What If...?

[Guest Smues]

Well yeah hindsight and all that, but isn't that the point of this thread?

 

To the Braves drafting Van Poppel idea, fuck that would have sucked. Yeah there's a chance he actually has a career, but there's no way he has the career Chipper has. And the Braves certainly didn't lack pitching in the 90's.

 

As for my what if, how about the obvious one: Jordan doesn't retire the first time. Do the Bulls eight peat? Do they even 4 peat? I've seen lots of debate on this in another thread. Really, I don't think they do, but if anyone was gonna do it it was Jordan, and I wish he hadn't retired just so we could have seen what happened.

 

Also, the refs ignore the bullshit tuck rule and the Raiders beat the Patriots.

 

A. Do the Raiders beat the Steelers, and does the winner of that game beat the Rams?

 

B. Do the Patriots still become the dominant force they became?

 

My guess to A is yes and probably not, and B is still yes. Fucking Patriots.

[vivalaultra 0]

What if Ted Williams had not lost years of play to the military?

 

By that same token...

 

What if Shoeless Joe hadn't been kicked out of baseball?

 

What if Roberto Clemente hadn't died New Year's Eve 1972?

 

What if J.R. Richard didn't have a stroke in 1980 that cut his HOF career short?

 

What if Dizzy Dean didn't get hit by Earl Averill's line drive, breaking his foot and causing him to lose his fastball?

 

What if Lou Gehrig didn't get sick in 1938?

 

What if Satchel Paige (and other Negro Leaguers) were allowed to play in the majors before the tailend of their careers?

 

It's interesting (and a little depressing) to think about things like that; how great those players were and how much greater they could've been if their careers hadn't been cut short for various reasons.

[Dandy 0]

Add Tony Conigliaro to that list.

[Guest Vitamin X]

Couple of fairly recent NFL scenarios...

 

What if Trent Green had not gotten hurt in '99?

 

What if Bledsoe hadn't gotten hurt in '01 or the Pats had lost the tuck rule game?

 

Certainly had those situations been different, the careers of several high-profile players would've been altered (in addition to the obvious ones: Warner, Brady etc...)

 

If Trent Green doesn't get hurt, the Rams would've been an even better team than they were with Warner. if Bledsoe doesn't get hurt, the pats still make the playoffs, probably overcome the tuck rule game (the raiders had squandered tons of opportunities before to win the game, they deserved to lose) and the pats probably make the super bowl, and lose to Trent Green's Rams, with Bledsoe choking in the big game, and getting traded away a couple years later. Brady never gets much of a chance until management sees he has potential in training camp, so he has a flashy start here and there but is never given a real opportunity. The Pats do considerably worse than their 8-8 mark in 2002 also, which might've led to Belichick being fired again and an upheaval of the franchise.

 

How about if the Falcons hold on to Brett Favre and actually give him a starting job? would the Falcons be any good? Reggie White certainly wouldn't have come to Green Bay, and the Packers would've just continued right on sucking through the 90's. I say if Favre developed under Reeves instead of glanville (who held him down a lot due to personal differences) the Falcons would've been a contender, especially when they had their surge in the late 90's, and through the Jim Mora Jr. years.

 

What if Green Bay doesn't give up that Terrell Davis touchdown in SB XXXII and holds on somehow to pull it off, continuing the NFC's winning streak of 14 seasons? Elway would've given up for sure, and the following year would've belonged to the Vikings. Better yet, what if they didn't choke? I think they would've beat the Broncos, even if the Falcons were a shittier version of them previously, and they would've been on natural grass too.

 

Already kind of answered earlier, but:

Also, the refs ignore the bullshit tuck rule and the Raiders beat the Patriots.

 

A. Do the Raiders beat the Steelers, and does the winner of that game beat the Rams?

 

B. Do the Patriots still become the dominant force they became?

 

My guess to A is yes and probably not, and B is still yes. Fucking Patriots.

A is a big maybe- the Steelers were a tough, tough team to beat that year and the following year's version of the Raiders proved that they were not as good as they were all hyped up to be. If the Raiders somehow beat the Steelers there, they lose to the Rams- they would've gotten in an offensive shootout, and the Rams would've ripped em a new one there. If the Steelers win, they probably beat the Rams- they had a much better defense. The Patriots won those two games on the virtue of their defense and special teams- two things the Raiders didn't have much of, and the Steelers lacked sorely in special teams, but so did the Rams. It would still have been a pretty exciting game.

