Bonds, steroids, you know the drill

[jwpeer 0]

That last example is really weak as it's not possible.

 

Barry has more problems with the Feds coming after his ass.

 

 

You don't think it's possible to do enhancement surgery? Do you understand how much research there is on human muscle and skeletal structure, how much MONEY is in sports and thereby sports-medicine

 

You don't think pitchers are going to start getting tommy john surgery BEFORE they get injured? There's some call fo rit, because the tendon from your leg they transfer, is stronger than the one that's naturally there in your arm in most people. Imagine an even stronger and more durable synthetic tendon being placed in there. Do we start performing arthtroscopic surgery to test for that. What about internally implanted hormone production systems that can be explained away as the body just producing a naturally high amount of HGH, or other substances we cannot detect. Basketball doesn't even test for the substances cycling does that improve the amount of oxygen your blood cells can distribute, you don't think a basketball player that can play full speed for 48 minutes would have a HUGE advantage...or a football player? What if they find a surgical/permanent way to improve that through genetic treatment.

 

 

The possibilities are endless and very real, to think otherwise is a gross lack of knowledge of the medical sciences.

 

I may not be a doctor or a biologist, but I am familiar with the treatments and procedures out there, and have enough knowledge to know what IS physically possible within the body NOW...not even mentioning what new techniques could be developed by the right people.

[jwpeer 0]

To those making the argument that steroids were not illegal so you can't punish Bonds, please STOP. Steroids were illegal in baseball during this time frame, they just weren't being tested for. The collective bargaining agreement specifically bans all illegal substances, and last time I checked, steroids were illlegal.

 

 

That collective barganing agreement is from 2003.

 

If you read some of the excerpts, most of the information contends Bonds significant usage periods were from 1998-2001, and don't even mention him using past 2003. I would hedge my bets that he stopped using as soon as it was prohibited.

 

And by the way, I 100% feel he used lots of illegal substances, and it's a disgusting and immoral thing to do...but I don't see how people can go batshit crazy on him, and give a free pass to the 60 years before him of pro baseball players popping amphetamines like candy. Why is that not cared about...it seems grossly ignorant to me.

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

To those making the argument that steroids were not illegal so you can't punish Bonds, please STOP. Steroids were illegal in baseball during this time frame, they just weren't being tested for. The collective bargaining agreement specifically bans all illegal substances, and last time I checked, steroids were illlegal.

 

 

That collective barganing agreement is from 2003.

 

If you read some of the excerpts, most of the information contends Bonds significant usage periods were from 1998-2001, and don't even mention him using past 2003. I would hedge my bets that he stopped using as soon as it was prohibited.

 

And by the way, I 100% feel he used lots of illegal substances, and it's a disgusting and immoral thing to do...but I don't see how people can go batshit crazy on him, and give a free pass to the 60 years before him of pro baseball players popping amphetamines like candy. Why is that not cared about...it seems grossly ignorant to me.

 

From Commissioner Fay Vincent's memo to all major league baseball clubs, dated June 7, 1991:

 

"The possession, sale, use or possession of any illegal drug or controlled substance by Major League players or personnel is strictly prohibited. Major League players or personnel involved in the possession, sale, or use of any illegal drug or controlled substance are subject to disclipline by the Commissioner and risk permanent expulsion from the game.

* * *

This prohibition applies to all illegal drugs or controlled substances, including steroids or prescription drugs for which the individual in possession of the drug does not have a prescription."

[Hogan Made Wrestling 0]

To those making the argument that steroids were not illegal so you can't punish Bonds, please STOP. Steroids were illegal in baseball during this time frame, they just weren't being tested for. The collective bargaining agreement specifically bans all illegal substances, and last time I checked, steroids were illlegal.

 

 

That collective barganing agreement is from 2003.

 

If you read some of the excerpts, most of the information contends Bonds significant usage periods were from 1998-2001, and don't even mention him using past 2003. I would hedge my bets that he stopped using as soon as it was prohibited.

 

And by the way, I 100% feel he used lots of illegal substances, and it's a disgusting and immoral thing to do...but I don't see how people can go batshit crazy on him, and give a free pass to the 60 years before him of pro baseball players popping amphetamines like candy. Why is that not cared about...it seems grossly ignorant to me.

 

From Commissioner Fay Vincent's memo to all major league baseball clubs, dated June 7, 1991:

 

"The possession, sale, use or possession of any illegal drug or controlled substance by Major League players or personnel is strictly prohibited. Major League players or personnel involved in the possession, sale, or use of any illegal drug or controlled substance are subject to disclipline by the Commissioner and risk permanent expulsion from the game.

