Comments which don't warrant a thread

[foleyfanforever88 0]

http://www.wwe.com/superstars/wherearetheynow/paulbearer

 

They got him out of the cement in time to keep him alive! And he's not Undertaker's real dad!

 

You mean Kane's dad.

 

Actually I meant Dominick's dad.

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

Jesus Christ.

 

It's funny how people forget that Orton got over on his own merits as Intercontinental Champion, with his 'virtually no charisma' and 'simple promos', before he was killed by bad booking. He's nowhere near as bad as everybody rejoices in making out (at least he knows how to sell a bodypart, unlike a certain WWE Champion). Funny to think he was an IWC darling a few years ago for taking a thumbtack bump. How times change.

 

Got over on his own merits? Are we talking about the year where he got to hang out with the most over heel in the company, cleanly beat 90% of the roster, soundly embarrass a number of wrestling legends and beat the piss out of Mick Foley for 3 or 4 months? That year? Yeah, he definitely got over on his own merits.

 

It's really annoying when people act like Orton has been plagued by bad booking when he got to look like a million bucks for 2 or 3 years when he wasn't worth a shit in the ring or on the mic.

[Hoff 0]

It's really annoying when people act like Orton has been plagued by bad booking when he got to look like a million bucks for 2 or 3 years when he wasn't worth a shit in the ring or on the mic.

The two aren't mutually exclusive. Orton was a charter member of Evolution and made out to be the next big deal. Since losing the World Title to HHH a month after he won it, he's been made to look like a punk almost constantly. Only now is he getting a legitamately solid program to work with, two and a half years after his last worthwhile run.

[The Niggardly King 0]

That's because Randy Orton sucks.

[Hoff 0]

*elephant noise*

[Corkscrew_Senton 0]

Hey, Carlito and Corkscrew. When you're talking directly to one another, you don't need to quote the entire conversation in every post. The rest of us are quick enough to follow along.

 

Hey, Jericho2000Mark -- you suck! But wait, let's delve into it a bit more. You touch on something interesting amidst your "I hate everyone Hoff loves" rant -- the HBK kip-up spot. We all know the spot; Michaels has been getting his ass kicked for, like, a year, and then POW, he's on his feet. Clearly he must have a poor grasp of in-ring psychology!

 

WRONG

 

Here's the thing. Pro wrestling is not amateur wrestling. It's not mixed martial arts, it's not shoot fighting, it's nothing close to real fighting of any kind. It's a form of physical storytelling, more akin to a comic book than anything else. Yes, it is a form of sport, and it should logically follow. But to sacrifice drama for the sake of logic is not only boring, but it doesn't sell tickets. The reason that the live crowds cheer like mad for that spot is because they want to see the hero come back from the brink of oblivion. They want to see him regain his strength to vanquish a deadly foe. That's why the formula has worked so well for so long. Michaels bumps like a pinball, making his opponent look like a killer, then finds the inner fire to come back and win against overwhelming odds. It's the same thing Cena does, and thus far, that formula has worked well for the E.

 

Never mind the overlooked point by anyone who criticizes the spot -- that it's NOT out of nowhere. Usually, Michaels will counter a move, hit some chops, maybe an atomic drop, then usually hits the flying forearm before the kippup. Formulaic, yes, but hardly "out of nowhere."

 

J2M, I'm not meaning to single you out or start a fight, you're totally entitled to your view. You just happened to mention the kip-up spot, which always gets criticized, and I wanted to provide a counterpoint that maybe it's not such bad psychology -- just not what you or others may appreciate.

 

Yeah!

 

Come again?

[Hoff 0]

Cute.

 

EDIT: Wait, that's not cute at all.

[King Cucaracha 0]

Jesus Christ.

 

It's funny how people forget that Orton got over on his own merits as Intercontinental Champion, with his 'virtually no charisma' and 'simple promos', before he was killed by bad booking. He's nowhere near as bad as everybody rejoices in making out (at least he knows how to sell a bodypart, unlike a certain WWE Champion). Funny to think he was an IWC darling a few years ago for taking a thumbtack bump. How times change.

 

Got over on his own merits? Are we talking about the year where he got to hang out with the most over heel in the company, cleanly beat 90% of the roster, soundly embarrass a number of wrestling legends and beat the piss out of Mick Foley for 3 or 4 months? That year? Yeah, he definitely got over on his own merits.

 

Yeah, pretty much that year I'd say. He got over before Foley came along. Did he get put with Evolution? Yeah and he held his own well enough to get over. Did he get a jump-start because of the Legend Killer gimmick? Yeah, that's the point of gimmicks, genius. What do you class as 'own merits', exactly, because by your standards nobody got over on their own merits everything was booked for them.

 

It's really annoying when people act like Orton has been plagued by bad booking when he got to look like a million bucks for 2 or 3 years when he wasn't worth a shit in the ring or on the mic.

