdwardKnoxII 0 Report post Posted December 15, 2005 Question. What is UWFi? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cowboy Battlenuts 0 Report post Posted December 15, 2005 Because like some trolls, he came off sounding like he was saying it to get a rise out of TNA fans and etc, rather than because he believed in it. But why would it sound like that unless your expecting it? It was just a guy giving his opinion, it shouldn't be taken as anything more or less. When you act as if you think he's attacking you, you look like your just waiting to be attacked. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
USC Wuz Robbed! 0 Report post Posted December 15, 2005 Question. What is UWFi? A Japanese fed I think, that featured the likes of Vader and etc. Pretty stiff. Battlenuts: I don't care about what he said. I'm just explaining in my opinion why others saw him as a troll. TFP is clueless because he saw pro wrestling as a fraction of what it really is. He used his opinion and tried to make it a fact. This is a big no-no. It's like a WWF fan telling an ECW mutant that ECW isn't wrestling. When Heyman has 2,000+ people coming to see his shows, and they walk away entertained, this is pro wrestling. Hell, an indy show in the boonies that draws 5 people, with a mud wrestling match between two chicks as the main event is professional wrestling, because it is a market. Now I agree with him that the X-division is painfully overrated and that to me, it really isn't my kind of wrestling outside Daniels and Joe, I cannot tell people that it isn't professional wrestling, because clearly there's a market for it and it's successful to an extent. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Coffey Report post Posted December 15, 2005 Well, his first post was condescending, as he kept referring to us as "smart marks" therefore taking himself out of that particular group. From then on, he was talking down to us as a collective whole, or at least attempting to with his terrible grammar and punctuation. He registered so that he could start up shit, it's just that none of us really care because he's just another no-name poster that'll be banned before three days are up. I mean, seriously, he came into the TNA folder to bash the TNA wrestlers. We already all make fun of Jarrett and his shenanigans, so this dude comes in and makes fun of "favorites" like Samoa Joe & AJ Styles. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
