WON News + Notes, January 8th Issue

[JN News 0]

The story behind HBK's promo on Raw this week was that he was attacking TNA's James Gang (when he spoke of people who used to be big stars and are now certain jerking somewhere else) and also Bret Hart and Kurt Angle (when he talked about those who calls themselves 'the best in-ring performers in the world'). Michaels legitimatly feels that he (or maybe he and Flair together) is the best in-ring performer of modern times and has a genuine resents others who claim they are.

 

 

 

 

Typical HBGay trying to spit in Bret Hart's face. I always felt that Brokeback Hickeybottom was just as overrated as HHHonker. They seriously need to STFU, and leave Bret alone.

 

 

What the fuck is wrong with you.

 

 

 

Don't start.

[The Niggardly King 0]

Thanks for posting as always.

 

George Murdoch who debuted on the 12/26 Smackdown house show is 6'8 and 375lbs. No guessing as to why he was called up to the main roster without even being on Deep South TV then. He only started training in August. He got recuited when some wrestlers spotted him working as a bouncer in LA and Dreamer said that with his size he should enrole in UPW but Murdoch said he wasn't interested. Dreamer took his phone number and Laurinitis rang him soon after and signed him immediatly.

 

I shudder to think of what this company is going to look like in ten years. Anyone with wrestling talent is left in the development territories and big lugs keep getting called up the big stage that have little to no respect for the business. The product is just going to get even more unwatchable and I shudder at the thought.

 

Vince will be dead. Things will get better with Triple H in charge... though they will still be pretty bad because of Stephanie, but I have a feeling they will greatly improve once H is in charge.

[Ginger Snaps 0]

I think Bret Hart is terribly overrated for his ring work.

 

So is Shawn Michaels.

[J.T. 0]

The problem with Austin and Flair for "greatest ever" is that there are serious spans of there career that they were average-suck. Post Mid 97 to Mid 01, Austin's great matches were few and far between. Flair since 94 has the same problem. Plus, Austin's Punch-Kick-Brawl to the outside-Sig moves-Trade finisher’s formula is terrible predictable and very boring. Slick Ric's formula is also quite known, and quite played.

 

Angle pathetic ignorance for working an ankle to go to his ankle lock and just a general lack of understanding to how wrestling psychology works makes him off my top 4.

 

Its HBK, Benoit, Owen and Bret

[Jericho2000Mark 0]

Bret never got as bad as Michaels is today, nor did he ever negate psychology to the degree Michaels did and still does, or work as basic and predictable of a formula as Michaels does. Not to mention most of Bret's matches still hold up today and Michaels haven't aged well at all, IMO. Bret will always be completely better than Michaels to anyone who understands wrestling.

[Promoter 0]

The age old Bret vs. Shawn. No matter which side someone chooses it says a ton that there is no heated debate with any new guys as this rivalry 10 years ago about who was better. The 5 moves of doom name was made for Bret in 1996-97 and in retrospect wasn't warranted. HBK IS ridiculous with how he works matches today. The only REAL time I see REAL HBK of his prime since his comeback have been the elimination chamber where he won the belt(which was dumb because he looked way too wimpy to survive that match back then), Jericho at WM 17, Angle at WM 21, and Hogan at SummerSlam(strictly for the way he pulled off his Diesel/Shawn stunt of WM 11 with Hogan). I don't think Bret would be dogging his matches the way HBK has been doing since his comeback for the most part and I'm talking the psychology. Then again, look at who the hell he has to work with in the new bunch, lol. HBK was actually DX HBK this past week for friggin once. Of course, if we ask HBK he will say differently that he has put on clinics with HHH since his return and had a better feud than Austin did with Vince.

 

So, in 10 years the age old question will be who is better? Orton or Cena? LOL

[Jericho2000Mark 0]

Yeah, he might of used those same five moves, but he mostly used them near the finish, HBK and Flair use the same 5 or 6 moves THE ENTIRE MATCH.

[LucharesuFan619 0]

Thanks for posting these Decembrists!

[UseTheSledgehammerUh 0]

"HBK... used the same 5 or 6 moves THE ENTIRE MATCH."