 

The hot-shot face turn was terrible booking. His entire feud with Taker was terrible booking. He's barely won a match all year. Up until the face turn he was over, which COINCIDENTALY just happened to be when he was booked correctly. Gee whizz, I wonder why he's not as popular now as he was then, maybe he just plain sucks! Or maybe it's bad booking, turning him face when he's clearly not able to pull the role off?

[Black Lushus 0]

while Orton has his faults, he's been the victim of some super shitty booking...King C has already pointed it out and if you folks can't see that, I don't know what else to say. I've never seen someone that management was so high on get such shitty booking like Orton has.

[2GOLD 0]

while Orton has his faults, he's been the victim of some super shitty booking...King C has already pointed it out and if you folks can't see that, I don't know what else to say. I've never seen someone that management was so high on get such shitty booking like Orton has.

 

I used to hate the guy until I've seen the finishes he gets lately. I still dislike him but man, the guy can't catch a break in a match finish.

[USC Wuz Robbed! 0]

It's the guy's fault for pissing off WWE every damned time they begin to warm up to pushing him credibly.

[Jericho2000Mark 0]

Hey, Carlito and Corkscrew. When you're talking directly to one another, you don't need to quote the entire conversation in every post. The rest of us are quick enough to follow along.

 

Hey, Jericho2000Mark -- you suck! But wait, let's delve into it a bit more. You touch on something interesting amidst your "I hate everyone Hoff loves" rant -- the HBK kip-up spot. We all know the spot; Michaels has been getting his ass kicked for, like, a year, and then POW, he's on his feet. Clearly he must have a poor grasp of in-ring psychology!

 

WRONG

 

Here's the thing. Pro wrestling is not amateur wrestling. It's not mixed martial arts, it's not shoot fighting, it's nothing close to real fighting of any kind. It's a form of physical storytelling, more akin to a comic book than anything else. Yes, it is a form of sport, and it should logically follow. But to sacrifice drama for the sake of logic is not only boring, but it doesn't sell tickets. The reason that the live crowds cheer like mad for that spot is because they want to see the hero come back from the brink of oblivion. They want to see him regain his strength to vanquish a deadly foe. That's why the formula has worked so well for so long. Michaels bumps like a pinball, making his opponent look like a killer, then finds the inner fire to come back and win against overwhelming odds. It's the same thing Cena does, and thus far, that formula has worked well for the E.

 

Never mind the overlooked point by anyone who criticizes the spot -- that it's NOT out of nowhere. Usually, Michaels will counter a move, hit some chops, maybe an atomic drop, then usually hits the flying forearm before the kippup. Formulaic, yes, but hardly "out of nowhere."

 

J2M, I'm not meaning to single you out or start a fight, you're totally entitled to your view. You just happened to mention the kip-up spot, which always gets criticized, and I wanted to provide a counterpoint that maybe it's not such bad psychology -- just not what you or others may appreciate.

 

Yeah!

 

Wait, if you love everyone I hate, does that mean you're actually a Randy Orton fan? And if so, may I ask WHY? Seriously, I don't get the Orton love, HBK I can see, because he has charisma and his matches appeal to a large number of the fanbase, but what does Orton have to offer?

[Jericho2000Mark 0]

4. Randy Orton. He's below average in all aspects, is boring to watch, has practically no psychology (bodyslam...chinlock, clothesline...chinlock), executes his moves poorly, has virtually no charisma and fumbles his rather simple promos. Easily the least talented and least deserving wrestler ever to hold a major World Title, he belongs in the low-midcard at best, and would be enhancement talent if not for his family.

 

Jesus Christ.

 

It's funny how people forget that Orton got over on his own merits as Intercontinental Champion, with his 'virtually no charisma' and 'simple promos', before he was killed by bad booking. He's nowhere near as bad as everybody rejoices in making out (at least he knows how to sell a bodypart, unlike a certain WWE Champion). Funny to think he was an IWC darling a few years ago for taking a thumbtack bump. How times change.

 

I don't recall him being all that over at any point, or an IWC darling to anything more than a select few. Anyone who liked him simply for taking a thumbtack bump is a moron. He could barely draw midcard heat before he went over Foley, and even after that he was still the least over wrestler in the main event/upper midard.

 

Actually, funny story, I was at Backlash a couple years ago when he went over Foley, and after the show Orton and Batista stopped their car to sign autographs. Everyone rushed to Batista's window, and only some fat chick and a 12 year old boy went to Orton's. Batista wasn't even on the card.

