HHH's vendetta against RVD

[dubq 0]

HHH is simply jealous of someone 1000x more over and talented than he could ever dream of being.

Good lord, Dames, maybe you should just create a static HHHate folder.. there are about 17 of these fucking threads going right now..

 

Moving on to the quote...

 

Okay, I like RVD.. but highspots do NOT equal talent. I think we all found that out with Jeff Hardy. Which is another thing I don't get. Most everyone on this board hates/hated Jeff Hardy.. yet he is essentially the same wrestler as Smark Darling #004, RVD. So, what's the deal? They're both sloppy highspot artists with a penchant for getting high. *gasp* Are smarks hypocrites?! NEVER!

[CanadianChick 0]

RVD isn't a smark favorite. At least 50% of smarks hate him.

[Jobber of the Week 0]

He's not the smark darling, but he does have his peeps here who keep insisting he could carry a main event feud. I doubt that.

 

Of course, most these people also feel Vince needs to use the ECW name again for some reason.

[Just call me Dan 0]

Main difference between Jeff and Rob is bumping. Rob still bumps with the best of them, whereas Jeff pussed out on a scoop slam.

[dubq 0]

RVD isn't a smark favorite. At least 50% of smarks hate him.

50 per cent, close enough. ;p What I mean is, aside from Jericho, RVD is the number one person that people mention -from what I've seen- when they bitch about HHH holding people down and how RVD deserves this and deserves that.

[dubq 0]

Main difference between Jeff and Rob is bumping. Rob still bumps with the best of them, whereas Jeff pussed out on a scoop slam.

Yeah, he can bump, but he can't sell worth shit. I can't count how many times I've seen the guy just STOP selling a body part that has been worked over for a whole match. And so on...

[Just call me Dan 0]

Admit it though, Jeff did neither AND didn't bump. Jesus it got REALLY bad. Rob can make his opponents moves look REALLY good. He is carryable. Jeff was obviously not. No one on Raw can carry RVD. Eddy, Benoit, Angle, maybe Taker could carry RVD just fine. I think it's fairly obvious not even they could carry Jeff.

[2GOLD 0]

I may be wrong..ok, I'm new so I sure I am wrong...

 

With that out of the way, isn't work rate really decided on how you adapt to different styles?

 

Triple H in his day had solid matches with anyone. Now he can barely move.

RVD misses moves but as a crowd pumper, he has to try them.

 

In his prime, I'd say Triple H was extremely talented. Now I doubt he can out work The Big Show.

 

Also, forearm shot would cause more damage than a punch I do believe.

[NoCalMike 0]

Umm no, Jeff Hardy was a poor man's RVD. His execution was horrible and he fucked just about everything up.

 

RVD when motivated is good. Not the best, not a top 10 worker, but he is plenty good. The Matter of Respect Match was better than the Stretcher match, IMO, and also better than pretty much anything Triple H has done.

 

Also everyone is ignoring the japan stuff. A lot of wrestlers are totally different workers when they go to Japan because over there, different aspects matter to the fans.

[CanadianChick 0]

With that out of the way, isn't work rate really decided on how you adapt to different styles?

Actually, I believe that work rate is the rate that you work at. In other words, the pace of the match.

[2GOLD 0]

I always felt like it was a combo of the two.

 

Like adapting to the style of your opponent and knowing how to pace the match to fit the style.

[Invictus 0]

I'm sure HHH is envious of those "gay" looking punches that RVD is still throwing.

 

He doesn't throw punches at all, he throws forearm blows. Some people say that they look weak, but they would actually have quite the stunning effect.

I've had people walk in the room while I was watching an RVD match, and they would honestly say that they now KNEW wrestling was totally fake after seeing RVD throw some of his "Stunning forearms". Honestly, he does them so lightly it absolute destroys kayfabe. In fact, majority of RVD's moveset makes no sense and hurts kayfabe. A good example is Rolling Thunder: It looks like RVD breaks his spine doing the move, not exactly a great "offensive" move when it looks like it hurts you more than your opponent.

 

I will give RVD this, he is carryable, and can have entertaining matches at times. But he should never be main event.

 

Oh, and Razazteca, many people have wrestled these same "300 lb roid monsters" and gotten very respectable matches out of them. So that isn't much of an excuse for Robby boy.