 

Oh, and B depends on how well they played the following season. If they come back stronger the following year and win, then yes the Patriots might even threepeat (2002-2004). If they stink, Belichick might get fired and the franchise never gets going strong again for a while.

 

Relating to that season, what if Tony Dungy beats the Rams in 99, and nets the Bucs a Super Bowl win? Gruden stays with the Raiders, Dungy never goes to the Colts.

[World's Worst Man 0]

What if Barry Bonds doesn't "mysteriously" gain 50 pounds, and 3 inches to the circumference of his head in the late 90's? There's the issue of his numbers, but I'm also wondering whether the steroids in baseball story would have gotten as big as it has.

[tominator89 0]

What if Josh Gibson was allowed to play in the majors?

[USC Wuz Robbed! 0]

What if Josh Gibson was allowed to play in the majors?

 

I always wondered that too. As good as Jackie Robinson was, I think Josh Gibson would have made a bigger splash in the majors.

[Guest Tzar Lysergic]

...Muhammad Ali never had to endure the consequences of the draft fiasco.

[CanadianChris 0]

...Muhammad Ali never had to endure the consequences of the draft fiasco.

He'd go down as the greatest boxer of all time. But I don't think he'd become quite the iconic figure that he did.

[Your Paragon of Virtue 0]

He's known as the greatest HW Boxer.

 

VX how the hell do you think the Rams would have been better without Warner? And how the hell do you think the Pats make the playoffs, let alone the Super Bowl? Warner had an MVP year, was unbelievably accurate (especially with the long ball) at that time, and before injuries did him in was an unbelievable player to watch. The Pats were under .500 for Christ' sake, how would they be better with Bledsoe than Brady, who has proven to be a much better player than Bledsoe ever was? That whole scenario is so asinine I'm beginning to think if you've let your creative side run away with the details.

[CanadianChris 0]

He's known as the greatest HW Boxer.

That's not what I said.

[Prophet of Mike Zagurski 0]

What if Steve Bartman had not bought those scalped tickets and stayed home and watched the game?

[treble 0]

Then some other idiot would have gotten in the way. He wasn't the only person there reaching for the ball.

[the max 0]

What if Steve Bartman had not bought those scalped tickets and stayed home and watched the game?

 

What if Dusty knew how to use a bullpen?

[KingPK 0]

What if Bledsoe hadn't gotten hurt in '01 or the Pats had lost the tuck rule game?

 

I still think Brady would have been the starter by the end of the '01 season even if Bledsoe was there and healthy. Belichick and the staff were *very* high on Brady when they drafted him while they thought Bledsoe wasn't the fit for their system. If the team scuffled along with Bledsoe at the helm, I wouldn't have put it past Bill to name Brady the starter by Week 10 or so and then find a way to trade Drew in the offseason.

 

If they lost to the Raiders, I don't think history would have changed much for the Patriots. If you remember, their '02 season was pretty "eh" (9-7, lost the division due to tiebreakers). It was what happened in the '02 offseason (signing Harrison, dumping Malloy, getting Daniel Graham and Branch in the draft, etc) that set the stage for the next three years.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

In reference to Satchel Paige, Josh Gibson, etc., nothing really changes. It's not a matter of what if. They WERE great players. They just happened to play outside of Major League Baseball.

 

His stats weren't THAT impressive. His OBP was below where it should have been, he struck out a lot, and could have walked more. His 40-50 steals look impressive now because steals are rarer these days, but he should have stolen more bases. Had he been on base more, his steals and runs would have been better and then I would agree with you.

 

Umm, what? Deshields' career OBP at the time of the trade was .373.

[cabbageboy 0]

I'll throw in a bit of college hoops "What If" scenarios from the Pitino Era at Kentucky:

 

--What is someone guards the Grant Hill inbounds pass vs. Duke in 1992? Would UK go on to win the national title or lose to either IU or the Fab 5? I personally think that the UK/Duke winner was going to win it all, but who knows.

 

--What if Pitino starts Derek Anderson vs. Arizona in the 1997 title game? I think this one is pretty obvious though.

