This week in the NBA

[bobobrazil1984 0]

Another rumor has Darko Milicic and Carlos Arroyo going to Orlando in exchange for a lottery-protected draft pick and Kelvin Cato, who would then be waived to get cap relief for Ben Wallace, who is a free agent this summer.

 

Apparently this deal is virtually done according to Buecher of ESPN, they're just going back and forth over the level of protection. I dont particularly like it though, although maybe we can pick somebody worthwhile in the draft.

[Mr. S£im Citrus 0]

And, for the first time all season long, the Kings are out of last place in the Pacific Division.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hey... gotta start somewhere, right?

[Conspiracy_Victim 0]

So, the Clippers are serious about making a push. Good for them.

 

Doesn't look like it to me based on tonight's game.

 

Hey, I'm a Rockets fan, I've gotta celebrate when I can so far this season.

[Kurt Angle Mark 0]

So, the Clippers are serious about making a push. Good for them.

 

Doesn't look like it to me based on tonight's game.

 

Hey, I'm a Rockets fan, I've gotta celebrate when I can so far this season.

 

That is because the Clippers were playing without their poor man's Bruce Bowen, Quentin Ross.

 

They are 4-4 when he doesn't play, in the games the Clippers lost they lost by 22, 17, 19, and 31

 

With Maggette out he has to be there to make up for Sam Cassell's defense or else we get destroyed by the other teams guards.

[The Czech Republic 0]

Looks like the Bulls are pretty much giving up on this season. Is Skiles really that stubborn about giving playing time to Gordon?

[Dangerous A 0]

While I dont' follow the Bulls, I didnt' see a lack of playing time for Gordon last night. He played 48 minutes against the Kings in an overtime loss.

[Brett Favre 0]

A trade on the table right now is Crawford, Penny and Ariza for Francis and Battie.

[Dangerous A 0]

This move has to be for next year because the Knicks are too far behind to make a push for the playoffs and I'm banking it'll take Francis and whoever else some time to get adjusted to how LB wants the game to be played as well as getting used to playing with a guy like Marbury, who dominates the ball like Francis does.

[Brett Favre 0]

Marbury doesn't dominate the ball as much as you would think. It's that everyone around him can't score on their own. I think this move is for next year myself, but anytime you can replace Crawford with Francis, you gotta do it.

[Dangerous A 0]

I definitely agree with that. Crawford is more or less an out of control gunner.

 

The Francis/Marbury dynamic is intriguing in that you've got two guys who can get any shot they want and are willing to take it inside and draw fouls. While I agree that Marbury isn't just a stand there and dribble while the offense takes shape PG, he does command the ball and Francis hasn't had a year in the league where he didn't have carte blanche with the ball. (a reason Houston wanted to move him) It's more of an indictment on Francis than Marbury and it's something they'll have to work out this year and training camp next year, if this deal even happens.

[Brett Favre 0]

Does anyone have ESPNews? They're about to talk about the trade. If anyone can watch and give us an update, i'd appreciate it.

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

A trade on the table right now is Crawford, Penny and Ariza for Francis and Battie.

 

Wash. Rinse. Repeat.

[Brett Favre 0]

Francis >> Crawford & Ariza

Battie >> Penny

[jwpeer 0]

Francis >> Crawford & Ariza

Battie >> Penny

 

 

Penny = HUGE expiring contract.

Francis = Huge multiple year contract

 

And currently the rumors indicate the magic may get Lee or Robinson not necessarily Ariza...

 

In general, this deal helps the magic a lot...and while it brings the knicks more raw talent (no question that Steve Francis is a talented player)...it just continues the cycle of them dumping expiring contracts for larger ones, and if I were a fan I'd be getting sick of it at some point.

[Brett Favre 0]

Not exactly.

 

Crawford's contract runs 2 years longer than Francis', and the difference in money isn't going to be a difference in whether or not they'll be over the cap. Basically, it's replacing Crawford's contract (except Francis' is shorter, so it works out well for us). Tony Battie's contract runs out at the end of this year, so the contract stuff is a wash.

 

Two, I don't think Nate will be included, but I could see Lee or Ariza. I'd hate to give up Lee, but I rather see him play for some other team than have him sit on the bench for no reason on mine. I don't think he'll be included though.