[Guest JMA]

I would say that Triple H was better in his prime (in fact, he was great) than RVD, but not now. But to be fair, they have two totally different styles.

[El Psycho Diablo 0]

Wait, you mean wrestling ability matters in this company? The three biggest stars they've had are Hogan, Austin, and Rock. As good as Austin supposedly was, he sure had the same paint-by-numbers, spot-spot-spot match a hell of a lot of nights. Truth is, being a good wrestler has never been a requirement in this company. Neither has being able to sell. Really, the whole harping on selling thing is very much a smark bitch point, and that's all. Not everybody has to be Jesus H. Benoit (I won't get started there, though) because it simply isn't required. It's been shown that the casuals will pop for a spot as much or more than they would for technical wrestling.

 

How many of the best wrestlers in the company were jobbers, or just high-midcarders used to put over main event talent?

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

As far as the "better worker" argument goes...I don't think anybody was ever arguing that RVD is a good worker.

 

RVDMARK4:20 and NoCalMike are.

[Fökai 0]

As good as Austin supposedly was, he sure had the same paint-by-numbers, spot-spot-spot match a hell of a lot of nights.

 

Now HOLD ON a minute there. As much as you may disagree, in the years of 1997 and 2001, I'd put him as the best wrestler in North America.

 

The man was successful in working ****+ ...

 

--brawls (Wrestlemania v. Bret, OTE '98 v. Foley, NWO 2001 v. HHH),

 

--old-school wrestling clinics (v. Bret at SurSer '96, v. Angle 01/08/01)

 

--"WWE-Style" mish-mash of everything (X-7 v. Rocky, Unforgiven 1998 v. Foley, Rebellion 2001 v. Rocky)

 

--tag matches (v. Bulldog/Owen with both Foley & HBK)

 

--the old heel/face dynamic (Summerslam 2001 v. Angle, Unforgiven 2001 v. Angle)

 

Not to mention stuff that I've either never seen, or can't categorize them:

• v. Savio Vega (Beware of Dog)
• v. Mero (KOTR 1996)
• v. Vader/Bret/Taker (Final Four 1997)
• v. Taker (A Cold Day in Hell 1997)
• v. Bret Hart (Revenge of the Taker 1997)
• v. HBK (KOTR 1997)
• v. Mankind (Survivor Series 1998)
• v. Mankind & HHH (Summerslam 1999)
• v. Angle (10.08.01 RAW)
• v. Jericho (Vengeance 2001)
• v. Angle (01/28/02 RAW)

I'm sure there's alot more. Edited September 25, 2003 by bravesfan

[Guest Ray]

I'm sure there's alot more.

Uh yeah ,you forgot the BENOIT matches!

 

Raw - 11/20/00

Raw - 5/21/01

Raw - 5/28/01

SD - 5/31/01

 

Those can't be left out of any discussion of Austin's greatness.

 

 

Back to the topic a bit, I've never seen a Van Dam match as good as Royal Rumble or Fully Loaded 2000.

[humongous2002 0]

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, some people love those highspot matches and there are those that love the normal wrestling matches, you can't never have 2 people agreeing which one is the best. In my eyes if a wrestler or wrestlers have the capacity to get the fans into a match and make them care for it then that makes it a good match without relying on jumping from Titantrons or practically almost killing yourself just for the sake of doing your bump of the year routine.

Now back to the topic of HHH and RVD, it's obvious that HGH felt threatened of loosing his spot to Rob, a guy that got over w/o any fanfare from WWE. There were talks of making RVD into a main eventer when he got over in less than a few weeks, but it seems someone made Vince change his mind. If HHH didn't have any problems with Rob he would've done the right thing by jobbing for him last year, and at least give him the chance to either shine or fail as a main eventer. Now i laugh my ass off at some of the comments the RVD haters come out with for not giving Rob a main event push(As of right now w/o counting his Kane angle, RVD hasn't gotten any type of push period, either as a main eventer or a midcarder, it's like the writers got nothing for him), the RVD haters say that he is too sloppy, he is one dimensional, he is not a ratings draw(even though when he first join WWE the ratings were still 4.0 and up) and his workrate sucks, if anything it sounds to me that they are describing Goldberg, who is by the way, RAW champion. Lesnar is another guy that comes into my mind, he is not a ratings or a buyrate draw , he might have better workrate than Goldberg but with the way he is being push, he hasn't delivered any increases in ratings or ppv buyrates.