 

And here's one for my guys U of L:

 

--What if the 1983 Final Four was held somewhere besides the high altitude of Albuquerque? The intense, up and down level of play left U of L sucking wind against Phi Slamma Jamma, but at sea level it may well have been a different story. And would U of L have choked against NC State the way Houston did?

[Maztinho 0]

And here's one for my guys U of L:

 

--What if the 1983 Final Four was held somewhere besides the high altitude of Albuquerque? The intense, up and down level of play left U of L sucking wind against Phi Slamma Jamma, but at sea level it may well have been a different story. And would U of L have choked against NC State the way Houston did?

 

Albuquerque.... high altitude? Meh. Denver or SLC you might have an argument, but Albuquerque?

[MarvinisaLunatic 0]

1996 ALCS - Jeffrey Meier goes to school instead of skipping..Jeter doesn't hit the HR to tie the game and send it into extra innings, Os win 4-3. I think the Os would have won the series and gone on to the World Series. They won game 2 and would have left NY up 2-0 instead of 1-1.

 

But anyway.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Your Paragon of Virtue 0]

He's known as the greatest HW Boxer.

That's not what I said.

 

A lot of people view him as the greatest boxer ever. Maybe not people in the know, but the majority of people associate his name with Boxing. I think it would have diminshed his reputation if he hadn't done the time, as someone said due to the fact that he wouldn't have been as controversial a figure.

[MarvinisaLunatic 0]

Hey! If there was no 94 lockout in baseball..Bonds would be past Aaron by now!

 

 

[Vampiro69 0]

What if Thurman Thomas doesn't misplace his helmet before the Redskins-Bills Super Bowl?

[Guest Vitamin X]

VX how the hell do you think the Rams would have been better without Warner? And how the hell do you think the Pats make the playoffs, let alone the Super Bowl? Warner had an MVP year, was unbelievably accurate (especially with the long ball) at that time, and before injuries did him in was an unbelievable player to watch. The Pats were under .500 for Christ' sake, how would they be better with Bledsoe than Brady, who has proven to be a much better player than Bledsoe ever was? That whole scenario is so asinine I'm beginning to think if you've let your creative side run away with the details.

 

I theorize the Rams would have been just as good if not better without Warner because Trent Green proved to be more than capable of holding his own in Kansas City, and more consistently, and without the great weapon that was Marshall Faulk, and that amazing trio of receivers in Holt, Bruce, and Az-Hakim (forget his time as a starting split end in Detroit- he was and still could be great if used in the slot, where his speed causes matchup problems on defense). Furthermore, the Rams had a terrifically easy schedule that year- with all the changes made to that team, playing in a demolished NFC West and a weak conference in general (I remember the 1999 season being called "the changing of the guard", as this was when all the traditional powers seem to have dropped off the radar and given rise to the new great teams of the next decade such as the Colts, Titans, Eagles, etc.). Regardless, Warner benefited from that offense, and the moment pieces of it started falling apart, so did his play. Warner was deadly accurate, no one is going to deny that. But Green had a stronger arm, made better decisions than Warner, and had plenty of years of veteran quarterbacking on his side. Before he signed with the Rams, he was a highly sought after free agent, and even now teams looking for a great, competent QB like the Dolphins sought after his services- can't say so much for Warner.

 

In that same vein, you make the point that history has shown that Bledsoe isn't anywhere near the level of Tom Brady in his play. Saying they were under .500 and implying that their season already was doomed when Bledsoe went down is a bit of a reach- he was only injured in the second game of the season and put up.. okay numbers throughout the season thus far. Brady played the rest of the season, but if you look at his stats, he wasn't exactly setting the world on fire. And consider it was Bledsoe that put the the Patriots in the Super Bowl that year- he took over for Brady in the AFC Championship away against the heavily favored Steelers. My point is, no one on that offense save for maybe Troy Brown and Antoine Smith was doing particularly great- the team offensive stats show that offensively, they didn't finish the top 10 in the league in any passing-related category. Again, it was their defense and their special teams that won them their first championship. Brady was hailed as a hero, and rightfully so, but Bledsoe had been a decent enough quarterback in New England to that point where it's not so far out of reach to believe that he could've also led them to a Super Bowl. Brady was a much bigger factor in the years to come, particularly from 2003 on, and definitely played a part in the team's back to back championships. Of course, without Bledsoe's injury, none of that happens, and I went so far as to say that if the Patriots didn't do much of anything in `01, and flop worse than they did in `02, Belichick is gone and so is the franchise for some time as well.