 

And third, I thought it was interesting that Francis' and Marbury's birthdays are one day apart (same year). They have the same number, pretty much the same size, same type of game, and the media has the same perception on both. Just thought it was interesting.

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

Spending 7 mil/year > spending 16 mil/year

 

Steve Francis is a talented player. He has a "name." He does a lot of things well on the floor.

 

However, he just mirrors what you have in Stephon Marbury. A backcourt of two undersized gunners with bad attitudes who think that they are superstar point guards doesn't sound like a winning formula. Why take on a contract like that when it won't make you any better whatsoever. Besides, I thought Lee was part of this "youthful core" that NY fans are always screaming about.

[Brett Favre 0]

I think I just said I rather not trade Lee, and he probably won't be included anyway.

 

Since when has 9 million been a difference between getting under the cap and being over it?

 

And damn man, if you watch the Knicks, I wish there was more than one Marbury. He seems to be the only one who knows how to play basketball at this point. So another one wouldn't hurt.

[naiwf 0]

I think I just said I rather not trade Lee, and he probably won't be included anyway.

 

Since when has 9 million been a difference between getting under the cap and being over it?

 

And damn man, if you watch the Knicks, I wish there was more than one Marbury. He seems to be the only one who knows how to play basketball at this point. So another one wouldn't hurt.

 

The team sucks. The team will continue to suck until they stop trying to rebuild on the fly. Adding Francis means they win maybe 30-35 next year, and the year after that. That doesn't help the Knicks in the short run or long run, and the idea that the cap doesn't matter is one of the main reasons why the Knicks will not see success until next decade at the earliest. You can't win now and build for tomorrow at the same time, and quite frankly the Knicks have sucked at trying to do both for far too long now.

[Brett Favre 0]

Really? The Pacers, Mavericks, Kings, and Pistons all rebuilt while trying to win at the same time.

 

And why would we tank next year? We switch picks with Chicago if we end up worse than them. To me, adding Francis is like replacing Crawford, something I would do.

[Human Fly 0]

Adding Francis is not going to help the Knicks get to the playoffs. The team needs to be blown up and start over again. As the team is constructed now that will take years. Trading the expiring contract of Antonio Davis for Jalen Rose was stupid. Trading the expiring contract of Penny Hardaway as well as a young player with potential (be it Ariza, Frye or Robinson) for another malcontent shoot first point guard is stupid as well. Yes, getting rid of Crawford will help but not enough to justify this deal. Also, keep in mind that whatever salary they are adding will be doubled because the Knicks are far over the luxury tax limit.

 

With Babcock out as GM in Toronto Thomas is the worst GM in the league. Worse that Elgin Baylor.

 

I really like the Darko to Orlando deal for Detroit. They ship off Darko (who was just a terrible pick when you look at what they passed for him) and Arroyo who is not happy (and is probably running out of chances around the league) and get a draft pick that will probably be in the low teens as we as the cap flexibility to shore up their starting rotation for years to come.

[naiwf 0]

Really? The Pacers, Mavericks, Kings, and Pistons all rebuilt while trying to win at the same time.

 

And why would we tank next year? We switch picks with Chicago if we end up worse than them. To me, adding Francis is like replacing Crawford, something I would do.

 

The Pacers, Mavs and Kings haven't won any titles, and the Pistons have at least 5 players better than anyone on the Knicks right now. Marbury likely wouldn't even break their rotation and he's the best we can offer. More importantly, are you really saying that the Knicks are "trying to win" now? If that's their example of trying to become a championship team, then we easily have the worst management in the history of pro sports.

 

The Knicks have no players that are even all-star caliber yet we keep swapping for parts we already have at greater money/years. This is not a roto league. Francis doesn't make the team any better. Adding money doesn't make the team any better. Taking it on the chin for a couple of years, clearing off the cap damage that's been done over the last decade and trying again at that point is the only way the Knicks will succeed because we will NEVER get a legit stud through trades because we have nothing to offer, and being morons we end up getting draft picks from championship level teams that will not contribute in any way. If you're cool with your team being mired below mediocrity for 20 years, that's great, but I'm not. There is absolutely no reason for the New York Knicks to easily spend more money than any other team in pro hoops, and end up exactly 1 game above the worst record in the league, which is held by a fucking expansion team just getting their feet wet. Please stop defending these lateral moves that don't result in anything positive for the franchise. When the Bobcats and Hawks can potentially field a better squad than the Knicks, it's officially time to panic.

