Lets talk about: ECW on TNN

[Hadley 0]

For a lot of fans, ECWs run on TNN was the first time a lot of casual fans had seen ECW. It was great to see guys i had only read about before, and stuff like rvd/lynn had me hooked. I agree that they should have promoted it better though, since the only ads for the show were shown DURING THE ACTUAL SHOW itself.

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

My cable company didn't have any channels that carried ECW during its heyday. My first extended exposure to the product was the ECW on TNN show. Now, I had seen ECW here and there when I visited my friends with satellite dishes and PWI magazine filled in the rest, but I was salivating at the chance for a good look at the product. This was during the absolute apex of my fandom as well.

 

Unfortunately, I never got into the show at all. A Friday night timeslot when I was in high school? May as well not even existed because the likelihood of me catching the show was 0. From what I remember, I didn't miss much either. ECW was really sort of a shell of its former glory at this point. When I was around I was intrigued by what I saw, but I think it did a poor job of trying to hook new viewers. The product wasn't really special or different anymore compared to Attitude-era WWF.

[Enigma 0]

Taz and The Dudleys leaving to the WWF when the show got started really, really hurt. Raven, The Sandman, and Mikey Whipwreck coming back was a nice bonus, but Taz and The Dudleys were the faces of the promotion for the last two years and all over the Heavyweight Title and Tag Titles, respectively. It was a huge blow.

 

For the record, I do remember seeing one ECW on TNN ad that wasn't on during the show. I saw it during a late-night re-run of South Park on Comedy Central.

 

And does anyone else still have nightmares about Kevin Nash having Monster Truck Madness when ECW on TNN is mentioned?

[AntiLeaf33 0]

They didn't promote ECW, but damn if they didn't promote the shit out of Roller Jam

[Enigma 0]

They didn't promote ECW, but damn if they didn't promote the shit out of Roller Jam

 

Paul Heyman believes that's where a lot of the bitterness for ECW from TNN came from. They spent $3 million promoting Roller Jam and nothing to promote ECW, yet ECW was doing 3x the rating of that show and none of the people who watched ECW wanted to watch Roller Jam. It became clear soon that TNN had no vision of ECW being anything beyond a lead-in for Roller Jam.

[cabbageboy 0]

It was certainly the beginning of the end for ECW, but there was some awesome stuff on there. Any show that in a 1 year span produced matches like RVD/Lynn, Tanaka/Awesome, Mikey/Tajiri vs. The FBI, etc. can't be all bad.

 

Oddly enough I think losing the Dudleys hurt worse than Taz. They were the company's top heels for most of 1998-99 and also the tag champs. Taz was the world champ but he might as well have left when he did, since he was just jobbing to RVD at some point (likely N2R 99) and wasn't likely to be pushed so hard again.

[Zack Malibu 0]

Taz was doing jobs at that point because they knew he was on the way out. To be fair, I always thought the idea of him being the first eliminated in the Awesome/Tanaka/Taz three way, in an effort to get the other two over as champions/credible threats was a good booking move. It was a way for the fans to get into the new blood and not be too focused on Taz leaving.

 

I do think that the Dudleys leaving hurt more than Taz though, as they were two of the top heels in the business at that time. Heels like Don Callis' Network bit reeked of "evil authority figure" and Steve Corino hadn't built his rep yet, so no one was taking him seriously.

[MillenniumMan831 0]

While it seems most in the IWC prefers the mid-90s era ECW, I really got into 1998-2001 ECW much more. I won't argue that it was better per se but it was nice seeing ECW running actual arenas consistently w/ the ECW arena being a monthly stop rather than a weekly stop.

 

I found the angles to be good stuff especially with the BREAKING NEWS updates that stopped the show dead in its tracks to report on RVD's injury, Tazz winning the ECW Title, ect.

 

Not to mention the consistently swank matches that were on national tv for the first time ever. A few years ago, I got the entire run on dvd and ripped through the 58ish eps in about a month or two.

 

I'd say the opening segment of the 2nd Hammerstein episode was the 2nd best segment in ECW history. Cyrus bullying Gertner, Heyman cracks Cyrus, Rhino gores Heyman then a cop, locker room empties, Kid Kash mosh pits his way into Rhino then hits a big dive on everyone, Sandman comes out and gets schooled by Rhino, RVD then comes out and wipes away Rhino for Kash to win the TV Title. Yeah, that was a lot and would probably get panned if it happened today due to "overbooking" but this was just right in my book.