* * *

This prohibition applies to all illegal drugs or controlled substances, including steroids or prescription drugs for which the individual in possession of the drug does not have a prescription."

 

So does that mean everyone who has used coke, speed, painkillers, and so on should be banned from baseball and have their records erased?

[Guest StylesMark]

That's all well and good. I agree, they have been illegal for years. But, without a positive drug test (which is MLB's fault) I don't see how you can take the man's stats away.

 

And I agree with Rant. Screw MLB, Bond's better watch out for the feds.

[Guest Princess Leena]

I haven't read the book yet, so it's speculation... but, I think it would be near impossible to get Bonds on any federal charges. At least on the perjury portion. Which is why we're never going to hear Barry come clean with this stuff... like the media is wanting him to do. He's dug too far into his grave.

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

I don't think that you can take his stats away. That's a slippery slope when you start getting into the validity of his MVPs, the effects on other pitchers, the 2002 World Series appearance, etc.

 

However, if the commissioner feels that Bonds should be banned from the game and not allowed in the Hall, he has the right to do so. Bonds violated the rules and sanctity of the game and got caught. We can argue forever about who was doing what when, but this is the first case where there is actual evidence that the man cheated. If there is a criminal investigation into his illegal doings, it further solidifies the stance against him.

[The Czech Republic 0]

Performance enhancing substances were not illegal in baseball when barry bonds or -anyone- else was using them, so why would you punish someone now for something that was permitted.

 

Say they made drinking alcohol illegal again, and they found out you did it yesterday, and went to arrest you because you did something that's illegal now, in the past.

YOU DUMB DICK. IT'S CLEARLY BEEN SAID THEY WERE. Schedule III drug, illegal without a valid prescription, and it's BEEN that way since he's been on them. Baseball isn't a sovereign state. If something is illegal in the United States, it's going to be just as illegal in the Giants' ballpark.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

There is a precedent set for this in sports, within college basketball. Michigan had to "vacate" past victories when it was busted for booster payments in the 90's - how exactly did they tidy up the record book for that?

 

Not that I'm saying erase Bonds' home runs entirely - I'm just curious how they dealt with Michigan in that case. Personally, I don't think baseball should erase his entire season, but baseball can choose not to recognize it (if it was achieved through illegal means) and, furthermore, they can revoke his individual awards (MVP) that year and either allow the writers to vote again or simply give them to the second place vote recipient. The latter would mean that MVPs would go to Albert Pujols, Sammy Sosa, and Adrian Beltre.

 

The NCAA record book from that period looks like swiss cheese thanks to the decision. I'm not comfortable at all with making that move, for reasons I stated earlier. Besides, it does not make anyone really feel better about themselves. Is Albert Pujols going to get excited because of a retroactive MVP? And of course, you'd be giving an MVP award to a guy who may have used steroids himself in Sosa, just to punish Bonds. That seems illogical, and certainly undesireable.

 

MLB is in a bind over this. Fortunately, we have something much stronger at work, and that is the court of public opinion. Baseball honestly doesn't need an asterik, because fans are going to look at Bonds' play and remember that he probably abused steroids.

 

The book is mostly hearsay and I think you could punch holes in it, given time. However, Bonds almost certainly used steroids at some point, and he is a big boy and must deal with the consequences of his own decisions. If he breaks the record, so be it. I don't need to watch Barry Bonds to enjoy baseball. There are too many good things about the sport to let this work me up.

[Fökai 0]

On a side note, ESPN reported that there were BALCO doctors who had proof that claimed that Bonds was paying for and injecting as early as January of 1997, which the authors of the book deny. If accusations are going to be thrown at Bonds with little or no merit, the authors' reputation will be soiled by association.

[Bruiser Chong 0]

I'm just tired of hearing about it. He gets enough press as it is, but when the 'roids are an issue, that's the only baseball you hear about. I was watching ESPN News just now and they were talking about (surprise!). The anchor said, "Bonds did not play at all today. Pedro Gomez has that story..."

 

WHAT STORY?!

[Guest Princess Leena]

Is there anyone that doesn't want to strangle Pedro Gomez. Seriously.

[Mik 0]

Honestly - it's not Pedro Gomez's fault.

 

He got assigned to cover Bonds and his pursuit of the homerun record. Next thing you know - Bonds became embattled over steroids.

 

Pedro Gomez probably thought he was getting the story of a lifetime, now he's been steroid boy for about three years and counting. I mean, he's still getting on TV all the time, but it's probably not quite what he pictured.

[Richard 0]

Looks like baseball isn't the only sport with this problem

[Vern Gagne 0]

What if Bonds comes clean? Admits the allegations are correct. What does that do to his HOF chances?