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

Thanks naiwf. Now I don't have to waste another 20 minutes at work trying to say the same thing.

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

Here's a little snippet I found in Sports Illustrated preview for the 2003-04 Knicks (the team that Isiah would inherit part way through the year). They were coming off a 37-45 season.

 

"How long will they keep riding the treadmill? At some point, the Knicks are going to have to rebuild for real. The question is how long they can go on importing high-priced 30-somethings before they have to pay the piper. To general manager Scott Layden's credit, he did make the Knicks a bit younger in the offseason by drafting Sweetney and Lampe and gaining five years in the Van Horn trade. But besides the rookies there isn't a key player younger than 28. The point guard is 30, the shooting guard is 32 and the key backup is 30, and the best healthy power forward is 33. Those four are signed through 2006, and their bloated contracts combine to eat up nearly the entire salary cap.

 

In other words, unless the current group ages unusually well or the Knicks find some young guys who can play, this thing could get real ugly. Until now New York's main response to the need to rebuild has been to import even more veterans and delay the process for as long as possible. That has failed the past two years, and as all the key players age, the odds of success aren't likely to improve.

 

Since they're capped out anyway, the Knicks will be tempted to keep trying this approach for the next four years, and it might help them win, say, 34 games instead of 30. But if McDyess can't make it back, the Knicks would be well advised to nuke the roster and start over. The question is whether they have the willpower to make that decision, or if a deal for another declining veteran will tempt them to forestall it further."

 

By the way, I quickly scanned their projected lineup for that year, and nearly every bad contract on that team would have been off the books by the end of 2006. I fail to see how Isiah has done one thing, any thing, to make this team even marginally better during his run.

[Brett Favre 0]

Oh, so we should do what the Hawks did? What the Bulls did for 7 years, and got nowhere? What the Clippers did? There's no one way to build. The Pistons didn't get under the cap. The only signing they made was Billups. Ben Wallace was traded to them, Sheed was traded to them, Prince was an early twenties pick, and Rip was traded to them. Tell me how being under the cap helped the Bulls for 7 years? Or how it's helped the Hawks? Getting under the cap is just a big a risk as making trades. Most players don't go to other teams because the team that has him can offer him the most money. Which is why everyone trades.

 

The Spurs got most of their shit done drafting too. Look at the good teams in the NBA. The Mavs got their shit by drafting and trading. Same shit with the Pacers, and the Heat.

[naiwf 0]

The Knicks don't make good trades and end up dumping all of the picks they made. Everyone thought the crop of Sweetney, Lampe & Vranes (?) was a decent start. Not even 3 years later all three are gone. It will not surprise me at all for Frye, Lee & Robinson to be playing elsewhere in 3 years because unless Channing's a moron he will be counting down the days before he can escape the Garden. If you can't keep players you trade for, and keep adding years you'll never get better, but maybe I'm wrong and the Knicks are secretly getting better every year when our record and cap situations get worse.

[Human Fly 0]

Oh, so we should do what the Hawks did? What the Bulls did for 7 years, and got nowhere? What the Clippers did? There's no one way to build. The Pistons didn't get under the cap. The only signing they made was Billups. Ben Wallace was traded to them, Sheed was traded to them, Prince was an early twenties pick, and Rip was traded to them. Tell me how being under the cap helped the Bulls for 7 years? Or how it's helped the Hawks? Getting under the cap is just a big a risk as making trades. Most players don't go to other teams because the team that has him can offer him the most money. Which is why everyone trades.

 

The Spurs got most of their shit done drafting too. Look at the good teams in the NBA. The Mavs got their shit by drafting and trading. Same shit with the Pacers, and the Heat.

 

The cap problems are just made worse because Thomas is not capable of making a good trade and seems to be willing to give away most of his draft picks in those trades. When you are not drafting, and cannot make good trades no cap money is a big deal.