 

Oh yeah, the best segment would be the Dreamer/Raven WrestlePalooza 97 hijinx w/ a WWF run-in, Sabu beating Taz, then Taz winning the TV Title all in one big ball of fun. But I could be talked into swapping #1 and #2.

[MillenniumMan831 0]

2x

[Zack Malibu 0]

That Wrestlepalooza episode of ECW (and it was before it got on TNN, so I don't mean to throw the thread off track) was, IMO, one of the best booked TV shows. It was also far better than the heavily praised Pit Bulls/Raven and Richards double dog collar match with the Dreamer pinning Raven/Fonzie getting chokeslammed melee. I believe in the book Hardcore History, that particular 1997 episode was noted as Heyman's favorite one ever.

[cabbageboy 0]

Zack, I was referring more to what Taz had to look forward to if he had stayed in ECW rather than jumping to the WWF. It was blatant that they were going to job him out to RVD at N2R 99 much the same way that they did anyway, with the Tanaka stuff being placeholder filler until they geared up the RVD feud.

 

This to me was one of Heyman's biggest booking errors. There was never a point in putting the belt on Mike Awesome. He and Tanaka had some great matches for the title, but neither guy was over outside of that particular feud and clearly fans wanted RVD to be the champ. Heyman panicked when Taz signed with the WWF and jobbed him at the first opportunity, but why? Taz couldn't go anywhere until Jan. 2000, so he wasn't taking the belt with him. There was no Montreal situation. Heyman should have kept the title on Taz, then gone with the RVD feud as planned, maybe Taz threatens to take the belt to NY with him, RVD becomes ECW's last hope of regaining their own title, etc. Then you use Taz to put over RVD in a truly meaningful way on his last PPV, and from there go into a variety of cool stuff like RVD/Sabu, RVD/Awesome, RVD/Tanaka.

[PILLS! PILLS! PILLS! 0]

I'd say the opening segment of the 2nd Hammerstein episode was the 2nd best segment in ECW history. Cyrus bullying Gertner, Heyman cracks Cyrus, Rhino gores Heyman then a cop, locker room empties, Kid Kash mosh pits his way into Rhino then hits a big dive on everyone, Sandman comes out and gets schooled by Rhino, RVD then comes out and wipes away Rhino for Kash to win the TV Title. Yeah, that was a lot and would probably get panned if it happened today due to "overbooking" but this was just right in my book.

 

I've seen that opening segment a number of times. Really great stuff. The look on Heyman's face as he takes in the moment, just after smashing the cell phone over Cyrus' skull, it just amazing. How he conveys his disgust for "The Network" (the faction, but really, TNN itself), without saying a word, was good TV. It really was his last hurrah in his company. That entire segment was a great "ECW vs. The Network" moment.

[The Flamboyance 0]

ECW on TNN was my favorite hour of wrestling when I was 11 or 12. I remember just abandoning my friends and running to my house to catch it every Friday night. Then I would try to get everybody in my class into ECW by bringing in tapes of some episodes. I miss those times.

 

I think 98-2001 ECW was better than mid nineties stuff because they focused less on hardcore stuff, and more on wrestling. Since they lost a lot of their main guys, they had to try new things. Some of their mid nineties stuff is almost unwatchable for me, but I watched a few ppvs from 99 and 2000 and some old TNN episodes last year, and had a blast watching it all.

[NoCalMike 0]

It wasn't horrible, but it was apparent that Heyman was trying to make the best out of a bad situation with the state of ECW, and a network that treated ECW as a pawn to try and get Roller Jam and whatever that basketball on Trampoline show was!?!

 

Still managed to have a lot of good matches and shows, but anyone who watched the syndicated show in the mid-late 90's knows it just wasn't the same.

[CanadianGuitarist 0]

I can't really bring anything to the table that wasn't already said, so I'll comment on a few, well, comments:

 

* The Hammerstein bit with Cyrus and Rhino and then everyone is probably my first thought of ECW today - it really kind of summed it all up, didn't it? Lots going on at a time, overbooking, but fantastic characters, Heyman taking a bump for his company, and everyone kind of pitching in.

 

* While the Dudleys leaving probably hurt more directly than did Taz's departure, I think Taz leaving created a huge booking hole in the world title. Credible and Rhino weren't ready in the summer of '99, RVD couldn't lose the TV title but retain credibility. Sandman just didn't quite fit as a legitimate world champ, Sabu was too iffy, and Crazy and Tajiri wouldn't work - it was really down to Awesome and Tanaka, who, at the very least, had some phenomenal matches to help the title out. Conversely, the Impact Players was a perfect vehicle to get Credible pushed for the following spring, while keeping the tag division propped. Couple that with formed tandems of (take your pick of) Balls, Axl, Spike, and New Jack, along with the FBI, Nova/Chetti, and Doring/Roadkill, and the tag division was kept credible.

