Let's talk about John Cena.

[Maztinho 0]

I mean arnt you tired of the "comeback kid" thing OVER AND OVER??

 

The Rocky Movies say hello.

 

The superman thing is stupid, but again, that's NOT CENA'S FAULT. Cena is told, go out, get beat down, come back and win.

 

This is booking. And Cena does well with what he's given, and manages to be a solid wrestler. Also there is a context of "wrestler" that needs to be defined. Is "wrestler" Dean Malenko's Man with 1000 holds or a guy who can work a crowd with a limited moveset ala Hogan? Both are wrestlers, just different styles. I see a good wrestler as someone who can make use of his tools to the best of his ability (for the most part, not every match is going to be stellar), and Cena does that.

[edgehead69 0]

I think the Cena hate has reached ridiculous levels. It gets to the point where people micro-analyze everything to find faults with his work. Are Cena's matches repetitive? I don't know, but except for a situation like HHH/Steiner where a guy goes back to the same move over and over, most fans don't care. Your casual fan knows wrestling is fixed but doesn't know the hows. Cena doing the same things every match, or making the superhuman comeback too much, most fans don't give a damn about it.

 

Casual Fans are attractive to the simplicity of Cena... I mean if he had an arsenal of an Angle, or Benoit then it wouldnt have the same effect. He is simple with his little moves and the same ol routine and that is why kids love him. But I really see nothing that would make me buy all of hs Merch....

 

I've been a fan of wrestling since 1990. I've seen a 9 month Ultimate Warrior title reign. Nine months of Yokozuna. A YEAR of Kevin Nash. Six months of Justin Credible. 15 months of Hulk Hogan (WCW). If Cena is average, he is hardly the worst wrestler to hold a championship for an extended period of time. Back in the Attitude era, you'd have Austin drop the belt, Rock pick it up two months later, four changes between him and Foley, Austin getting the big win at Wrestlemania only to lose the belt two months later, regain it in another two months and drop it again next month. That SUCKED, and ultimately served to devalue the championship. I'd rather see guys keep the title too long, because it means more when they finally lose it. If Cena lost and regained the title three times, no one would care when he did it.

 

If you don't like how WWE keeps Cena on top, find something else to watch. Seriously. I get the perception that most people hate Cena because it's oh-so-cool to do it, in spite of the fact that most of WWE's fanbase loves Cena, including the big merchandise buyers. If that doesn't suit you, quit watching WWE and support some local promotion instead. Because why should WWE cater to you?

 

All this has led me to one key realization about the business as a whole. Wrestling needs not fear the loss of kayfabe. It doesn't matter if fans know it is fixed or not. Fans still CARE about who wins and loses, and that is the most important factor in selling a wrestling card.

 

Casual Fans are attractive to the simplicity of Cena... I mean if he had an arsenal of an Angle, or Benoit then it wouldnt have the same effect. He is simple with his little moves and the same ol routine and that is why kids love him. But I really see nothing that would make me buy all of hs Merch....

 

 

I agree keeping the title for a long time is good BUT.... Some are exceptions... HHH (2nd reign as WHC and Cena) I do enjoy the title swapping hands often but I love Heels dominating for over half a year (JBL anyone) what wwe needs is a dominant heel that people want him to lose the title and that will mean more when he loses. We really shouldnt hate cena ya know... he is a face but his lack of talent and his repetitiveness is really aggravating to sit through.... If he was heel i dont think alot of us would complain about Cena. WWE has to also stop feeding cena the bottom of the list boys...

 

Agree that if you dont like Cena you should watch TNA or somethin... or watch WWE for the future stars in Nitro, Punk, Burke, MVP, Etc. It isnt painful to watch really... its just when i feel someone will finally beat him and he loses to Cena... Man thats a Heartbreaker...

 

 

[Corey_Lazarus 0]

Your typing style is sporadic and jumbled, like the words of somebody on too many amphetamines.

 

While I agree that a lot of the Cena hate is just a trend, much like the bulk of the HHHate a few years ago, or the FJJ trend for TNA folder, don't forget that there are those that genuinely are not entertained by him in the least. The one match of his I could watch fully was vs. 'Taker at Vengeance '03. But he does sell merch (which, really, why the fuck should we care if he sells merch when we care about the quality of the product itself), he is over with a large portion of the fanbase, and he does seem to lack an attitude backstage.