[Krankor 0]

If Bonds comes clean he has no chance to ever be in the HOF. Pete Rose would have a better chance than Bonds.

[Guest Princess Leena]

Ok, these dorky guys that wrote the Bonds book may be worse than Pedro Gomez. They're following me to every sports show I watch or listen to. Fuck you, Barry... I want to hear insults about Canada beating the US.

[2GOLD 0]

Ok, these dorky guys that wrote the Bonds book may be worse than Pedro Gomez. They're following me to every sports show I watch or listen to. Fuck you, Barry... I want to hear insults about Canada beating the US.

 

Ever notice anyone who does a story or anything related to Barry Bonds just becomes a giant annoying asshole within a week? Gomez, these book writers, Jon Morgan and Jeff Kent. I mean what the hell? Is Barry Bonds asshole talk about me persona contagious or something?

[dh86 0]

I don't think that you can take his stats away. That's a slippery slope when you start getting into the validity of his MVPs, the effects on other pitchers, the 2002 World Series appearance, etc.

 

However, if the commissioner feels that Bonds should be banned from the game and not allowed in the Hall, he has the right to do so. Bonds violated the rules and sanctity of the game and got caught. We can argue forever about who was doing what when, but this is the first case where there is actual evidence that the man cheated. If there is a criminal investigation into his illegal doings, it further solidifies the stance against him.

 

ok so what about everyone who has ever tested positive for steroids,corked a bat, used vaseline,sandpaper in the past?

[dh86 0]

Baseball can't and shouldn't do a damned thing.

 

Performance enhancing substances were not illegal in baseball when barry bonds or -anyone- else was using them, so why would you punish someone now for something that was permitted.

 

Say they made drinking alcohol illegal again, and they found out you did it yesterday, and went to arrest you because you did something that's illegal now, in the past.

 

 

i find it ridiculous that people even entertain the idea that he should be punished. all your favorite players for the last 70-80 years have been taking amphetamines when they needed a boost, and there's no way to determine just how many/exactly who, so why not assume they all were and totally reset the record books, period.

 

But not really, because they were part of the game. What about stuff like tommy john surgery, in a way that's bio-modification, you're moving tendons around. Why doesn't someone get 3 or 4 tendons moved into their arm, or have their muscles/skeleton redsigned so they can pitch 99 mph as much as they want with no wear. It's not illegal or against the rules, and who knows how soon it may happen...but it will, and that's even harder to police.

 

exactly..people have been cheating and taking shortcuts in sports from the beginning...baseball cant do a damn thing to Barry Bonds unless he fails their drug test...or maybe if they catch him on video using steroids...no matter if theres a paper trail...it is still hearsay and Major League Baseball cant use testimony from a SEALED court document to punish him...yes Barry has used steroids...but how many players have been banned and has had their records erased because of it?..I can show a bunch of before and after pictures of players from 5 years ago to today

[dh86 0]

No need for this book. Especially since Bonds already admitted he used steroids, although "unknowingly". Because he just likes rubbing creams and whatever on his body for the fun of it.

 

And I'm an idiot for disagreeing with #2. IMO, if you're caught cheating, your stats should be null and void. Especially in a sport like baseball, where stats are so important.

You can asterik stats, but you can't erase them. Baseball's a zero sum game where one success is marked as a failure of another. If we wipe out Bonds' RBIs, that messes with team totals, opponents' records, and a host of other problems in the accounting. Plus, why do we target Bonds and not anyone else? Do we erase the records of any minor leaguers or scrubs we catch? It's a shaky road to walk down.

 

There is a precedent set for this in sports, within college basketball. Michigan had to "vacate" past victories when it was busted for booster payments in the 90's - how exactly did they tidy up the record book for that?

 

Not that I'm saying erase Bonds' home runs entirely - I'm just curious how they dealt with Michigan in that case. Personally, I don't think baseball should erase his entire season, but baseball can choose not to recognize it (if it was achieved through illegal means) and, furthermore, they can revoke his individual awards (MVP) that year and either allow the writers to vote again or simply give them to the second place vote recipient. The latter would mean that MVPs would go to Albert Pujols, Sammy Sosa, and Adrian Beltre.

 

with Michigan...they just make the records of the seasons 0-0 and took down the banners and if they had won a championship..it would just be vacated....but again...Sammy Sosa was found with a corked bat...and he 'may' have used steroids..wipe away his records too?...its an iffy subject matter

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

I don't think that you can take his stats away. That's a slippery slope when you start getting into the validity of his MVPs, the effects on other pitchers, the 2002 World Series appearance, etc.