 

* On that, the three-team angle of Awesome/Raven, Impact Players, and Tanaka/Dreamer, I though, was phenomenal, and really helped establish Mike Awesome, who may go down as one of the most underrated wrestlers ever. Sadly, he'll probably be remembered for his midnight departure to WCW and the sad circumstances of his death, as opposed to some of the best matches in ECW history.

 

* It's kind of unfortunate that an angle based so much on reality, essentially foreshadowing ECW's demise, was one of its best - it led to the launch of Rhino and Steve Corino, and Cyrus is still one of my favourite heels ever. Moreover, it helped re-establish one of the unique aspects made ECW a household name in the first place - fan loyalty to the company instead of a specific wrestler. That was potentially going to be lost when ECW began reaching a new audience.

 

* RollerJam kicked ass.

 

* I know this is kind of contradictory, but even though mid-90's ECW was better wrestling, TNN holds up a lot better today. It can't all be the production values, can it?

 

* Ultimately, TNN's decisions didn't make a whole of sense from a business standpoint (at least, knowing what we know), but I think it's unfair to blame them entirely. TNN didn't kill ECW, but it did run over it.

[NoCalMike 0]

* I know this is kind of contradictory, but even though mid-90's ECW was better wrestling, TNN holds up a lot better today. It can't all be the production values, can it?

 

Possibly, because ECW on TNN was produced more as a traditional wrestling program. ECW's old syndicated show was almost a companion piece to the internet, in that unless you were living in the Philly area(and or lived in an area ECW frequented making it possible to attend shows), all you got of ECW was a a snipet of 43 minutes(cause of commercials) every week, so you mostly relied on the internet to find out everything that was happening during their big shows that they couldn't fit onto the hour show. Some of the bigger ECW Arena shows would provide for about 3-4 weeks of shows, but sometimes even then the tv audience would miss out on a lot of the promos and extended mic time certain workers got at shows.

 

In other words, ECW on TNN felt like a a product that was produced for TV, where as the old syndicated show felt more like someone just videotaping a wrestling show and broadcasting it. Both were enjoyable, just different.

[cabbageboy 0]

Guitarist, one thing you mentioned struck me as curious. Why do you think RVD would lose credibility if he lost the TV title in late 1999? He'd held the belt for about 18 months, so would he have really lost anything by losing at long last to Jerry Lynn? Ideally I think RVD should have lost the TV title on TNN in the match where Lynn had the broken ribs. The crowd that night was ready for the title change. From there RVD just says "Okay Jerry you finally won ONE, enjoy your belt. I'm going for the world title." And then go right into RVD/Taz for N2R. RVD wins the belt, Taz leaves.

[CanadianGuitarist 0]

It wouldn't have destroyed his credibility, but it was a very tough thing to pull off. "Hey, I just lost to a guy with broken ribs, a rookie, or a guy who weighs 80 pounds less than I do. If anyone can win the world title, it's me!"

 

As I said, it wouldn't have killed him, but it would have been a little tough. On the other hand, if anyone could get away with it, it would have been RVD.

[Chief32 0]

That Wrestlepalooza episode of ECW (and it was before it got on TNN, so I don't mean to throw the thread off track) was, IMO, one of the best booked TV shows. It was also far better than the heavily praised Pit Bulls/Raven and Richards double dog collar match with the Dreamer pinning Raven/Fonzie getting chokeslammed melee. I believe in the book Hardcore History, that particular 1997 episode was noted as Heyman's favorite one ever.

 

 

Correct.

 

That hour of Hardcore TV featured Dreamer versus Ranven for the last time, the Lawler ECW Arena debut and carnage, and Sabu beating Taz immediately followed by the impromtu Taz-Douglas TV Title match where Taz chokes him out.

 

Phenomenal stuff.

[Zack Malibu 0]

Zack, I was referring more to what Taz had to look forward to if he had stayed in ECW rather than jumping to the WWF. It was blatant that they were going to job him out to RVD at N2R 99 much the same way that they did anyway, with the Tanaka stuff being placeholder filler until they geared up the RVD feud.