[Brett Favre 0]

No one is asking for Frye, Lee, and Robinson like they did for Sweetney, Lampe and Vranes, so that should tell you something about the difference in talent level.

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

It's not just getting under the cap, it's having manageable contracts that can be moved in later deals. The Knicks keep getting older and bringing back guys that no other team in the league will touch at that kind of money.

 

The Pistons didn't just trade for Ben Wallace and Rip Hamilton, they got rid of Grant Hill and Jerry Stackhouse (overpaid players hitting the wrong side of 30). Rasheed was an expiring contract. They used late round picks to supplement the team, not build one.

 

You also need to draft players that franchises can be built around. The Spurs have Tim Duncan. The Mavs have Dirk Nowitzki. The Pacers have Jermaine O'Neal. The Heat have Dwayne Wade. There is a pattern here.

 

The Bulls sucked for seven years because they tried to build around young guys who you really couldn't build around (Williams, Crawford, Curry, Chandler) and overpaid junk (Rose, Davis). Funny how that sounds real similar.

 

None of these teams have situations like the Knicks. They have real GMs who are patient, know how to draft and make trades that benefit the team now and in the future. The Knicks aren't following that model. They aren't following the Hawks or the Clippers model either. They aren't following any model. They have no plan. They keep throwing shit at the wall hoping something might stick.

[Ripper 0]

I'll honestly say that getting under the cap has never helped a team become good. The Spurs drafted their championships. The Pistons traded for theirs. The Lakers traded for their recent ones. All of the good teams in the league got their by trades.

 

Unless you count teams like the Suns that cleared cap space to get Nash, but honestly, they were one or two pieces away from a great team. The Knicks aren't there yet.

 

I think the Knicks, like the Hawks are going to have to make some decisions.

 

The Hawks, I watch all the time. Josh Childress and Josh Smith are both incredibly athletic guys(Smith especially). They both have what it takes to be shut down defenders in a year or two. Childress has a better offensive game. Smith is the better shot blocker and rebounder and finisher at the basket. But they both play the same position. I think one of them will definately be stars in the league eventually, but neither of them are effective off the bench. As much as they would hate to, they have to make a decision on which guy they are going to build upon and trade the other to get the franchise moving forward. Al Harrington is NOT going to resign, trade him. He is not your future. Right now, Zaza Pachulia, Joe Johnson, and either Marvin Williams, Josh Childress or Josh Smith are your future starters. You NEED a point guard for the future...not Royal Ivy or Tyronee Lue. You NEED a real Power forward. Not just moving a 6-9 small forward their and expecting to compete. Intead they would rather hold on to alot of very talented guys that will never be able to win as a unit.

 

The Knicks are doing the same thing. Trade David Lee and Ariza and if you are going to keep larry brown, Nate Robinson and get the pieces you need. Physical Power forwards, and not the group of jump shooters you got now. Jalen Rose is a bandaid at the SF, but get a guy in his same frame, one that can actually defend. Jamal Crawfor...dude...just trade him. All these guys are talented but they will not play any part in any future that Knicks might have because they have a coach that isn't going to play them or is going to eventually kill their confidence, or they will not get the Playing time to contribute because of the logjam at their position.

[Brett Favre 0]

The cap problems are just made worse because Thomas is not capable of making a good trade and seems to be willing to give away most of his draft picks in those trades. When you are not drafting, and cannot make good trades no cap money is a big deal.

 

He gave up draft picks in the Marbury and Curry trade. That's it. He got draft picks in the Kurt Thomas trade, the Nazr Mohammed trade, and the Antonio Davis trade. But when he made the Curry trade, he got someone that he felt was better than anyone coming out in this year's upcoming draft, so I could let that pass. And Q/Nate for Kurt Thomas isn't a good trade? Sure Q is playing like crap now, but we got a building block, and in a year or so, Kurt Thomas will become unmovable because of his age and contract. The Antonio Davis trade, considering we're not going to be under the cap next year, just prolongs his contract by one year, and we got a draft pick out of that. The Crawford trade was basically a trade for expiring contracts. He's not that horrible at making trades.