 

As an aside, was Credible's reign as ECW champ in 2000 really THAT bad? He had solid matches against Dreamer, Storm, Corino, and Lynn. It was certainly much better, match-wise, than Douglas' last run with the belt since Credible actually worked through it instead of sitting on the sidelines injured, and had more decent matches during it than the reigns of Lynn or Corino (though that's due to time constraints). It was the worst of the more-than-a-week runs during the TNN era (Taz, Awesome, Tanaka, Credible, thus discounting Dreamer), but it wasn't the worst ever.

[Jingus 0]

there are those that genuinely are not entertained by him in the least.

::raises hand::

 

As an aside, was Credible's reign as ECW champ in 2000 really THAT bad? He had solid matches against Dreamer, Storm, Corino, and Lynn. It was certainly much better, match-wise, than Douglas' last run with the belt since Credible actually worked through it instead of sitting on the sidelines injured, and had more decent matches during it than the reigns of Lynn or Corino (though that's due to time constraints). It was the worst of the more-than-a-week runs during the TNN era (Taz, Awesome, Tanaka, Credible, thus discounting Dreamer), but it wasn't the worst ever.

Part of it has to do with the "street cred" aspect that was important in ECW. Credible had NONE. He was a barely average wrestler who'd never done anything memorable before ECW other than wear a yellow jockstrap over his head. Then he was booked in a HHHesque fashion where he beat everyone for almost two fuckin' years. And it doesn't help his case that he was actually really good at being a heel, something the markier fans completely fell for.

 

 

 

In fact... did Cena steal Credible's old ring gear, or what? Jean shorts and nothin' else... creepy...

[cabbageboy 0]

The absolute main problem with Justin's title run in ECW is that nobody gave a shit or wanted him with the belt. Van Dam was far and away the obvious guy ECW should have had as champion, but Heyman kept waiting for some perfect storm scenario that would allow him to put the belt on RVD and capitalize with huge money. He was waiting for ECW to get off TNN and onto a better network, but the thing is what network would want a promotion with Justin Credible as world champion? If anything having the belt on RVD would have at least been the most alluring prospect for a network to pick up ECW.

[USC Wuz Robbed! 0]

One thing I should point out, since people seem to be using their own personal feelings to generalize the entire fanbase, there's always been a percentage of fans who hate the face champion, no matter who it is. Whether it's a Bret Hart, a Hulk Hogan, a Shawn Michaels, and so on. Cena is no different. What he brings to the table that some others didn't before him, is the ability to draw. Just because a select few people here hate Cena, doesn't mean that the WWE should just throw him out the window and start pushing CM Punk or Ken Kennedy. Once CM Punk or Ken Kennedy or any other "favorite" show the ability to draw as well as Cena (and yes, there are ways to find that out right now, even with Cena as champion, perhaps by rating trends or other factors), then you can gripe. Until then, WWE knows what they are doing on this particular matter, and no complaining by a % of the fanbase is going to change that.

[Jingus 0]

Yes, Cena is different. Who among those other guys you named REGULARLY got booed out of the building? Not like every once in a while like even Hulk got, but in half the fucking towns the visit, like Cena does? I'd say a lot bigger percentage of the fanbase hates him than hated those other guys.

[USC Wuz Robbed! 0]

Yes, Cena is different. Who among those other guys you named REGULARLY got booed out of the building? Not like every once in a while like even Hulk got, but in half the fucking towns the visit, like Cena does? I'd say a lot bigger percentage of the fanbase hates him than hated those other guys.

 

You're right. Cena is the one of the very few guys that people actually pay money to go boo at.

[Jingus 0]

Who says they're paying to see him at all? Maybe they're like me, they're just paying to see wrestling, and they hate that this one guy who sucks at it is presented as supposedly being the best. I doubt that anyone (besides a few old diehard ECW fans) would intentionally pay to watch something that they dislike.

[USC Wuz Robbed! 0]

Ok how about the rating trends? Cena gains a lot of viewers for his segments. They're watching for wrestling then?

[Spaceman Spiff 0]

Raw house show attendance went up after Cena was moved to Raw & subsequently became champ. Check out any number of house show reports, and Cena invariably is listed as the most over face for the show.

[Jingus 0]

Ok how about the rating trends? Cena gains a lot of viewers for his segments. They're watching for wrestling then?

1. Got any numbers or sources on that?

 

2. If you do, I'll explain in detail why they could be misleading.

 

 

Raw house show attendance went up after Cena was moved to Raw & subsequently became champ. Check out any number of house show reports, and Cena invariably is listed as the most over face for the show.