 

Aside from the near flawless transitions and MONSTER selling, plus sick bumps Michaels took when he was at his peak ('94-'97), let's analyze that:

 

Michaels regularly performed the following maneuevers:

 

Flying Forearm

Kip-Up

Inverted Atomic Drop

Sweet Chin Music (Finisher)

Moonsault

Diving Cross-Body to the Arena Floor

Frankensteiner

Skin the Cat into the ring

Vertical Suplex

Figure-Four Leglock

Jumping Piledriver

Flying Elbowdrop

Baseball Slide Dropkick

Two-Legged Under-Arm Hook from Behind

Top-Rope Flying Axehandle

Leaping Straddle onto Opponent in the Ropes

Standard Piledriver

Shin-Held Backdrop Suplex (Finisher)

 

This one time he even put someone in the Sharpshooter...

 

That's just thinking of one or two matches. So stop with "the same 5-6 moves!" That's ridiculous.

 

Ric Flair, on the other hand, sometimes would wrestle the same exact match every single week on Nitro and not even get to 5 or 6. I can provide details of 9-10 weeks in a row AT LEAST where each match was "Cower, chop, big backdrop, face no-sells the chops, Flair gets an elbow in, up top, slammed off the top, finish." But to claim Michaels, who BUMPED LIKE A MADMAN for Razor, Sid, Diesel, Bret, Owen, Austin, Vader, Bulldog, Mankind, Taker, HELL EVERYONE on a weekly basis went out there and did a routine "5 moves, finish" for a match is lunacy.

[Prophet of Mike Zagurski 0]

Close this thread. This debate will last forever. It will go no where. I watch WWF wrestling and I like Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels.

[The Niggardly King 0]

It's not about having the most moves... it's about knowing when to use them.

 

Steve Austin at is peak didn't need to use most of his moveset, because it didn't fit his gimmick.

 

Michaels is unbearably bad these days, but he's been wrestling through injuries, and hasn't really had any great opponents this year.

[J.T. 0]

Bret never got as bad as Michaels is today, nor did he ever negate psychology to the degree Michaels did and still does, or work as basic and predictable of a formula as Michaels does. Not to mention most of Bret's matches still hold up today and Michaels haven't aged well at all, IMO. Bret will always be completely better than Michaels to anyone who understands wrestling.

 

Your just seeing HBK more now than you did Bret before tho. Shawn works the standard RAW formula to a tee, sure. But so does everyone. In money matches on PPV, HBK has just as much variety as he ever did, far more than Austin and Flair did.

[J.T. 0]

It's not about having the most moves... it's about knowing when to use them.

 

Steve Austin at is peak didn't need to use most of his moveset, because it didn't fit his gimmick.

 

Michaels is unbearably bad these days, but he's been wrestling through injuries, and hasn't really had any great opponents this year.

 

Thats all well and good, but his charicter isn't to have cookie cutter Main Event matches with everyone. It got so bad you could call moves 5 seconds before it happened becuase you had seen that same match before.

[Bruce Blank 0]

Oh lord - I'll be back in 800 posts where neither side has managed to convince the other side of a damn thing, this is almost more fanatical than a Christian/Muslim dispute

[Scroby 0]

"HBK... used the same 5 or 6 moves THE ENTIRE MATCH."

 

Aside from the near flawless transitions and MONSTER selling, plus sick bumps Michaels took when he was at his peak ('94-'97), let's analyze that:

 

Michaels regularly performed the following maneuevers:

 

Flying Forearm

Kip-Up

Inverted Atomic Drop

Sweet Chin Music (Finisher)

Moonsault

Diving Cross-Body to the Arena Floor

Frankensteiner

Skin the Cat into the ring

Vertical Suplex

Figure-Four Leglock

Jumping Piledriver

Flying Elbowdrop

Baseball Slide Dropkick

Two-Legged Under-Arm Hook from Behind

Top-Rope Flying Axehandle

Leaping Straddle onto Opponent in the Ropes

Standard Piledriver

Shin-Held Backdrop Suplex (Finisher)

 

This one time he even put someone in the Sharpshooter...

 

That's just thinking of one or two matches. So stop with "the same 5-6 moves!" That's ridiculous.

Ok it's a bit creepy that you either A. Know all of this or B. took the time to research what moves he does.

[Big McLargeHuge 0]

Jumping Piledriver

Standard Piledriver

Come on.

 

Two-Legged Under-Arm Hook from Behind

Leaping Straddle onto Opponent in the Ropes

What?