RVD has all the tools to be a main eventer, the only thing he is missing is Vince's approval , the fans are dying to see him get treated like the superstar that he is, hopefully Vince realizes that he could make money with Rob by pushing him, not by burying him and pissing off all the RVD fans out there.

[Corey_Lazarus 0]

RVD is constantly over, puts on matches that make the fans happy, and is an incredible athlete. Sure, he's a terrible WRESTLER, but he's one of the better spot-machines in wrestling history. He's not injury prone, and given a solid opponent, can have a very good match.

So, tell me why he's barely in the IC title hunt, while Goldberg (who is LESS over, has LESS talent, and is a prime factor in why WCW went down) is the top guy?

[clean rob 0]

In fact, majority of RVD's moveset makes no sense and hurts kayfabe.

Don't pretty much everyone's? If you ask me the Swandive Headbutt makes way less sense than anything RVD does.

 

Bottom line as I see it is that whilst RVD's matches tend to be spotty and somewhat badly put together, HHH's are often tedious pseudo-squashes with little depth. Both bad, just in different ways. Personally, I'd rather watch a stupid but fun RVD match than HHH doing the old slow methodical schtick - but that's not the point. The point is that HHH and RVD are on a pretty similar level in terms of crowd reaction, despit the fact that Rob has never been given a decent feud that he's looked strong in, or a sustained main event push, whereas HHH - well you know.

 

The ratings are in the shitter anyway, why Vince won't just take a chance and give RVD a decent push is beyond me. It might utterly bomb, if it does then it's back to the midcard for Rob. BUT there's a chance that it might make Vince some money, and that's what he's all about right?

[Guest TheAnvil]

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, some people love those highspot matches and there are those that love the normal wrestling matches, you can't never have 2 people agreeing which one is the best. In my eyes if a wrestler or wrestlers have the capacity to get the fans into a match and make them care for it then that makes it a good match without relying on jumping from Titantrons or practically almost killing yourself just for the sake of doing your bump of the year routine.

Now back to the topic of HHH and RVD, it's obvious that HGH felt threatened of loosing his spot to Rob, a guy that got over w/o any fanfare from WWE. There were talks of making RVD into a main eventer when he got over in less than a few weeks, but it seems someone made Vince change his mind. If HHH didn't have any problems with Rob he would've done the right thing by jobbing for him last year, and at least give him the chance to either shine or fail as a main eventer. Now i laugh my ass off at some of the comments the RVD haters come out with for not giving Rob a main event push(As of right now w/o counting his Kane angle, RVD hasn't gotten any type of push period, either as a main eventer or a midcarder, it's like the writers got nothing for him), the RVD haters say that he is too sloppy, he is one dimensional, he is not a ratings draw(even though when he first join WWE the ratings were still 4.0 and up) and his workrate sucks, if anything it sounds to me that they are describing Goldberg, who is by the way, RAW champion. Lesnar is another guy that comes into my mind, he is not a ratings or a buyrate draw , he might have better workrate than Goldberg but with the way he is being push, he hasn't delivered any increases in ratings or ppv buyrates.

RVD has all the tools to be a main eventer, the only thing he is missing is Vince's approval , the fans are dying to see him get treated like the superstar that he is, hopefully Vince realizes that he could make money with Rob by pushing him, not by burying him and pissing off all the RVD fans out there.

 

 

This has to be the worst argument I've ever seen in my entire life. Do you understand the fundamentals of debate? Ok...I'll break it down for you. You stated "Now i laugh my ass off at some of the comments the RVD haters come out with for not giving Rob a main event push(As of right now w/o counting his Kane angle, RVD hasn't gotten any type of push period, either as a main eventer or a midcarder, it's like the writers got nothing for him), the RVD haters say that he is too sloppy, he is one dimensional, he is not a ratings draw(even though when he first join WWE the ratings were still 4.0 and up) and his workrate sucks, if anything it sounds to me that they are describing Goldberg, who is by the way, RAW champion."

 

First and foremost, Goldberg is one of the most hated workers in the company on this forum. So, how does this confirm/deny any of the arguments against RVD? You didn't address the issues at hand in any form. You just showed your blind hate for Goldberg. Make points to prove your opinion. It usually helps if they are facts.