Which leads me to wonder why different types of people seem to show up for the TV tapings than for the house shows. (And don't say "it's to have a chance to get shown on tv", even the dumbest mark knows that if you're anywhere past the second row the cameras don't catch you.)

[USC Wuz Robbed! 0]

Look back in older threads, the numbers are in there. I'm not going to bother dredging them up so you can try to skewer them. But they exist.

[Spaceman Spiff 0]

n/m

[bob_barron 0]

Why do you think the numbers are misleading Jingus- b/c he's always in the main event.

 

But Cena makes a lot of money for the company, seems to be a good character guy and I enjoy his work in the ring- I'm a big fan of the guy and I have no problem with his continued title run

[Chalmation 0]

WWE comes to some places infrequently enough that people go no matter who's on top

 

it's entirely possible that folks who happen to boo john cena go to see someone else on the card. WWE has dealt with that by burying every other potential main event face (Jeff Hardy doesn't count) on RAW that even gets a hint of reaction and doesn't get injured.

 

there are so many different acts though that you're pretty much guaranteed to find someone you like.

 

in a perfect world, the smackdown/ecw shows would still have RVD, Kendrick and London, Kennedy, Sabu, and yes, even Benoit

 

but WWE hasn't been in new orleans in four years, so I can't really afford to be picky.

 

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

Who says they're paying to see him at all? Maybe they're like me, they're just paying to see wrestling, and they hate that this one guy who sucks at it is presented as supposedly being the best. I doubt that anyone (besides a few old diehard ECW fans) would intentionally pay to watch something that they dislike.

This is something I've never quite understood. When has the champion EVER been about who the best pure wrestler is?

 

I think a lot of fans hate Cena but are overall entertained by the product. That's fine. If Cena is a heel to them, well the heel can withstand a long run as champion. To the eyes of the casual fan without a discerning taste for workrate, is it much different than say Ric Flair's heel run in 1988? Promoters have been able to sell a product with a disliked champion on top for years, and never had a problem.

[edgehead69 0]

Ok how about the rating trends? Cena gains a lot of viewers for his segments. They're watching for wrestling then?

 

Yeah They are watching it... Most Cena fans are the little kids that buy the merchendise...

Now If Cena lost the title... WWE may be afraid that they will lose viewers that will watch RAW once again when they hear that Cena won the belt again

Im just speculating but that could be the unfortunate case....

 

BUT... WWE can get more viewers that want to see Cena chase for the title... who knows how this will turn out once Cena drops the title to whoever it is....

[mfn 0]

I just wish that Cena would get a revamp in his character. I don't mind him in the ring, but I cannot stand him when he is on the mic. He annoys the shit out of me.

[Jingus 0]

Look back in older threads, the numbers are in there. I'm not going to bother dredging them up so you can try to skewer them. But they exist.

You: "God exists."

Me: "Oh yeah? Prove it."

You: "Look back in the Bible, the proof is in there. I'm not going to bother dredging it up you you can try to skewer it. But it exists."

 

Dude, you're the one arguing that Cena pops the ratings. If you want your argument to be taken seriously, present sources for your facts. Just saying "look in the older threads" doesn't help when there are almost twenty thousand older threads in this folder.

 

 

This is something I've never quite understood. When has the champion EVER been about who the best pure wrestler is?

Not very often, granted. Only occasionally with guys like Kurt Painpill, Eddy Cardio, and Fucking Murderer.

 

But what I'm trying to get at is, most champions should have a reason why they're champion. Tell me a story in that ring. Tell me why Cena wins all his matches. They don't do that now, for the most part. Far as I can tell, Cena just has a Hogan-like ability to switch off all the pain receptors in his body, and every other wrestler in the company has a hypnotic compulsion to quickly tap out to a glorified rear chinlock. I mean, seriously, every successful champion has a reason and a motivation in their ring psychology as to how and why they win. With Austin, it was that he could just the toughest SOB walking the earth, plus the best finisher ever. With the unfortunate guys I named above, it was that they could just plain out-wrestle you. With Big Show, it was that he was freakin' huge. With Undertaker, it was that he was freakin' huge and freakin' dead. With Rock... uh... okay, here the analogy breaks down a little, but Rock was portrayed as some kind of Hollywood god long before he ever made a movie, like he was above all the rest of us mere mortals. But Cena? Um... he DEFIES THE ODDS~! and apparently getting sloppily dropped from a fireman's carry is enough to pin anyone in the world.