[Hoff 0]

Here's my deal on Orton. The guy isn't a great showman; he's not a spot machine, and he's not a great talker (though he does have his moments when he actually sounds passionate, instead of constipated). But he's a good old-school heel. He emotes in the ring, even if it is over the top. His moveset isn't spectacular, but he manages to make what he does look good. Note the way he looms as he circles a guy, and you'll note he doesn't just stomp the body; if he's worked a certain part, he'll go after it. As much as everyone decries his chinlocks, he usually works his rests and spots in a good rythym, resulting in a rollercoaster type of feel -- up-tempo, then down, then up, then down again. It's not as exciting to watch as some, but it's dramatically compelling. The big moves he does have he hits very well: dropkick, weird backbreaker, clothesline, RKO. And while that's not exactly a huge repetoire, it's enough to hang with a Benoit or Michaels who can set the pace.

 

In general, he seems to get the storytelling aspect of wrestling, and his ringwork isn't bad at all -- just more deliberate. I could never, EVER buy him as a top face for that reason, but as a heel it works for me. I think it's a shame he doesn't have two or three more inches and 30 pounds on his frame, as he'd fit well as a "monster heel" with his size and offense. But I still like him.

[Guest robrabies]

I actually like Orton a lot. I think that he's in his element when he's allowed to be himself--a cocky, dickhead heel. Some of his mic work is actually pretty good. The stairwell promo at WM XX and the promo he cut on Mean Gene at WM 22 are a couple of examples. He's an old school heel in a new school environment, which makes him seem like a bit of a square peg at times, but he knows how to sell, and he's got a logical moveset for his character with one of the most over finishers in the company.

 

All his shitty booking aside, I think he really got fucked over by Hogan. He should have put Orton over, especially with a torn meniscus. Had he done so, Orton would have been the next logical challenger for Cena after Edge.

[Superfly Snuka 0]

It's the guy's fault for pissing off WWE every damned time they begin to warm up to pushing him credibly.

You do mean "crapping", right?

[Lil' Bitch 0]

This is why Orton should be win at Backlash

 

1.) He got fucked over by bad booking to begin with. He should have never jobbed the title to HHH the month after he won it. While he has been an ass at times, I think RKO definitely deserves a second chance plus I think he could get back over with the fans as a top heel if they let him climb to the top of the mountain. You may hate the guy, but there was a time where fans were actually cheering him over Shelton Benjamin and Chris Benoit!

 

2.) Everybody is sick to death of John Cena still being the WWE Champion.

 

3.) While it would be nice to see again, HBK wouldn't want to go back to working full-time.

 

4.) Last time I checked, Edge is still injured and shouldn't even be in the match?

[billdynamite 0]

I caught quite a bit of Raw this week, and although I have nothing against Orton, he shouldn't win the title because he simply isn't over. I know i've questioned Cena's overness in the past, but the guy is majorly over and gets a huge reaction, i think he'd get a ridiculously huge reaction if he was CHASING the title. Edge is a great heel and will always get heat (if he was a chicken shit heel champ, and kept ducking Cena, the crowd would eat that shit up). HBK still gets a good reaction (i really prefer him as a cocky heel, shame he bashes the bible). But the crowd always seem flat around Orton. I don't think they care about him one way or another. He hasn't really been made to look like a legit title threat, he's just sort of... been there, in the middle of it all and been dragged in. There was really no reason to give him a #1 contenders match, that didn't make any sense to me. He was only in the Cena/HBK/Edge mix because he and Edge were "buddies" a little while ago.

 

If Orton is gonna be champ, he needs a decent built to look like a threat because right now, nobody buys Orton.

[Mecca 0]

John Cena is like Triple H and his reign of terror we might aswell accept that he's likely going to carry this belt for most of the year and when he does lose will likely regain it within a month.

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

Orton has been a victim of bad booking sure, but it isn't his biggest problem. Even as an in-ring wrestler he is pretty good. But he is so bloody generic in every aspect of his character and style that I can't see him ever getting a sustained positive reaction, either as a face or a heel. His promos in particular come off as more whiny than cocky, and that isn't a good thing.

 

Say what you will about the talent of guys like John Cena & Triple H, but people notice when they come to the ring. They have charisma that Orton lacks. Edge was as bad as Orton as a face, but he was able to use his natural charisma to build off of his heel turn and became a top guy because of it. Guys like Chris Benoit & Dave Finlay aren't the best talkers by any stretch of the imagination, but they have a great ring presence and have stayed consistantly over for years because of it (especially Benoit). RVD blows in the ring and on the mic, but his laid back persona appeals to a large number of the fans, especially young males. Even Khali & Umaga, who are terrible wrestlers, have that freakshow image that make people take notice. Orton is simply boring, which is about the worst thing you can be in professional wrestling. He's the most bland character on the show, aside from maybe Bobby Lashley. There is nothing about Orton that stands out aside from his frequent suspensions and the recent steroid scandal. And those aren't things to build a career off of.