 

(As of right now w/o counting his Kane angle, RVD hasn't gotten any type of push period, either as a main eventer or a midcarder, it's like the writers got nothing for him),

 

You mean his IC Title feud with Chris Benoit wasn't a push? I believe he even went over at a major PPV to bring the Title back to RAW. That constitutes a push in my book. Sure, it's not the top of the card, but there are only so many spots at the top.

 

the RVD haters say that he is too sloppy, he is one dimensional, he is not a ratings draw

 

Well, can you look me in the eyes and tell me you think RVD is a crisp technical worker without laughing? Every RVD match has at LEAST one botched spot. Look at the PPV match with Jericho and Christian. These guys are veterans in the ring, and spots were blown left and right. RVD is sloppy. His style is sloppy. It's the nature of his style. He uses high-spots, and those are "high-risk maneuvers" as the commentators would say. They are just that, the chance of a slip and or miss are high.

 

RVD is one-dimensional. Do you think that RVD could wrestle a match without the top-rope? Does any of his offense (other than the 5-star or split-legged moonsault) look like it could get a pinfall? He's a spot wrestler with little-to-no psychology. He has bad transition moves, and he couldn't sell water in the Sahara.

 

RVD has all the tools to be a main eventer, the only thing he is missing is Vince's approval

 

RVD lacks almost everything it takes to be a main-eventer. His skills on the mic are poor, maybe even worse than Chris Benoit's. Do you think RVD could go to the ring like HHH and cut a 5-10 minute promo? Be honest, there is no way in hell. He has the charisma of Linda MacMahon.

 

His ring work leaves tons to be desired. He has a great finish, and the crowd pops for it, but that doesn't make a match. His matches seem to lack continuity, and psychology is near non-existant. Let's not even get into selling.

 

His character doesn't relate to fans. What made Austin's run as Champ so great? Everyone could relate. We all have some sort of issues with an authority figure, and we wished we could kick the shit out of our boss. Fans related to Austin. Who's gonna relate to RVD? What does RVD represent? Stoners? Drugs aren't cool. Bottom line.

[Papacita 0]

Oh, one more thing. Van Dam should NOT be a main eventer. He came in to WWE and got huge pops, but the ratings didn't go through the roof, did they? He shouldn't have been buried like he was, but he also shouldn't be a constant main eventer as many seem think...

I don't think that's fair, because no one person is gonna cause ratings to go through the roof. That has more to do with the overall quality of the programming than anything else.

[Guest TheAnvil]

In fact, majority of RVD's moveset makes no sense and hurts kayfabe.

Don't pretty much everyone's? If you ask me the Swandive Headbutt makes way less sense than anything RVD does.

 

Bottom line as I see it is that whilst RVD's matches tend to be spotty and somewhat badly put together, HHH's are often tedious pseudo-squashes with little depth. Both bad, just in different ways. Personally, I'd rather watch a stupid but fun RVD match than HHH doing the old slow methodical schtick - but that's not the point. The point is that HHH and RVD are on a pretty similar level in terms of crowd reaction, despit the fact that Rob has never been given a decent feud that he's looked strong in, or a sustained main event push, whereas HHH - well you know.

 

The ratings are in the shitter anyway, why Vince won't just take a chance and give RVD a decent push is beyond me. It might utterly bomb, if it does then it's back to the midcard for Rob. BUT there's a chance that it might make Vince some money, and that's what he's all about right?

So dropping a headbutt to your opponent's shoulder (usually the targer of the headbutt) doesn't make sense for Benoit, being as his submission finish works that area?

 

I guess this is where I differ. I'd rather watch a slow methodical match that has psychology than some piece of garbage spotfest. Give me Greg Valentine slowly working the leg over any day. Flair and Bret Hart worked slow-paced matches that centered around isolating a body part. Their matches weren't boring, but they definately weren't high octane. That's what WRESTLING is to me. It's not some guy going out there and hitting his spots. It's a story in the ring.

[Spaceman Spiff 0]

        -=Mike --- Who wishes Hurricane would be given a I-C Title program instead of RVD

Time for me to say once again that Helms could be to Evolution what Malenko was for the Horsemen, if he'd agree to give up that stupid midcarder gimmick.