[Guest shoryuken007]

Wrestling fans are often children. Children buy merchandise. John Cena appeals to children. Now, I don't have the numbers in front of me, so you may want to put a call in to the American Bar Association and suspend my license, BUT, I'd argue that looking at any WWE crowd is enough. Plenty of kids wearing Cena shirts, camo hats, carrying spinner belts. That's your reason.

[King Cucaracha 0]

But what I'm trying to get at is, most champions should have a reason why they're champion. Tell me a story in that ring. Tell me why Cena wins all his matches. They don't do that now, for the most part. Far as I can tell, Cena just has a Hogan-like ability to switch off all the pain receptors in his body, and every other wrestler in the company has a hypnotic compulsion to quickly tap out to a glorified rear chinlock. I mean, seriously, every successful champion has a reason and a motivation in their ring psychology as to how and why they win. With Austin, it was that he could just the toughest SOB walking the earth, plus the best finisher ever. With the unfortunate guys I named above, it was that they could just plain out-wrestle you. With Big Show, it was that he was freakin' huge. With Undertaker, it was that he was freakin' huge and freakin' dead. With Rock... uh... okay, here the analogy breaks down a little, but Rock was portrayed as some kind of Hollywood god long before he ever made a movie, like he was above all the rest of us mere mortals. But Cena? Um... he DEFIES THE ODDS~! and apparently getting sloppily dropped from a fireman's carry is enough to pin anyone in the world.

 

There's my problem.

 

Even JR seems to struggle to find reasons to explain Cena's amazing winning percentage. When the best adjectives he can come up with are "unorthodox" and "controversial", you know that something ain't right.

 

It's obvious Cena isn't the best pure wrestler and they've brought that up on commentary before. That's not a problem, provided there is something they can put him over for. Angle was "an olympic gold medalist". HHH was the "Cerebral Assassin". Bret, "Excellence Of Execution". You go down the line, Savage, Shawn, Diesel, Yokozuna. What explanation have they actually offered up to people for WHY Cena is able to pull out the victory over and over and over again? They can't use the support of the crowd all the time. They can't put it down to just 'heart and determination', that's so hackneyed it's untrue. Why should anyone buy Cena, either in kayfabe or out of it, as the WWE Champion? Without the explanation, the natural conclusion is that he's just plain lucky, which worked for Honky Tonk Man but as a heel and with the secondary belt.

 

 

I don't have a problem with John Cena the person. He obviously cares about the business and seems like a genuinely nice guy. But John Cena the character/wrestler is, no matter how much merchandise he sells, flawed. That's not neccessarily all Cena's fault. But it's what I as a viewer see.

[USC Wuz Robbed! 0]

Jingus, I've not been taking your arguments seriously either, so it evens out. For someone who is supposedly part of the business, it's easy to see why you're no longer part of it, if you really ever were. You're right that there are 20,000 old threads, that's why I'm not going to dig through them all just for an internet argument. If you want to put your hands to your ears and a thumb up your ass, that's your right, but don't for a minute try to claim Cena doesn't draw fans in.

[Jingus 0]

For someone who is supposedly part of the business, it's easy to see why you're no longer part of it, if you really ever were.

Go fuck yourself, asshole, there's no reason to bring up stupid personal insults (and WRONG ones at that) in a debate over goddamned rassling.

[edgehead69 0]

For someone who is supposedly part of the business, it's easy to see why you're no longer part of it, if you really ever were.

Go fuck yourself, asshole, there's no reason to bring up stupid personal insults (and WRONG ones at that) in a debate over goddamned rassling.

 

Woah Woah easy you two... Everyone is entitled to their own freakin opinion just make amends and thats it...

[The Amazing Rando 0]

Whoops, wrong thread.

[edgehead69 0]

Yeah Me too...

[Jingus 0]

For someone who is supposedly part of the business, it's easy to see why you're no longer part of it, if you really ever were.

Go fuck yourself, asshole, there's no reason to bring up stupid personal insults (and WRONG ones at that) in a debate over goddamned rassling.

Woah Woah easy you two... Everyone is entitled to their own freakin opinion just make amends and thats it...

Edgehead, you're new, trust me when I say this kind of shit happens here all the damn time.

[edgehead69 0]

I guess... but i still stand by everyone is entitled to their own opinion and people have no right to get made over anothers opinion...

[Jingus 0]

You're absolutely right. Nobody should get mad about someone else's opinion about something as goofy as wrestling. Sadly, people tend to get mad here all the time. ""You don't like Shelton Benjamin? Then you're a fucking racist! Go march in the parade, KKKomrade!" It's kinda par for the course around here.