 

And the Kip up is more of a spot than move. Same goes for Skinning the Cat. That's like saying Bret Hart's chest first turnbuckle bump is apart of his move set.

[MillenniumMan831 0]

Thanks for posting these.

[Dobbs 3K 0]

He also did the Razor's Edge a couple time... sheesh.

[J.T. 0]

Well, the "Skinning the cat" can lead into his headscissors over the top. He does that enough for it be mentioned.

 

And I do consider the Bret chest bump a move. He does enough and is the best at it. Give him some cred.

[Jericho2000Mark 0]

"HBK... used the same 5 or 6 moves THE ENTIRE MATCH."

 

Aside from the near flawless transitions and MONSTER selling, plus sick bumps Michaels took when he was at his peak ('94-'97), let's analyze that:

 

Michaels regularly performed the following maneuevers:

 

Flying Forearm

Kip-Up

Inverted Atomic Drop

Sweet Chin Music (Finisher)

Moonsault

Diving Cross-Body to the Arena Floor

Frankensteiner

Skin the Cat into the ring

Vertical Suplex

Figure-Four Leglock

Jumping Piledriver

Flying Elbowdrop

Baseball Slide Dropkick

Two-Legged Under-Arm Hook from Behind

Top-Rope Flying Axehandle

Leaping Straddle onto Opponent in the Ropes

Standard Piledriver

Shin-Held Backdrop Suplex (Finisher)

 

This one time he even put someone in the Sharpshooter...

 

That's just thinking of one or two matches. So stop with "the same 5-6 moves!" That's ridiculous.

 

Ric Flair, on the other hand, sometimes would wrestle the same exact match every single week on Nitro and not even get to 5 or 6. I can provide details of 9-10 weeks in a row AT LEAST where each match was "Cower, chop, big backdrop, face no-sells the chops, Flair gets an elbow in, up top, slammed off the top, finish." But to claim Michaels, who BUMPED LIKE A MADMAN for Razor, Sid, Diesel, Bret, Owen, Austin, Vader, Bulldog, Mankind, Taker, HELL EVERYONE on a weekly basis went out there and did a routine "5 moves, finish" for a match is lunacy.

 

Completely agreed about Flair, he is easily the most overrated wrestler in history, he was more routine than Hogan and all his "great" matches were identical, save for the street fight with Funk, but dude...the kip up? Skinning the cat? The sharpshooter he used that one time... Are you serious?!! Yeah, Michaels bumped like a madman, and also oversold everything in a ridiculous and cartoonish way, only to completely ignore it at the end by kipping up, ruining any psychology the match had.

 

Bret, Owen, Vader, Mankind, heck even Taker, weren't nearly as routine or predictable as Michaels.

[cabbageboy 0]

The problem with Vader is that his peak wasn't all that long (1992-95) in the US.

 

Anyway, I don't really get the constant Bret/Shawn arguments since they really weren't the same type of worker. Bret was more of the technician who worked various body parts to set up his finisher, with few major chances taken or huge spots (unless a match called for it). Shawn was more of a quick wrestler who sold a lot, took all sorts of assbeatings, then made the comeback. When a heel he'd do this act and do something sneaky to gain an advantage....when a face he'd make the face comeback out of it.

 

I've never heard anyone mention this about HBK, but to me several of the high flying type moves he does don't look good. His Frankensteiner looks mediocre to me, as does any attempt at an enziguiri (sp?). One glaring moment when I noticed how awkward HBK is was during the Mind Games match with Mankind, it was the spot where he went for a goofy looking Van Daminator style move on Mankind. I recall thinking how stupid this looked in comparison to the typical Van Daminator.

 

Truth be told, I still think Michaels' peak years as a worker were when he was with Jannetty in the Rockers. Hell, come to think of it from what I saw on Bret's DVD his peak years may well have been in Calgary working in front of 200 people.

[Special K 0]

It's all so subjective, really. Flair became more and more routine, but c'mon, look at his age and opponents. I've never thought that people 'spoil their legacy.' In sports or music or whatnot just because they try to hold on too long.

 

HBK has had some bad matches, but he's also getting up there. He's still capable of great ones. WM19 v Jericho was just incredible live.

I did hate the ol' kip-up out of nowhere spot. And I really hated most of the HHH feud.

And he should have kept the teardrop suplex. (in addition to the Superkick, of course) That move was the SHIT.