 

However, if the commissioner feels that Bonds should be banned from the game and not allowed in the Hall, he has the right to do so. Bonds violated the rules and sanctity of the game and got caught. We can argue forever about who was doing what when, but this is the first case where there is actual evidence that the man cheated. If there is a criminal investigation into his illegal doings, it further solidifies the stance against him.

 

ok so what about everyone who has ever tested positive for steroids,corked a bat, used vaseline,sandpaper in the past?

 

You are seriously missing the point of what I am saying. MLB now has tests for steroid usage and has certified punishments based on this usage. It was written into the current collective bargaining agreement. That is not the same issue that we are discussing here.

 

If the allegations in this book are to be believed, Bonds had possession of large amounts of illegal substances. He used false identities to obtain controlled over the counter drugs. He had steroids shipped to him (which equates to drug trafficking). These are federal offenses. Pending an investigation, the Commissioner possesses the right under the MLB Constitution (which supercedes the CBA) to expel him from the game for detrimental conduct.

 

It is not the same as using a corked bat or sandpaper and to compare the two is ridiculous.

[dh86 0]

I don't think that you can take his stats away. That's a slippery slope when you start getting into the validity of his MVPs, the effects on other pitchers, the 2002 World Series appearance, etc.

 

However, if the commissioner feels that Bonds should be banned from the game and not allowed in the Hall, he has the right to do so. Bonds violated the rules and sanctity of the game and got caught. We can argue forever about who was doing what when, but this is the first case where there is actual evidence that the man cheated. If there is a criminal investigation into his illegal doings, it further solidifies the stance against him.

 

ok so what about everyone who has ever tested positive for steroids,corked a bat, used vaseline,sandpaper in the past?

 

You are seriously missing the point of what I am saying. MLB now has tests for steroid usage and has certified punishments based on this usage. It was written into the current collective bargaining agreement. That is not the same issue that we are discussing here.

 

If the allegations in this book are to be believed, Bonds had possession of large amounts of illegal substances. He used false identities to obtain controlled over the counter drugs. He had steroids shipped to him (which equates to drug trafficking). These are federal offenses. Pending an investigation, the Commissioner possesses the right under the MLB Constitution (which supercedes the CBA) to expel him from the game for detrimental conduct.

 

It is not the same as using a corked bat or sandpaper and to compare the two is ridiculous.

 

if actual documents are made public of that..then i would agree with you.as long as hes investigated AND convicted of those things

[Kaertos 0]

Nobody (that I know of) caught Pete Rose on videotape placing a bet on or against the Reds. There was no magic "test" for him to take that would say "yup, he's scum." They investigated him, found hard proof he was gambling on his own team and kicked him out of the game.

 

To me, this is the closest precedent we have. The investigation needs to be performed by a third party (mostly confirming what the books say) and then a decision made.

 

In my opinion, Barry Bonds has become a massive detrement and a danger to the game of baseball. Get rid of him. I'll not shed tear number one.

 

As for the other high-profile abusers, do the same if you can. They should share the same punishment.

[dh86 0]

Nobody (that I know of) caught Pete Rose on videotape placing a bet on or against the Reds. There was no magic "test" for him to take that would say "yup, he's scum." They investigated him, found hard proof he was gambling on his own team and kicked him out of the game.

 

To me, this is the closest precedent we have. The investigation needs to be performed by a third party (mostly confirming what the books say) and then a decision made.

 

In my opinion, Barry Bonds has become a massive detrement and a danger to the game of baseball. Get rid of him. I'll not shed tear number one.

 

As for the other high-profile abusers, do the same if you can. They should share the same punishment.

 

yes they did have proof and pete ended up facing criminal charges and got sent to prison not too long after that..but the huge difference is that betting on baseball has always been a bannable offense dating back prior to te black sox scandal..baseball took a blind eye to mcgwire,sosa,canseco,bagwell,giambi,bonds, etc putting up huge numbers making baseball money for years and they didnt take any action on steroids until congress steps in..it would bother me a whole lot if barry bonds is made to be the sole scapegoat for 20+ years of bloated players and numbers..if u wipe out or asterisk bonds stats..you may as well wipe out the whole record book last 10 years minimum

[The Czech Republic 0]

dh86 is helping a brother out.

[Guest Princess Leena]

dh86,is helping..abrother out

[dh86 0]

dh86 is helping a brother out.

 

ok?

[CanadianChris 0]

CNN is reporting that Bonds is being investigated by the feds on possible perjury charges stemming from his grand jury testimony in '03.

 

Story

[bobobrazil1984 0]

as far as I'm concerned, the whole of MLB is illegitimate since i think they knew the widespread use and did nothign about it. it may as well be WWE for all I care now.