 

This to me was one of Heyman's biggest booking errors. There was never a point in putting the belt on Mike Awesome. He and Tanaka had some great matches for the title, but neither guy was over outside of that particular feud and clearly fans wanted RVD to be the champ. Heyman panicked when Taz signed with the WWF and jobbed him at the first opportunity, but why? Taz couldn't go anywhere until Jan. 2000, so he wasn't taking the belt with him. There was no Montreal situation. Heyman should have kept the title on Taz, then gone with the RVD feud as planned, maybe Taz threatens to take the belt to NY with him, RVD becomes ECW's last hope of regaining their own title, etc. Then you use Taz to put over RVD in a truly meaningful way on his last PPV, and from there go into a variety of cool stuff like RVD/Sabu, RVD/Awesome, RVD/Tanaka.

 

I see your point in that Taz could have been used to finally, officially transition the standard bearer of ECW as well as the title to RVD, cementing him as the franchise of the brand. However, knowing Heyman's mind, he likely felt RVD was over enough (and there's truth to that, since RVD was already the most popular guy in the company) and he could create a new main event talent or two by having Taz beaten in that three way. So I can see what he was trying to do, and I can also see your point that it could have put RVD in a better position than he wound up in (ie: having his promised World Title run ruined by Awesome's jump and the broken ankle).

[DMann2003 0]

Guitarist, one thing you mentioned struck me as curious. Why do you think RVD would lose credibility if he lost the TV title in late 1999? He'd held the belt for about 18 months, so would he have really lost anything by losing at long last to Jerry Lynn? Ideally I think RVD should have lost the TV title on TNN in the match where Lynn had the broken ribs. The crowd that night was ready for the title change. From there RVD just says "Okay Jerry you finally won ONE, enjoy your belt. I'm going for the world title." And then go right into RVD/Taz for N2R. RVD wins the belt, Taz leaves.

 

I would've been fine with the title change taking place that night, cause I was at that taping.

[cabbageboy 0]

After all the times Lynn had jobbed to RVD seeing Jerry finally get ONE win for the TV title wouldn't have hurt RVD one iota. The entire booking direction of ECW in 1999 was screwed up by that Taz defection: RVD should have eventually put over Lynn, then Taz should have put over RVD.

 

RVD needed to be the world champion. The notion of a guy being over enough to not need the belt is fine if that guy has already held the title. RVD hadn't held the world title so it was like his character at some point NEEDED the belt. He was a cocky braggart who wanted as many belts as possible: TV title, tag titles with Sabu, etc.

 

Sabu's heel turn on RVD to side with Awesome is one of the best unfinished angles ever. It was beautifully done and made sense on so many levels: Sabu teamed with Awesome in Japan, he was fed up with RVD's abuse, etc. The beauty of the angle is that Sabu and RVD's in fighting had become almost second nature. We had gotten used to RVD making wisecracks about Sabu, or Sabu occasionally challenging him for the TV title. But Sabu finally turned on him....and it was shocking. Of course Sabu left the company soon after, RVD got hurt, and Awesome jumped to WCW, so none of this ever had a real satisfying resolution, but it was a great initial angle.

[NoCalMike 0]

Well see thereinlie(d) the problem I guess with ECW on TNN. With a new audience, guys like RVD are new to them, and if Heyman is trying to get an entire new audience over with RVD, it might be dangerous to unload the belt.

 

Of course the people who followed ECW up to that point would still be all over RVD, but that is because they were familiar with his body of work, newer fans not so much.

 

Who knows how they would have reacted?

[NoCalMike 0]

Sabu's heel turn on RVD to side with Awesome is one of the best unfinished angles ever. It was beautifully done and made sense on so many levels: Sabu teamed with Awesome in Japan, he was fed up with RVD's abuse, etc. The beauty of the angle is that Sabu and RVD's in fighting had become almost second nature. We had gotten used to RVD making wisecracks about Sabu, or Sabu occasionally challenging him for the TV title. But Sabu finally turned on him....and it was shocking. Of course Sabu left the company soon after, RVD got hurt, and Awesome jumped to WCW, so none of this ever had a real satisfying resolution, but it was a great initial angle.

 

I agree 100% The turn had been teased so much that people were aching for it, and Sabu as a heel would have been perfect for the ECW atmosphere, as people would barely be able to bring themselves to boo on of their heroes, but would probably do it because they loved RVD even that much more by that time.

[Hasbeen2 0]

Rob Van Dam could have won the world title then gave up the secondary title. A tournament could have been held for that and it would have showcased 8 or even 16 wrestlers.