[TheSSNintendo 0]

1996 ALCS - Jeffrey Meier goes to school instead of skipping..Jeter doesn't hit the HR to tie the game and send it into extra innings, Os win 4-3. I think the Os would have won the series and gone on to the World Series. They won game 2 and would have left NY up 2-0 instead of 1-1.

 

But anyway.

 

I'm in agreement with you there on that one. Kinda makes me wonder what if the ump didn't call strike 3 on Alomar in the '97 ALCS. Would the O's managed to tie the series up?

 

[KingPK 0]

In that same vein, you make the point that history has shown that Bledsoe isn't anywhere near the level of Tom Brady in his play. Saying they were under .500 and implying that their season already was doomed when Bledsoe went down is a bit of a reach- he was only injured in the second game of the season and put up.. okay numbers throughout the season thus far. Brady played the rest of the season, but if you look at his stats, he wasn't exactly setting the world on fire. And consider it was Bledsoe that put the the Patriots in the Super Bowl that year- he took over for Brady in the AFC Championship away against the heavily favored Steelers. My point is, no one on that offense save for maybe Troy Brown and Antoine Smith was doing particularly great- the team offensive stats show that offensively, they didn't finish the top 10 in the league in any passing-related category. Again, it was their defense and their special teams that won them their first championship.

 

You kind of contradict yourself in those two statements. Yes, Bledsoe came in and threw that TD pass late in the first half, but he didn't throw another TD and was typical mediocre Drew (sub 50% passing (like 4-16), 66 passing yards total) in the second half. It was the FG block/TD return and the two or three INTs of Stewart that won the game.

 

If Drew had any future in New England and Brady wasn't perceived as the future of the franchise, Bledsoe would have retaken the starting job when he was eligible to come back in Week 10 or so.

[cabbageboy 0]

Sometimes in the NFL teams catch lightning in a bottle or just luck into a big run. In theory Trent Green might have been as successful in STL as Warner, but sometimes guys have chemistry in ways that others don't. Maybe Green would have led the Rams to the playoffs but maybe team wouldn't have ever had the Super Bowl level chemistry.

 

As far as Bledsoe goes, the Pats were going nowhere fast with him in 2001. I remember how lousy they started out that year and with Bledsoe I'd venture to say that team would have been maybe 6-10 for the season. If Belichick had yanked him anyway it would have likely been similar to the results the Cowboys had this past year, something like 9-7 and a first round loss (this isn't to say the Cowboys win the Super Bowl if Tony Romo starts earlier).

[KingPK 0]

What if the Eli Manning/Philip Rivers trade never happens and both guys remain on their original team? Does LT help Eli develop and the Chargers still become a contender in the AFC while Rivers scuffles in NYC?

[USC Wuz Robbed! 0]

What if the Eli Manning/Philip Rivers trade never happens and both guys remain on their original team? Does LT help Eli develop and the Chargers still become a contender in the AFC while Rivers scuffles in NYC?

 

No because NYG would have gotten Shawne Merriman, Nate Kaeding, and something else. It's not like Eli had a shitty RB to work with.

[Your Paragon of Virtue 0]

Drew Bledsoe's performance in that AFC Championship game is overstated. I think it's just because people like to romanticize the idea of him coming in and saving the day in his last game as a Patriot. That was really all defense and special teams that won it for them.

[Dandy 0]

Perhaps I ask too much out of speedy players like Delino DeShields, but to me a table-setter should be on base at LEAST 40% of the time. A .400 OBP is not out of the question by any means, and I feel that a table-setter should have that as the norm. The reason he did not get to that point is because he struck out way more than he walked.

 

BB SO BA OBP

1990 66 96 .289 .375

1991 95 151 .238 .347

1992 54 108 .292 .359

1993 72 64 .295 .389

 

He did very well in 1993, as he cut his strikeouts down considerably. By that point, however, he had missed quite a few games, had never had an OBP of .400, and had struck out way more than he had walked. To me, you don't give up a promising young pitcher (Pedro and little brother Jesus were both considered to be better than big brother Ramon) for a speedy guy that can't put it all together. If you are hitting close to .300, you should definitely have an OBP over .400.