 

Bret Hart's probably my favorite out of these three, but that's most likely because it's been years since I've seen his matches, and I don't remember his stinkers.

 

I don't undestand the whole fuss about the 5 moves of doom either. IIRC they were:

 

Bulldog

Backbreaker

2nd rope elbow

Russian Leg Sweep

Sharpshooter

 

All well-executed, and he used them at the end of the match. He's mix them up with other moves as well.

[HollywoodSpikeJenkins 0]

Claudio Castagnoli was fired due to visa issues. He was in the States on a tourist visa rather than a working visa. WWE signed him before checking this out. The blame for that has gone on Mike Bucci (Simon Dean). When Laurinitis found out he cancelled the contract as it would cost several thousand dollars to sort out a working visa and he didn't feel Castagnoli was worth the extra investment. Having said that, ROH booker Gabe Sapolsky who has used Castagnoli for a long period of time says that he has a Green Card so none of that should have been a problem.

 

 

God damn it.

[Promoter 0]

"HBK... used the same 5 or 6 moves THE ENTIRE MATCH."

Ric Flair, on the other hand, sometimes would wrestle the same exact match every single week on Nitro and not even get to 5 or 6. I can provide details of 9-10 weeks in a row AT LEAST where each match was "Cower, chop, big backdrop, face no-sells the chops, Flair gets an elbow in, up top, slammed off the top, finish." But to claim Michaels, who BUMPED LIKE A MADMAN for Razor, Sid, Diesel, Bret, Owen, Austin, Vader, Bulldog, Mankind, Taker, HELL EVERYONE on a weekly basis went out there and did a routine "5 moves, finish" for a match is lunacy.

 

Completely agreed about Flair, he is easily the most overrated wrestler in history, he was more routine than Hogan and all his "great" matches were identical, save for the street fight with Funk,

 

In that UW interview I posted Warrior said Flair was a liar for calling himself the greatest and could work a broomstick because he said he couldn't work with Warrior. Is Warrior deluded or talking truth? In some ways it DOES say something about Flair. Savage, Rude, Perfect, and Dibiase seemed to carry Warrior rather easily(hell Hogan at WM 6 for crying out loud).

[Jericho2000Mark 0]

"HBK... used the same 5 or 6 moves THE ENTIRE MATCH."

Ric Flair, on the other hand, sometimes would wrestle the same exact match every single week on Nitro and not even get to 5 or 6. I can provide details of 9-10 weeks in a row AT LEAST where each match was "Cower, chop, big backdrop, face no-sells the chops, Flair gets an elbow in, up top, slammed off the top, finish." But to claim Michaels, who BUMPED LIKE A MADMAN for Razor, Sid, Diesel, Bret, Owen, Austin, Vader, Bulldog, Mankind, Taker, HELL EVERYONE on a weekly basis went out there and did a routine "5 moves, finish" for a match is lunacy.

 

Completely agreed about Flair, he is easily the most overrated wrestler in history, he was more routine than Hogan and all his "great" matches were identical, save for the street fight with Funk,

 

In that UW interview I posted Warrior said Flair was a liar for calling himself the greatest and could work a broomstick because he said he couldn't work with Warrior. Is Warrior deluded or talking truth? In some ways it DOES say something about Flair. Savage, Rude, Perfect, and Dibiase seemed to carry Warrior rather easily(hell Hogan at WM 6 for crying out loud).

 

Flair dragged Ricky Steamboat to some pretty boring matches, one of which was apparently "the greatest match of the 20th century"... Meltzer and 99.999% of smarks really need to get off Flair's cock.

[Special K 0]

Those matches were fucking great, and you gave to be crazy to think not. I don't think they're the greatest at all: Hokuto / Kandori will probably my second favourite, (and objective fave) and Owen Bret WMX will probably always be my favorite match.

 

But calling the Flair/Steamboat boring is just silly. Falir Funk is phenomenal too, and very intense. What do you actually LIKE Jericho2000?

 

I neglected one thing, is that the whole thing about working a good match with a stiff . I don't know how I feel about this.

Michaels surely bumped like the living hell, and absolutely destroyed his body vs stiffs. (Taker at that time was NOT a stiff, that guy is maybe one of the most prominent athletic big man ever) But, I really like the Hart/Diesel match which is basically dominant face vs tricky face.