 

While the S.H.I.T stuff is getting pops which is more than some midcarders (Christian?) it's not going to legitimately elevate anyone. Hurricane turning on Rosey at this point could actually serve as a decent enough heel turn though.

I've been begging for a Helms heel turn for a while now. Drop the superhero gimmick, cut a promo about comic books being for losers, signing autographs for kids instead of hooking up w/ chicks, and bring back the Sugar Shane name.

 

I'd prefer he go back to SD to do it, but if it means getting a push, I wouldn't be averse to him hanging w/ Evolution.

I can't whole-heartedly agree there because he'd more than likely be playing the EXACT same charcter as Hardy. I can't have that. Sugar shane Helms is a great and catch name, and he could just lighten up his current attire a bit. Problem still remains that the guy has a pretty bad speech problem, and that takes away from his interview skills (which I'm not too high on). His voice just sucks, IMO.

I'd have him as a pretty boy dick heel, which is different from what Matt's doing.

 

Hopefully he could work on his promo/speech skills. Nobody though Matt Hardy could cut a promo to save his life, and yet he got pretty damn good on the mic.

[Guest Goodear]

This conspiracy stuff is always fun and all but if I was Triple H I wouldn't be jealous of much of anyone. After all, I am the one at the top of the heap and has all the control in the world.

 

If you are really looking for a reason why Hunter doesn't want Rob on top well ... Rob has managed to injure HHH twice now and I could really see that playing a part in keeping RVD out of the title scene.

[Ripper 0]

Everyone really makes me laugh when they try to point out flaws in a sport that is minutes upon minutes of chorographed fake fighting. EVERY SINGLE MATCH WILL HAVE FLAWS. Of course, RVD "SUCKS DOOD" so you can call his flaws the reason that the most over guy in the promotion for about 6 months SHOULDN't be in the Main Event scene.

 

I remember the Beniot/RVD match where everyone bitched about RVD not selling the shoulder later in the match, but ignored Beniot forgeting to roll out of the way on a Frog Splash. That's what I am talking about here. Which one really took away from the match more. Which one got bitched about more.

 

RVD performs to the crowd. His matches in Japan were a great show of the Japanese style. When in ECW the point was to get the crowd amped and he did so, while still incorporating some of the best match to match psychology I have seen in a while in the Jerry Lynn series. In the WWE, he wrestled a longer, more kicky punchy(well...fore army) style the is the WWE and got to keep 2-3 of his spots. And he produced some damn fine matches from it.

 

RVD/Jeff Hardy from Invasion featured practically no blown spots. You could see them going out there to pop the crowd and putting so much effort into it. RVD had great matches with a large amount of guys, and good matches with some midcarder. AND he gave Undertaker his best match in YEARS (yes, the match for the Hardcore title is STILL the best match taker has had in at least 3-4 years...better than the angle matches.) And please stop saying that TAKER carried him in that match...thats just reaching.

 

HHH, who you all call a better worker, works a style that is next to impossible to blow spots...and it still happens. It is the nature of the sport. YOUR favorite wrestler blows spots. No more or no less than RVD. But guess which wrestler you are waiting to blow one and which guy you are waiting to ignore the blown spots.

 

I will say this. RVD'S worse matches don't come to near the level of suckiness that the HHH bad matches go to.

[dubq 0]

RVD is constantly over, puts on matches that make the fans happy, and is an incredible athlete. Sure, he's a terrible WRESTLER, but he's one of the better spot-machines in wrestling history. He's not injury prone, and given a solid opponent, can have a very good match.

So, tell me why he's barely in the IC title hunt, while Goldberg (who is LESS over, has LESS talent, and is a prime factor in why WCW went down) is the top guy?

Goldberg may be shite in the wrestling department, but at least he has an ounce of charisma and ring presence..

[KTID 0]

There's really no point in arguing with most of you.

[Invictus 0]

Well you tend to be a little biased in your opinion of him, eh RVDMARK4:20?

 

Paul Heyman could see through RVD's flaws in ECW, and was able to protect him and make him look like gold because his flaws were always covered by the right workers/situations.

 

In WWE, RVD has no such luxuries, so we see how "great" he truly is.

[KTID 0]

Me? biased? never!