[Dobbs 3K 0]

Rob Van Dam could have won the world title then gave up the secondary title. A tournament could have been held for that and it would have showcased 8 or even 16 wrestlers.

 

The problem being they probably didn't even have 8 guys to realistically put in that role at the time.

 

I remember being really excited for ECW on TNN, because it was my first time to actually see ECW on TV (we never got the syndicated show in Wisconsin). However, it wasn't very good...the very first episode was a "best of" type thing, as I recall. After that, they actually did have some hot angles for a little bit, like Raven returning to team with Tommy Dreamer. However, the time slot was horrible...I had just entered college at the time, and had plenty of better things to do than try to remember to watch a third string wrestling show on Friday nights. Also, there were WAY too many commercial breaks. I would bet that in a one hour time slot, we maybe got 30 minutes of actual content.

[Silence 0]

The problem being they probably didn't even have 8 guys to realistically put in that role at the time.

 

I remember being really excited for ECW on TNN, because it was my first time to actually see ECW on TV (we never got the syndicated show in Wisconsin). However, it wasn't very good...the very first episode was a "best of" type thing, as I recall. After that, they actually did have some hot angles for a little bit, like Raven returning to team with Tommy Dreamer. However, the time slot was horrible...I had just entered college at the time, and had plenty of better things to do than try to remember to watch a third string wrestling show on Friday nights. Also, there were WAY too many commercial breaks. I would bet that in a one hour time slot, we maybe got 30 minutes of actual content.

 

I really felt deprived of wrestling in ECW when it was on TNN.

 

It's too bad Hardcore TV was on at 1 AM ET, because I wasn't staying up that late.

 

[Zack Malibu 0]

Rob Van Dam could have won the world title then gave up the secondary title. A tournament could have been held for that and it would have showcased 8 or even 16 wrestlers.

 

The problem being they probably didn't even have 8 guys to realistically put in that role at the time.

 

I remember being really excited for ECW on TNN, because it was my first time to actually see ECW on TV (we never got the syndicated show in Wisconsin). However, it wasn't very good...the very first episode was a "best of" type thing, as I recall. After that, they actually did have some hot angles for a little bit, like Raven returning to team with Tommy Dreamer. However, the time slot was horrible...I had just entered college at the time, and had plenty of better things to do than try to remember to watch a third string wrestling show on Friday nights. Also, there were WAY too many commercial breaks. I would bet that in a one hour time slot, we maybe got 30 minutes of actual content.

 

It could have been a great way to showcase some of the new talent, and maybe even lure in an international star or two. They could build up the tournament by showing clips of Malenko vs. Guerrero, Chris Jericho holding it, etc. As for 8 guys to put in it, you could have had...

 

Tajiri

Super Crazy

Little Guido

Jerry Lynn

Tommy Dreamer

Raven

Justin Credible

Lance Storm

Sandman

Rhino

Kid Kash

Masato Tanaka

Spike Dudley

Mikey Whipwreck

Guys like Psicosis, Dusty Rhodes, Antifaz Del Norte, etc. who were doing scattered shots for ECW at the time.

 

...and it would have been an interesting tournament. I don't think guys like Corino (at the time) or Scotty Anton should have been anywhere near the belt in 1999-2000, but you still had a core of ECW Originals that you could intersperse with the new blood and make for a good build to a new champion. You could have had, say, Jerry Lynn beat Raven in the first round, and Dreamer beat, say, Rhino. So in round 2 they face off, and Lynn could say something like "It took me one match to beat a guy it took you two years to pin once." Build your characters through the tournament.

[cabbageboy 0]

RVD wouldn't have given up the TV belt though. Bear in mind he had the TV and tag belts at the same time and was fine with defending both. It was in his whole character to want both the world title and TV belt. So he would have needed to lose the TV at some point. Maybe he could win the world title and then Lynn could finally beat him for the TV? But why would Lynn want a TV title shot instead of a world title shot?

 

I know! RVD must defend both belts in one night. He loses the TV title to Lynn early in a show, but then comes back to retain the world title in a main event against Lance Storm or whomever.

[BorneAgain 0]

It would not be hard to make Lynn look credible in winning the TV title from Van Dam. After all the matches the two had, its hardly out of the question that Jerry (a veteran no less) is the one who finally has RVD's number just because he's had more of a chance to figure him out than anybody.

 

From there just an angle with the likes of Sandman, Lynn, and Super Crazy fighting off the Network (Corino, Rhyno, Tajiri) would have probably worked.