Hart is just masterful in that match. and such a great finish. (I hated it the first time. Diesel 4ever!^%*!)

[JHawk 0]

Jumping Piledriver

Standard Piledriver

Come on.

 

Two-Legged Under-Arm Hook from Behind

Leaping Straddle onto Opponent in the Ropes

What?

 

And the Kip up is more of a spot than move. Same goes for Skinning the Cat. That's like saying Bret Hart's chest first turnbuckle bump is apart of his move set.

ARM-bar.

 

arm-BAR.

 

He forgot those two.

[King Cucaracha 0]

Yeah, Michaels bumped like a madman, and also oversold everything in a ridiculous and cartoonish way, only to completely ignore it at the end by kipping up, ruining any psychology the match had.

 

Maybe if he did it in Japan, it'd be fine and people would come up with five paragraph explanations as to why kipping-up and no-selling something makes perfect sense.

 

I'm not trying to knock Puro here. I don't have a big problem with the Japanese no-sell spot (apart from it being used so much that it's lost a lot of it's meaning), the nip-up, the Hulk Up, the Canadian Destroyer, any of those type of things. Psychology is great and all, but surely at the end of the day it's about getting a reaction from the audience, which Shawn does.

 

But can someone explain why Michaels' kip-up in mid match should be treated any differently to getting immediately up after a usually match ending headdrop, sometimes on more than one occasion? Anyone?

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

Psychology is great and all, but surely at the end of the day it's about getting a reaction from the audience.

 

It's not just about getting a reaction. A lot of things can get a reaction, but that doesn't mean they should be done or that they make sense.

 

But can someone explain why Michaels' kip-up in mid match should be treated any differently to getting immediately up after a usually match ending headdrop, sometimes on more than one occasion? Anyone?

 

The major problem I have with Shawn's no-selling kip-up's, beside rendering useless all the work done in the match up to that point, is that it didn't look credible for someone who was 6ft and, maybe, 210lbs, to be casually shrugging off offense that he just spent twenty minutes selling like crazy. With Hogan, at least in his prime, he looked like a physically imposing guy who, at 6ft4 and 300lbs, looks credible in rising up from the ashes of a major beating and kicking some ass. Something he also did was continue to sell the beating he'd just been taking, even while he was making his comeback, and usually after the match where he'd act like he was just in a war. Shawn would just stop selling completely and be bouncing around the ring like nothing had happened. For someone of Shawn's size to go from selling a beating like crazy to flying and flopping around like he was perfectly fine made no sense and looked silly. If you want to see someone of Shawn's size sell his ass off for twenty minutes but make a comeback that looks credible and believable, watch Ricky Morton in his heyday. That guy could sell his ass off, usually better than Shawn, but when he made his comeback he didn’t do it such a way that made no sense for someone of his size and stature.

[J.T. 0]

Psychology is great and all, but surely at the end of the day it's about getting a reaction from the audience.

 

It's not just about getting a reaction. A lot of things can get a reaction, but that doesn't mean they should be done or that they make sense.

 

But can someone explain why Michaels' kip-up in mid match should be treated any differently to getting immediately up after a usually match ending headdrop, sometimes on more than one occasion? Anyone?

 

The major problem I have with Shawn's no-selling kip-up's, beside rendering useless all the work done in the match up to that point, is that it didn't look credible for someone who was 6ft and, maybe, 210lbs, to be casually shrugging off offense that he just spent twenty minutes selling like crazy. With Hogan, at least in his prime, he looked like a physically imposing guy who, at 6ft4 and 300lbs, looks credible in rising up from the ashes of a major beating and kicking some ass. Something he also did was continue to sell the beating he'd just been taking, even while he was making his comeback, and usually after the match where he'd act like he was just in a war. Shawn would just stop selling completely and be bouncing around the ring like nothing had happened. For someone of Shawn's size to go from selling a beating like crazy to flying and flopping around like he was perfectly fine made no sense and looked silly. If you want to see someone of Shawn's size sell his ass off for twenty minutes but make a comeback that looks credible and believable, watch Ricky Morton in his heyday. That guy could sell his ass off, usually better than Shawn, but when he made his comeback he didn’t do it such a way that made no sense for someone of his size and stature.

 

No Main Event Babyface sells during their comeback in the WWE. However, Hogan is the only one would would no-sell actual moves. I dont care of Hogans is 8 feet tall, his is far worse.