[mysterious_w 0]

Umaga is a terrible wrestler? I thought so too until seeing the first couple non-squash matches of his, now I think he's solid enough.

 

Thinking about it, I wish he was still in the WWE title picture rather than getting dragged into the crappy Lashley/McMahon angle.

[Atticus Chaos 0]

I caught quite a bit of Raw this week, and although I have nothing against Orton, he shouldn't win the title because he simply isn't over. But the crowd always seem flat around Orton. I don't think they care about him one way or another. He hasn't really been made to look like a legit title threat, he's just sort of... been there, in the middle of it all and been dragged in. There was really no reason to give him a #1 contenders match, that didn't make any sense to me. He was only in the Cena/HBK/Edge mix because he and Edge were "buddies" a little while ago.

 

If Orton is gonna be champ, he needs a decent built to look like a threat because right now, nobody buys Orton.

Orton's been pretty over recently, he's been getting a lot of face pops. Check out the reaction at the cutting edge prior ot Mania. He got a good reaction this week as well.

[Lt. Al Giardello 0]

RNN got Randy Orton over, everyone knows that.

[Dobbs 3K 0]

They should kind of book Orton as the opposite of Edge. Whereas Edge is a chickenshit coward, they should play up Randy Orton's vicious streak. He has kind of a mean southern vibe to him, kind of like his dad, or Dick Murdoch, etc.

 

Have him play up how he can beat anyone in the ring. Have him cheat to win, and deliberately try to hurt people. They wouldn't have to book him as an unbeatable monster. Just have him be the guy who will beat a lower midcard guy without breaking a sweat, and then grab a chair and break the guy's leg just for fun. I wouldn't mind if they gave him a tag team partner again. I really liked the interaction he had with Edge.

 

That'd get him over, and fit in with his personality (or at least give him some kind of personality).

[Guest robrabies]

Gogo hit the nail on the head. Orton is over, and he's been getting face pops. The writers should run with this. 1) They should allow him to play a tweener to Edge's chickenshit heel, and 2) They should go back to some of his truly dickheaded moments like spitting in Harley Race's face or setting the Undertaker's casket on fire.

[Guest robrabies]

Have him play up how he can beat anyone in the ring. Have him cheat to win, and deliberately try to hurt people. They wouldn't have to book him as an unbeatable monster. Just have him be the guy who will beat a lower midcard guy without breaking a sweat, and then grab a chair and break the guy's leg just for fun. I wouldn't mind if they gave him a tag team partner again. I really liked the interaction he had with Edge.

 

That'd get him over, and fit in with his personality (or at least give him some kind of personality).

 

Yup. Have him recreate the Austin/Pillman ankle breaking spot on the likes of Super Crazy, Carlito, Flair, Dykstra, whomever.

[King Cucaracha 0]

Orton has always struck me as a good old-school kind of guy. He doesn't have a lot of standout qualities which makes some people mistake that for him being bad at things, where-as he's perfectly good at them. He does the little things really well, although perhaps doesn't do some of the big things as well. The one standout thing he's got going for him I'd say, he's a good bumper. Not a 'Jeff Hardy' good bumper where he does crazy stuff to get over, but someone who sells moves effectively.

 

By the by, I'm not saying I want Orton as World Champion right now. I'm not THAT big of a fan of his. He does tend to need a 'crutch' when he's in the main event, something or someone to play off.

 

Guys like Chris Benoit & Dave Finlay aren't the best talkers by any stretch of the imagination, but they have a great ring presence and have stayed consistantly over for years because of it (especially Benoit).

 

I like Finlay, but he gets out-popped by a leprechaun. They had to pull the plug on his face-turn because he wasn't getting a reaction, if I recall.

 

Even Khali & Umaga, who are terrible wrestlers, have that freakshow image that make people take notice.

 

I wouldn't call Umaga 'terrible'. I never used to be a fan but ever since he came back from his run with All Japan he's been really effective and efficient at what he actually does. He probably made Cena look as good as anyone since this 'Superman' run began, he managed to make the feud with Kane watchable. The gimmick is no great shakes, but the guy has made the most of it.

[Guest Kesh]

alright this is a really random question but if anyone had the answers i would greatly appreciate it

 

does anyone know the name of the music that is playing in the opening videos of wrestlemania X8 or XIX? I mean the instermental one, or not even just those some of the ones that WWE uses in vid packages and other sports use?

[The Niggardly King 0]

I'll only say this once, Cena is probably the best worker in the company right now. Umaga is a solid guy, not "terrible". Orton, like many of the guys in his age and position... can be good when they're motivated.

[mysterious_w 0]

I really want to know what criteria you judge that on where John Cena beats Benoit, Finlay, RVD, Hardy(s) and everyone else. Selling? Bumping? Offense? Structuring a match? Because in my opinion he's best in none of those, or even top 5 in any category.